Are Victorians holding football back?

[DaVe86]

I usually agree with you Jonno. But can't on this one. I like the fact you are a traditionalist...and I too would be saddened to see Victorian teams leave.


But if you look at it from purely a business p.o.v, then it is evident that 10 Victorian teams is bad for the game.


1st of all, I think 16 teams is too many for the size of the game. 12-14 would be much better.


Secondly, atleast 4 of the teams consistently receive funding from the AFL to survive...regardless of the fact that a few of them have been successful over the last 2 decades.



Thirdly, it is competition for supporters. Melbourne and North Melbourne struggle to pull crowds...yet both come from pretty much the same geographic area. What is the need for both??? Why not just have a Metropolitan Melbourne....we've already lost South Melbourne and there is no West Melbourne. The North should probably go too.

You might get a generation of supporters become dissillusioned with the game, but the next generation will come back to it and with only 6 Victorian teams, all the clubs will have bigger membership and higher crowd attendances.



Fourthly, it is competition for players. The comp is relatively mediocre in that even the best clubs have massive holes in them. Having 18 teams is giong to make the comp even more mediocre. 12-14 clubs means the sides are stronger and we'll see better games.

Less tanking because it will be quicker to rebuild the list. Also means lists can be longer.



Fifthly, the AFL is nationalising the game. We are getting teams into population growth areas. Yet we still havent tapped into 'football states' like Tassie or NT.

A truly national competition can't have 10 clubs in 1 state, and none in another.



Point 6 - The fixture is already so imbalanced. 22 rounds is not enough to get the games in. Now with more teams, we will have an even more lop-sided fixture, with byes etc. Reducing teams means everyone game play each other twice. A 24 round competition. A top 6. It's ideal.




But I too have a traditional side, and the heart does not want to see a lot of the old teams go. But Demetriou has a master plan, and it does involve a more national code.


If he does start weeding out struggling Melbourne clubs, I would hope that he tries to merge them instead of sending them interstate.

Eg Melbourne merge with North



This will not happen in the next 5 years. But when the new clubs come in...I think naturally this is really going to squeeze the Vic clubs out. No one is going to have draft picks and all the money is going to go interstate.

 

[DaVe86]

I believe relocation of Victorian teams (weak teams) is just a cop out to keep Victorian teams alive . I for one would be disgusted if a Kangaroos side relocated to Tasmania.

Every team should have their own identity. The day when the AFL has > 50% teams outside of Melbourne, is the day when this competition is national. As I see it, Victorian teams still have way too much of an advantage over non-Victorian teams, in terms of draw's, fixturing etc.

I mean you honestly cant tell me this draw is fair if Collingwood gets 18 games in Melbourne out of 22. Im sorry but that is just not fair.

it's not and we have had it good for some time. However I'd take an extra 3 interstate trips that having to play the best teams twice like we do next year.


The only way the draw is going to be fair is to play every side twice, and that means getting the competition down to 12-14 teams instead of expanding it to 18

 

[snrub]

What you fail to understand is Carlton is an asset to the league, gets people through the gates, more people watching on TV, more members...

You're too quick to compare a couple of loans to ongoing support needed by certain clubs.

seriously, if a smaller club had a similar decade to us, do you think for a second that they would still be here? Melbourne is still around because while it may not be the largest club, its supporters have deep pockets.

You also ignore the benefits that will be reaped by the AFL if they can get a serious foothold in QLD and NSW.

If you could wipe the tears from your eyes for a moment and look at this analytically for a moment, you'd see that sustainability is going to be an issue with Australia's low population and 20 teams. Not financial sustainability, I'm talking enough elite level athletes with a football brain.

More representation is required around areas that have a reasonable population. More to the point, greater representation is needed in other states.

I seriously doubt you're able to do this though. You just keep kicking and screaming about Fitzroy and holding your breath expecting the system to bend to your whim. Its time to get over it.

Drop 4 teams in Melbourne, stand by for Richmond's long awaited resurgence and the Tiger fans to finally come out of the woodwork, and you'd soon see Carlton would be about the smallest club in the AFL. And having campaigned for others to simply "get over it", would you be so at ease to stand back and see your beloved club shipped off to Darwin or Cairns? Beware of precedents.

