Are Victorians holding football back?

[SweetLeftFoot]

So your club doesn't ask for home games against Carlton?

Of course we do.

You flog home games to the Gold Coast.

What about it?

The fact remains that you rail against AFL assistance for clubs and claim you want to cull Victorian clubs, yet ignore the fact that without AFL assistance your club would have died.

Dead. No more. An ex club. Gone to the great competition in the sky.

And your club has yet to repay the money that allowed it survive.

As I have always said, I'll take that kind of free market crap - unrealistic and unlikely as it is - from the likes of West Coast and Adelaide types.

But Carlton?

CARLTON?

 

[invinciBlues]

No I don't,

I just despise hypocrisy especially ill informed hypocrisy.

You say you want to cull Victorian teams yet ignore the fact your team has been the most financially stuffed of any of late.

Your own people said it: you were worse than Fitzroy.

Well, you seem to list the "cheating", "off field money issues" and "on field shitness" as separate issues, but in reality they should be looked at as a whole.

And yes, the salary cap thing almost killed Carlton. But it didn't. And we'll be strong once again. Can North say the same? I'd be interested in what their 5 year plan is to deal with the lack of draft picks.

As for the "worse than Fitzroy", one person said that. Not "people". And that guy was sacked later that day.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

I mean, had he read further into the thread he might've seen a gradual change in my opinion on the matter, nothing major, but I conceded to points I felt fair.

Well you stirred him a fair bit in that post that I saw... if you seek to tone that down more often, I'm sure you'll get a less confrontational response in return. As was the case with you and I on threads, of course, back when there was more fire and brimstone issuing forth in our discussions.

And honestly, it is disingenuous in the extreme to be singling North Melbourne out, when your own club has, it's safe to say I think, had far more substantial issues off the field, found itself struggling to survive to a substantially greater extent, and been much more in need of assistance.

(If only Fitzroy had received anywhere NEAR that kind of support, of course, instead of the kicks in the head we received over and over again during our last 12 years in the AFL But that's another story, of course)

To quote Matthew 7:5 - first cast the beam out of your own eye; and then shall you see clearly to cast the mote out of your brother's eye

 

[invinciBlues]

The fact remains that you rail against AFL assistance for clubs and claim you want to cull Victorian clubs, yet ignore the fact that without AFL assistance your club would have died.

Dead. No more. An ex club. Gone to the great competition in the sky.

And your club has yet to repay the money that allowed it survive.

Isn't it a better option to sure your own footing first? There's no rush to pay back the AFL, and until they send a reminder, why do you have such an issue?

As I have always said, I'll take that kind of free market crap - unrealistic and unlikely as it is - from the likes of West Coast and Adelaide types.

But Carlton?

CARLTON?

I don't think I've even mentioned North's finances in this thread? I'm sure my only argument was more focused on the talent pool and it being a better representation of Australia to sure its footing.

A couple of teams go back to the VFL, it'd be good for the state competition.

You been arguing this case for North for no doubt a long and heated time. Maybe you should take a breather.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

. And we'll be strong once again. Can North say the same? I'd be interested in what their 5 year plan is to deal with the lack of draft picks.

Yes we can.

As regards draft picks, we've never had a priority pick, we've never had a 1 pick.

We do OK without needing that kind of stuff.

You worry about your own lot. We'll concern ourselves with ourselves.

Helpfully though, I can give you a started list of issues at Carlton you can think about:

1) Paying back the AFL the money they lent you to stop you going under

2) Figuring out who will kick goals now Fev is gone.

 

[TooFar]

I'm sorry to put Adelaide there but I'm jsut pointing out that we need a bit of culture! How would you feel if people were calling for your club to move down a grade 'becoz u can stil injoy your club at VFL and we can hv more $$'? Emotions sometimes get in the way of logic and it was a childish argument

But that is exactly what happened in SA & WA, teams with 100 year old history were suddenly delegated down a grade. It seems that that is okay, but when there is talk of doing the same thing to Victorian clubs, all hell breaks loose. If you are all so concerned about grass roots footy, why didn't you support the SANFL's move to create a truly national competition in the 80's? Because the truth is you were only concern with pinching as many interstate players as possible to prop up you own clubs - you care nothing for suburban footy, history is proof.

The hypocrisy in the thread is unbelievable. I have no sympathy what so ever for struggling Victorian clubs, you made this bed, now lie in it!

 

[invinciBlues]

Yes we can.

As regards draft picks, we've never had a priority pick, we've never had a 1 pick.

We do OK without needing that kind of stuff.

You worry about your own lot. We'll concern ourselves with ourselves.

Helpfully though, I can give you a started list of issues at Carlton you can think about:

1) Paying back the AFL the money they lent you to stop you going under

2) Figuring out who will kick goals now Fev is gone.

Why do you keep prattling on about how great North are - thats not the purpose of the thread.

1. I don't actually care if we never pay the money back. Its a private dealing between Carlton and he AFL. They will sort it out amongst themselves.

2. So because Fev got shitcanned, I'm not allowed to have an opinion on any matter unless it deals with our forward line structure? This may come as a shock to you, but we do have coaching staff whose concern this is.

I sincerely doubt my opinion voiced on an internet site is going to have any bearing on whats going to happen next year on or off the field for Carlton. I realise you value and cherish these posts of mine, and I do appreciate your support, but I think the club will be just fine without my expert opinion. I understand that this might become you as troubling and haphazard by the boffins at Princes Park, but I assure you, they will figure it out.

 

[TooFar]

The WAFL and the SANFL were not exactly pushing for expansion of their leagues (through lack of willingness or ability) and the SANFL had to be dragged to the party in 1990 against their will.

Where else would a national competiton originate from if not from Victoria? From thin air?

The SANFL was pushing for a fair and equitable national competition in the 80’s. That is why they held out until they did, it was only Port Adelaide’s betrayal that made them move in 1990. The problem was you Victorians were only concerned with self preservation, not looking at the longer term picture. Now thanks to your own short sightedness, smaller Victorian clubs are struggling. There is a word here and it’s called Karma!

 

[ArachniX]

But that is exactly what happened in SA & WA, teams with 100 year old history were suddenly delegated down a grade. It seems that that is okay, but when there is talk of doing the same thing to Victorian clubs, all hell breaks loose. If you are all so concerned about grass roots footy, why didn't you support the SANFL's move to create a truly national competition in the 80's? Because the truth is you were only concern with pinching as many interstate players as possible to prop up you own clubs - you care nothing for suburban footy, history is proof.

The hypocrisy in the thread is unbelievable. I have no sympathy what so ever for struggling Victorian clubs, you made this bed, now lie in it!

Adelaide people were the ones that made the choice to support the Adelaide crows and desert their own league. That is not the fault of struggling Victorian clubs. It is your own fault. You were not forced.

As for not supporting the SANFLs national league in the 80s well it is that same mentality that exists these days. In case you haven't read most of this thread there are still people willing to sacrifice history and traditions for the so called betterment of the game.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Probably because the game is the best sport to watch in the world?

If you think otherwise I question why you even like AFL in the first place. Maybe you like it simply because of some history with one club, which is fine. I like football because it's extremely fun to watch, Hawthorn in the league or not I'll keep watching.

People like you are light on supporters of the game, more interested in "soul" that can never be measured except in a persons own head. You are the equivalent of a european that likes soccer because they follow a club. "following a club" makes some games bearable. Maybe you aren't a sportsman and are more a atmosphere guy. If you want the club atmosphere join the RSL.

Don't kid yourself. Club support is the lifeblood of the sport. You'd be lucky to fill Aurora Stadium with all the McAvaney-esque purists in the country.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

but I assure you, they will figure it out.

If they hadn't run the club into the ground off field and on field in the recent past, I might almost believe you.

 

[TooFar]

Adelaide people were the ones that made the choice to support the Adelaide crows and desert their own league. That is not the fault of struggling Victorian clubs. It is your own fault. You were not forced.

As for not supporting the SANFLs national league in the 80s well it is that same mentality that exists these days. In case you haven't read most of this thread there are still people willing to sacrifice history and traditions for the so called betterment of the game.

You need to learn some history buddy. Adelaide people were asked a number of times in the late 80’s if they would like to create a composite team and join the VFL and the majority voted no. I remember, as I was a SANFL member at the time and voted against it. That is why the player retention scheme was set up to try and keep a few of our best players in SA.

We wanted a true national competition, not an expanded VFL. But events forced the SANFL’s hand, first the WAFL broke ranks and accepted sub standard conditions and created the West Coast Eagles, thus cemented the expanded VFL model. Then Port Adelaide went behind the SANFL’s back, even though they had an agreement not too, and started negotiations to join the VFL. The SANFL then had an ultimatum, let the treacherous Port jump ship or form the Adelaide Crows. The Crows were up and running in less than 1 year.