 

[snrub]

Thirdly, it is competition for supporters. Melbourne and North Melbourne struggle to pull crowds...yet both come from pretty much the same geographic area. What is the need for both??? Why not just have a Metropolitan Melbourne....we've already lost South Melbourne and there is no West Melbourne. The North should probably go too.

Compare this post to Abe Simpson...

"Dear Mr. President, There are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three. P.S., I am not a crank"






(Oh and by the way, West Melbourne is a part of North Melbourne.)

 

[Johnson#26]

can see where you're coming from, dave, but ultimately, you (the afl, anyone making any decisions about the game's future) cannot carelessly toy with the fabric of the game. and a very strong part of the fabric comes from north, the dees and the bulldogs. yes, we live in a world/follow a competition governed by the dollar and the bottom line, and it's sad, and it's got to be taken into account. however - surely, surely you cannot so freely disregard the years of passion and love poured into these three clubs by so many thousands of fans since the 1800s. it's completely disrespectful, and i find it crazy to see interstate supporters so happy to cull these clubs after just walking into the competition.

if a family adopted you, and they lived in a famous old house for generations - would it be right for you to start claiming that the house should be completely rebuilt, or that one of the rooms be demolished in favour of something new, but ultimately, soulless?

perhaps that's a poor analogy, but i hope people see what i'm getting at.

they talk about a house being a home. north/melb/foots give these supporters, who are the fabric itself, a home in the game, and in the culture of melb/victoria/australia, and in society. i was too young to understand fitzroy's demise, but i look back now and just feel for their fans - and with each year that goes by, time seems to relegate them further and further into the abyss (though that isn't desireable) - look at the lions new jumper, for instance. but that's another subject.

put simply, i reckon i'd find it harder to identify with footy if any of the traditional clubs went. any. i love collingwood way more than any other, and hope all other sides draw for the rest of the season while we keep winning. but the meaning in the game would be diminished irreversibly if any more victorian clubs go.

my 2xcents.

 

[DaVe86]

mate, this isn't getting rid of a state in the USA, this is talking about evening up a football competition.

I too hope North Melbourne will be around forever. I love Victorian football.

I'm looking at it through the eyes of those in charge of the comp...who have a track record of doing what is best for expanding the comp, not the fans who already support it.


I'm happy for football to be like this for another 100 years. But with 2 new sides coming in, we have to face facts that 10 Victorian clubs are holding the competition back from expanding, and it is also causing fixture inefficiencies.

 

[DaVe86]

can see where you're coming from, dave, but ultimately, you (the afl, anyone making any decisions about the game's future) cannot carelessly toy with the fabric of the game. and a very strong part of the fabric comes from north, the dees and the bulldogs. yes, we live in a world/follow a competition governed by the dollar and the bottom line, and it's sad, and it's got to be taken into account. however - surely, surely you cannot so freely disregard the years of passion and love poured into these three clubs by so many thousands of fans since the 1800s. it's completely disrespectful, and i find it crazy to see interstate supporters so happy to cull these clubs after just walking into the competition.

if a family adopted you, and they lived in a famous old house for generations - would it be right for you to start claiming that the house should be completely rebuilt, or that one of the rooms be demolished in favour of something new, but ultimately, soulless?

perhaps that's a poor analogy, but i hope people see what i'm getting at.

they talk about a house being a home. north/melb/foots give these supporters, who are the fabric itself, a home in the game, and in the culture of melb/victoria/australia, and in society. i was too young to understand fitzroy's demise, but i look back now and just feel for their fans - and with each year that goes by, time seems to relegate them further and further into the abyss (though that isn't desireable) - look at the lions new jumper, for instance. but that's another subject.

put simply, i reckon i'd find it harder to identify with footy if any of the traditional clubs went. any. i love collingwood way more than any other, and hope all other sides draw for the rest of the season while we keep winning. but the meaning in the game would be diminished irreversibly if any more victorian clubs go.

my 2xcents.

Your 2 cents are worth more like a million dollars because you speak wisdom. I too believe in the fabric of our game.


But when we started accepting interstate clubs into our competition, we begun nationalising it. We've gone from 2 interstate clubs to 8 in the space of 2 decades (less).

We've also lost a Vic club in the mean-time, and many more are struggling.



Can you honestly see that in 50 years, the comp will still consist of 10 Victorian clubs???



If we want to keep 10 Victorian clubs, then we should break back away. Go back to the VFL. Let interstate clubs go back to SANFL, WAFL, WAFL.

Then the top 4 of each comp go into a Champions league...like in Soccer. That then becomes the AFL.


12 teams qualify for a 12 round comp. Top 4 play off for a spot in the GF. Ultimate winner decided.




As much as I'd like to believe that I am wrong and you are right, I cannot envisage 10 Victorian teams in the AFL in 50 years time. Especially if Demetriou survives another 10 year in this role. Once he establishes his interstate sides, his next move will be to start culling side to get back to a 14 side comp. We can't let it balloon out to 20 teams.

 

[ozpie]

Also, i dont think we should judge a football team on the number of supporters it has. Look at Collingwood, couldn't win a flag to save themselves and consist of the biggest bunch of bogans and whingers ever to be grouped together.

ummm, what does that have to do with anything? i think your lack of intellegance has caused you to misunderstand the point of this thread!
but while we are on the topic of making generalisations, id rather support a club known for having emotional "bogans" than a heartless club where the supporters main concern is the origin of the champagne they are sipping on!

 

[Johnson#26]

fair points, and re the 10-in-50-yrs, well, i hope so, but logic says that the afl appears keen on cutting at least 1-2 out. i'm just hopeful that common sense will prevail (by all).

 

[Papa G]

can see where you're coming from, dave, but ultimately, you (the afl, anyone making any decisions about the game's future) cannot carelessly toy with the fabric of the game. and a very strong part of the fabric comes from north, the dees and the bulldogs. yes, we live in a world/follow a competition governed by the dollar and the bottom line, and it's sad, and it's got to be taken into account. however - surely, surely you cannot so freely disregard the years of passion and love poured into these three clubs by so many thousands of fans since the 1800s. it's completely disrespectful, and i find it crazy to see interstate supporters so happy to cull these clubs after just walking into the competition.

if a family adopted you, and they lived in a famous old house for generations - would it be right for you to start claiming that the house should be completely rebuilt, or that one of the rooms be demolished in favour of something new, but ultimately, soulless?

perhaps that's a poor analogy, but i hope people see what i'm getting at.

they talk about a house being a home. north/melb/foots give these supporters, who are the fabric itself, a home in the game, and in the culture of melb/victoria/australia, and in society. i was too young to understand fitzroy's demise, but i look back now and just feel for their fans - and with each year that goes by, time seems to relegate them further and further into the abyss (though that isn't desireable) - look at the lions new jumper, for instance. but that's another subject.

put simply, i reckon i'd find it harder to identify with footy if any of the traditional clubs went. any. i love collingwood way more than any other, and hope all other sides draw for the rest of the season while we keep winning. but the meaning in the game would be diminished irreversibly if any more victorian clubs go.

my 2xcents.

Ah so the fabric of football and tradition in WA or SA doesn't matter, expansion and development of the game is important, just not in my back yard.

It's a bit of a tear jerker of an arguement you put out Johnson, really does tug at the old heart strings, but I guarantee you this old son, if the Dees or the Roos fell by the wayside, you'd still be out there on the terraces a barrackin for your beloved Pies, just like you'd always have, and maybe in a moment of reflection, like the one you've just described, you'd feel a tinge of sadness for the Old Redlegs of Melbourne Town or the the Shinboners of Arden Street, but life would move on, maybe the Pies might even win that elusive Premiership and then really you couldn't be happier with competition and your place in it.

 

[Johnson#26]

Ah so the fabric of football and tradition in WA or SA doesn't matter, expansion and development of the game is important, just not in my back yard.

Show me where I wrote anything to the contrary?

Expand all you want (I like things as they are team-wise TBH), just not at the expense of a traditional side. anyway according to the figures the sanfl are going great guns anyway. seems like things are shipshape over there as it is.