If it had been up to me I would have preferred to see Stephen Kernahan lead a powerful Glenelg side to a national premiership than watch him lead Carlton. The Kernahan name was an institution at Glenelg. But as you Victorians only cared about your own selves, this was never to be. So much for your love of history and grass roots footy. So forgive me if I don’t give a f*ck what happens to the weaker Victorian clubs, you created this monster with you myopic greedy ways, now you suffer just as we have!

 

[Zvim]

You need to learn some history buddy. Adelaide people were asked a number of times in the late 80’s if they would like to create a composite team and join the VFL and the majority voted no. I remember, as I was a SANFL member at the time and voted against it. That is why the player retention scheme was set up to try and keep a few of our best players in SA.

We wanted a true national competition, not an expanded VFL. But events forced the SANFL’s hand, first the WAFL broke ranks and accepted sub standard conditions and created the West Coast Eagles, thus cemented the expanded VFL model. Then Port Adelaide went behind the SANFL’s back, even though they had an agreement not too, and started negotiations to join the VFL. The SANFL then had an ultimatum, let the treacherous Port jump ship or form the Adelaide Crows. The Crows were up and running in less than 1 year.

If it had been up to me I would have preferred to see Stephen Kernahan lead a powerful Glenelg side to a national premiership than watch him lead Carlton. The Kernahan name was an institution at Glenelg. But as you Victorians only cared about your own selves, this was never to be. So much for your love of history and grass roots footy. So forgive me if I don’t give a f*ck what happens to the weaker Victorian clubs, you created this monster with you myopic greedy ways, now you suffer just as we have!

VFL did what SANationalFL and WAFL wanted to do but couldn't, that was expand their leagues to be the first national competition.

We were either going to have a lot of Vic clubs or a lot of SA clubs or a lot of WA clubs. A national competition was inevitable, the other leagues were just too slow. It was NEVER going to be a true national competition, it would have always been an expanded state based competition.

 

[BIGBEZ]

VFL did what SANationalFL and WAFL wanted to do but couldn't, that was expand their leagues to be the first national competition.

We were either going to have a lot of Vic clubs or a lot of SA clubs or a lot of WA clubs. A national competition was inevitable, the other leagues were just too slow. It was NEVER going to be a true national competition, it would have always been an expanded state based competition.

i feel his pain though even though I still get to see my team run around in the red and white, it will never be the same and it sounds like his beloved club ended up worse..

 

[greatwhiteshark]

You need to learn some history buddy. Adelaide people were asked a number of times in the late 80’s if they would like to create a composite team and join the VFL and the majority voted no. I remember, as I was a SANFL member at the time and voted against it. That is why the player retention scheme was set up to try and keep a few of our best players in SA.

We wanted a true national competition, not an expanded VFL. But events forced the SANFL’s hand, first the WAFL broke ranks and accepted sub standard conditions and created the West Coast Eagles, thus cemented the expanded VFL model. Then Port Adelaide went behind the SANFL’s back, even though they had an agreement not too, and started negotiations to join the VFL. The SANFL then had an ultimatum, let the treacherous Port jump ship or form the Adelaide Crows. The Crows were up and running in less than 1 year.

If it had been up to me I would have preferred to see Stephen Kernahan lead a powerful Glenelg side to a national premiership than watch him lead Carlton. The Kernahan name was an institution at Glenelg. But as you Victorians only cared about your own selves, this was never to be. So much for your love of history and grass roots footy. So forgive me if I don’t give a f*ck what happens to the weaker Victorian clubs, you created this monster with you myopic greedy ways, now you suffer just as we have!

Victorians simply don't understand mate, they don't understand the same feeling they currently have for their club we had for our WAFL or SANFL club.
Now our club is in a second tier league and we support a composite team in the AFL.
As much as I am a member and follow the Eagles with some passion they will never be in my heart as West Perth are.
Victorians don't seem to care to much about that though and I guess why should they?

So like you if teams fold, relocate or whatever I don't give a flying ****. In fact if anyone had any sense the 6 interstate teams should just invite 6 victorian teams and start their own comp.
Lets face it if the game is purely about money now which it seems it is then the interstate sides are the biggest, WCE, AC, Sydney and Brisbane and even Freo have unlimited funding and sponsors, they could lose their major sponsor tomorrow and not lose a nights sleep over it as tomorrow another will jump in.