It's a bit of a tear jerker of an arguement you put out Johnson, really does tug at the old heart strings, but I guarantee you this old son, if the Dees or the Roos fell by the wayside, you'd still be out there on the terraces a barrackin for your beloved Pies, just like you'd always have, and maybe in a moment of reflection, like the one you've just described, you'd feel a tinge of sadness for the Old Redlegs of Melbourne Town or the the Shinboners of Arden Street, but life would move on, maybe the Pies might even win that elusive Premiership and then really you couldn't be happier with competition and your place in it.

That may be the case, but when you have something so special, and means so much to so many, why compromise that? Meaning. I'm big on it, but that's just me.

 

[NQTIGER]

I believe relocation of Victorian teams (weak teams) is just a cop out to keep Victorian teams alive . I for one would be disgusted if a Kangaroos side relocated to Tasmania.

Every team should have their own identity. The day when the AFL has > 50% teams outside of Melbourne, is the day when this competition is national. As I see it, Victorian teams still have way too much of an advantage over non-Victorian teams, in terms of draw's, fixturing etc.

I mean you honestly cant tell me this draw is fair if Collingwood gets 18 games in Melbourne out of 22. Im sorry but that is just not fair.

Youre obviously a brisbane bears supporter they had an identity, and history just like your new Franchise..........History

 

[Frigate]

Charles Darwin.

 

[corio bay]

i dont think victorians are holding the game back.

with the introduction of GC and GWS there will be 8 interstate teams.

once GC and GWS get their fan bases together, it is quite conceivable (and easily achievable) that there will be more AFL fans outside of Victoria than within.

when that situation is acheived - victorians teams will not have the same political power that they do in the current situation. i dont know what this means for small or big victorians teams - i just cant see them holding the same clout as they do now.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Show me where I wrote anything to the contrary?

Expand all you want (I like things as they are team-wise TBH), just not at the expense of a traditional side. anyway according to the figures the sanfl are going great guns anyway. seems like things are shipshape over there as it is.



That may be the case, but when you have something so special, and means so much to so many, why compromise that? Meaning. I'm big on it, but that's just me.

What is the answer then Johnson?? I don't think anyone likes or wants clubs to fold but as you know the only thing that is important now is money. Like you I hate that is the case but that is the case and that means long term there simply will not be 10 clubs in Melbourne in the AFL, that does not mean the club folds it may mean they play in a different comp.

People can't see it at the moment and that is fine but it is going to happen, it is as near a certainty as death.

 

[Gorkamorka]

IMHO, below is the pecking order of Victorian clubs:

Collingwood
Essendon
Carlton
Richmond
Geelong
Hawthorn
St Kilda
Footscray
Melbourne
North Melbourne

 

[Slattery_20]

i dont think victorians are holding the game back.

with the introduction of GC and GWS there will be 8 interstate teams.

once GC and GWS get their fan bases together, it is quite conceivable (and easily achievable) that there will be more AFL fans outside of Victoria than within.

when that situation is acheived - victorians teams will not have the same political power that they do in the current situation. i dont know what this means for small or big victorians teams - i just cant see them holding the same clout as they do now.

The clubs have SFA clout now anyway.
When the AFL was created, the existing clubs signed away their rights to jumpers, fixture parity etc.

There does need to be a heck of a lot more transparency in league HQ decisions.
IE the hall of fame - McLachlan's brother winning the tender - and having the HOF halfway up the city rather than @ the MCG.
That is decidedly dodgy.
There needs to be transparency within the commission - if that means commissioners elected by the clubs, elected by AFL members, whatever. It's run by a boys club as it is.

 

[Constructionist]

You can't merge enough Vic teams in melbourne to get the required number that is needed. 3 Victorian teams need to go within a decade, if you merge that means 6 clubs will be affected, too many.

The best solution is to drop these clubs back to the VFL so that they maintain their history. If supporters love their team so much they won't care if they are in the AFL or VFL. With the attitude some victorians have they only want to play victorians, moving back to the VFL solves this problem.

The AFL is Nation Wide, not some Victorian thing, and whilst Victorian teams outnumber the rest of the states it won't be a fair national competition. This doesn't even go into the fact that the Victorian teams are going to struggle even more as the money spent at other clubs keeps going up and up and up. Freo/WCE/Sydney/Bris/Adelaide can afford these new expenses and can experience the growth needed, as can a few Vic teams. The others cannot and will become less and less competitive as can be seen now with players leaving North/Melbourne because the services they provide are shit.