What Victorians should do is be very thankfull that some of their second rate, second tier clubs just happened to end up in the AFL because of geography. Not because they earnt the right to be in the premier comp in the country.

The WAFL is to blame also for putting in a side into the VFL, the 4 million they paid to do so could have been spent on the WAFL and retaining players here.

Bottom line is that is the way it is now, but cry me a river over your struggling clubs. Stand up and be counted, stop relying on others or **** off.

 

[Ron The Bear]

What Victorians should do is be very thankfull that some of their second rate, second tier clubs just happened to end up in the AFL because of geography. Not because they earnt the right to be in the premier comp in the country.

Fine, but if Richmond hadn't been part of the expanded comp, I probably wouldn't care much about the AFL.

A composite Victorian team, or even two or three teams, would've been far too strong for the local Perth and Adelaide clubs. The VFL was the only competition strong enough to undertake such expansion. WA and SA either had to join, or continue to lose their best players to the top comp.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Not because they earnt the right to be in the premier comp in the country.

Or because the VFL is the strongest of the three competitions, or because there's substantially more overall support for the game in Victoria through sheer weight of numbers than there is elsewhere...

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Or because the VFL is the strongest of the three competitions, or because there's substantially more overall support for the game in Victoria through sheer weight of numbers than there is elsewhere...

Yes I agree it was the strongest comp, but the 10 victorian clubs were not the 10 strongest clubs in the country.

Again missing the point, it had to start somewhere and the VFL was the logical place. There is no need to keep defending what we all agree on.

Just stop asking every tom dick and harry to find some sort of love for clubs we don't give a flying **** about. These clubs that year in, year out need hand outs to survive simply need to come to the party or drop to a league which suits their financial status.
The fact that the comp itself needs a CBF is a blight on the comp.
The AFL should not be about protecting a clubs history, no one needs to fold. They should just play where they can afford to.

 

[TooFar]

Fine, but if Richmond hadn't been part of the expanded comp, I probably wouldn't care much about the AFL.

You say that now, and I said exactly the same thing many years ago about Glenelg. I grew up at Glenelg oval, started going there when I was about 4, was in the cheer squad, witness many grand final defeats and a few victories, rarely missed a game in many, many years, the Bays were a huge part of my life when I was growing up. I was devastated that Stick's would never again play for Glenelg. Broken hearted when all of our other home grown champs were stolen by Victorian teams. But there I was as an inaugural season ticket holder with the Crows, was at their first game against Hawthorn and have continued to support them ever since. I don't live in Adelaide any more, but when I still did, I used get down to Glenelg oval when I could, stand on the hill with my mates and the Snouts Louts, have a few beers and a pie and enjoy it.

A composite Victorian team, or even two or three teams, would've been far too strong for the local Perth and Adelaide clubs. The VFL was the only competition strong enough to undertake such expansion. WA and SA either had to join, or continue to lose their best players to the top comp.

No, there were other options available, but Victorian's only cared about preserving there own teams, not the best interest of Footy nation-wide.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Fine, but if Richmond hadn't been part of the expanded comp, I probably wouldn't care much about the AFL.

A composite Victorian team, or even two or three teams, would've been far too strong for the local Perth and Adelaide clubs. The VFL was the only competition strong enough to undertake such expansion. WA and SA either had to join, or continue to lose their best players to the top comp.

but you would have cared, just like us you would have eventually accepted that the your club Richmond is in a second tier league and you would eventually grab on to something in the AFL to have an interest. That is just human nature.

 

[Zvim]

i feel his pain though even though I still get to see my team run around in the red and white, it will never be the same and it sounds like his beloved club ended up worse..

It is why I said originally I would have preferred to see the three leagues remain the same.

The only thing that saved football, and all major sports really was pay-tv, it just happened to come out not long after the national push.

Had we had that kind of revenue stream in the different states prior to the VFL push there would have been a lot more resistance towards it. The only thing that has ensured high FTA broadcasting rights has been the security of high pay-tv demand.

I just feel on the spectator side that we have an inferior sport in terms of watching the game. Not just the softness crap but the social element of the game has been ruined. The push for membership, reserved seating and games where there are no opposition supporters, it has changed the way you experience the game, and not for the better imo. It is why Collingwood and Essendon haven't felt the pinch quite as hard with the extent of their local games, they are just fortunate when the shit hit the fan they had a high supporter base at the time.

Many people who say it is awesome now weren't around long enough to know of anything different.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

It is why I said originally I would have preferred to see the three leagues remain the same.

The only thing that saved football, and all major sports really was pay-tv, it just happened to come out not long after the national push.

Had we had that kind of revenue stream in the different states prior to the VFL push there would have been a lot more resistance towards it. The only thing that has ensured high FTA broadcasting rights has been the security of high pay-tv demand.

I just feel on the spectator side that we have an inferior sport in terms of watching the game. Not just the softness crap but the social element of the game has been ruined. The push for membership, reserved seating and games where there are no opposition supporters, it has changed the way you experience the game, and not for the better imo. It is why Collingwood and Essendon haven't felt the pinch quite as hard with the extent of their local games, they are just fortunate when the shit hit the fan they had a high supporter base at the time.

Many people who say it is awesome now weren't around long enough to know of anything different.

Great comments Zvim.

 

[ArachniX]

You need to learn some history buddy. Adelaide people were asked a number of times in the late 80’s if they would like to create a composite team and join the VFL and the majority voted no. I remember, as I was a SANFL member at the time and voted against it. That is why the player retention scheme was set up to try and keep a few of our best players in SA.

We wanted a true national competition, not an expanded VFL. But events forced the SANFL’s hand, first the WAFL broke ranks and accepted sub standard conditions and created the West Coast Eagles, thus cemented the expanded VFL model. Then Port Adelaide went behind the SANFL’s back, even though they had an agreement not too, and started negotiations to join the VFL. The SANFL then had an ultimatum, let the treacherous Port jump ship or form the Adelaide Crows. The Crows were up and running in less than 1 year.

If it had been up to me I would have preferred to see Stephen Kernahan lead a powerful Glenelg side to a national premiership than watch him lead Carlton. The Kernahan name was an institution at Glenelg. But as you Victorians only cared about your own selves, this was never to be. So much for your love of history and grass roots footy. So forgive me if I don’t give a f*ck what happens to the weaker Victorian clubs, you created this monster with you myopic greedy ways, now you suffer just as we have!

I am very aware of the history in fact. May well know just as much as you.

There is the assumption that all Victorians were greedy. In fact I think you will find that a lot of the Victorian supporters felt exactly the same way as Adelaide people back then, and still feel exactly the same now. It wasn't Victorians who were greedy, it was a select few Victorians in charge of the VFL at the time who were the greedy ones.

The creation of the expanded VFL competition was simply designed to keep the power and control of Australian football in Victoria - away from the SANFL. Did every Victorian agree with that? No, and plenty of us are still unhappy with what has happened to the football that existed. It looks great on TV etc etc but there is plenty missing that used to make this game great. I actually grew up and also supported Glenelg in the SANFL (due to the Escort Cup) as well as Geelong as much as was possible from Victoria. I still check Glenelg results.

It is the people in power now continually pushing for the so called "truly" national league and domination at the expense of whatever it takes.

So the point I was making was that regardless of whether the Adelaide Crows were forced to join the league, it didn't mean that the Adelaide people had to jump on board and support it. They did, the SANFL became second tier and the rest is history. That is not every Victorians fault.

There are plenty of Victorians in Melbourne that also lost their clubs. They are the VFA supporters. The expanded VFL also killed off the VFA. That was also deliberate as the powers that were the VFL at the time, also wanted sole control of the game in Victoria.

 

[Ron The Bear]

No, there were other options available, but Victorian's only cared about preserving there own teams, not the best interest of Footy nation-wide.

Victorian football supporters didn't have a say. It's not as though they were in favour of expanding the VFL or viewed other states' competitions as collateral damage.

A good number of Victorian footy fans lost interest in the VFL after the introduction of the Eagles and Bears. I'd be fascinated to see the crowds for a 2pm Saturday afternoon start for all matches, just to see how many footy fans there really are compared with ~25 years ago.

but you would have cared, just like us you would have eventually accepted that the your club Richmond is in a second tier league and you would eventually grab on to something in the AFL to have an interest. That is just human nature.

I'd like to think I run a bit deeper than that. It's all hypothetical though.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

For the record, I've always felt for supporters of great Australian Rules clubs like Glenelg, South Freo, Centrals, Subiaco etc who were effectively forced to see their beloved clubs pushed into a second rank comp.

I don't for a second think my love for North is any more worthy than you guys and your teams.

But it happened and it sucks.

Thus wishing the same experience you went through on others is petty and mean spirited IMO.

And so much of it, especially from SA types in my experience, stems from a fairly mindless parochial Kick A Vic attitude.