 

[Godzke]

IMHO, below is the pecking order of Victorian clubs:

Collingwood
Essendon
Carlton
Richmond
Geelong
Hawthorn
St Kilda
Footscray
Melbourne
North Melbourne

Personally I'd have it as follows:

Collingwood
Essendon
Carlton
Hawthorn
Geelong
Richmond
Melbourne
North Melbourne
St Kilda
WBD

Not a lot of difference between the top 3 but a bit of a gap from 3rd to 4th ... not much difference again between Hawks and Tiges ... gap ... Melbourne ... small gap ... Saints, WBD and North (in pretty much any order).

 

[jpdixon]

All this talk about "culture" and "soul" is rubbish. A local comp has clubs with culture and has whatever is meant by soul. The non-Victorian clubs have their own cultures, and national comps, even new ones, generally have a "soul" - it is just different. The problem with the AFL is that it is trying to be both at once, but the so-called interstate teams detract from the Victorian "soul" and the disproportionality hinders the development of a national "soul".

Expanding the VFL might have been the obvious easy way to get a national competition at the time, but in the long run having two sets of clubs with such different environments and expectations isn't fair to either group. It would really be best if the AFL were either a Victorian comp or a national one, not this hybrid. It is perhaps only Sydney and Brisbane (the cities) that are indisputably better off with a national comp, the rest depends on how you see the financial future.

In any case, the fact that the expansion was done step by step has caused some problems (being the second team in a city is never going to be easy, especially in a traditional footy state), but has also made it next to impossible for the AFL to move to a properly national comp or revert to a VFL without upsetting a lot of people.

 

[Tulip]

Teams no one gives a shit about besides their own pathetic supporters:
Melbourne
North
Bulldogs
Port

that is all

I'm sorry to put Adelaide there but I'm jsut pointing out that we need a bit of culture! How would you feel if people were calling for your club to move down a grade 'becoz u can stil injoy your club at VFL and we can hv more $$'? Emotions sometimes get in the way of logic and it was a childish argument

 

[Tulip]

Ah so the fabric of football and tradition in WA or SA doesn't matter, expansion and development of the game is important, just not in my back yard.

It's a bit of a tear jerker of an arguement you put out Johnson, really does tug at the old heart strings, but I guarantee you this old son, if the Dees or the Roos fell by the wayside, you'd still be out there on the terraces a barrackin for your beloved Pies, just like you'd always have, and maybe in a moment of reflection, like the one you've just described, you'd feel a tinge of sadness for the Old Redlegs of Melbourne Town or the the Shinboners of Arden Street, but life would move on, maybe the Pies might even win that elusive Premiership and then really you couldn't be happier with competition and your place in it.

That's the thing about Footy. It's so much a part of Victorian culture (not disregarding other states here!) that a club becomes more than just a team you watch every week but rather it's like a home. Sure Johnson26 may go back to supporting Collingwood every week but there goes the fight in the game. Give me a Melbourne vs North game over a GC vs GWS game any hour of any day of the week

 

[Ron The Bear]

That's the thing about Footy. It's so much a part of Victorian culture (not disregarding other states here!) that a club becomes more than just a team you watch every week but rather it's like a home. Sure Johnson26 may go back to supporting Collingwood every week but there goes the fight in the game. Give me a Melbourne vs North game over a GC vs GWS game any hour of any day of the week

Agree. The thing about nationalising a comp that's been running for a hundred years is, you can't duplicate feelings born of inner-suburban rivalries by plonking a manufactured club in the middle of a far-flung population centre, however great it looks on TV.

 

[nthblood]

Who payed it? Apart from Edelstein promising to pay ( and the cheque is still in the mail) the VFL/AFL payed it.

how many times was Sydney broke?

I haven't got enough fingers on my hands to count that, and you will be asking for handouts again soon when you have competition in your town.

Already you guys are whinging about WSYD and the affect it will have on your great club.

FFS Sydney has had more lives than a cat, at least we got ourselves out of our financial mess with out relying on the other clubs to prop us up.

But then again you might only be an 8 year old and don't know what actually happened.

Try reading Football INC , BTW this also applies to the Brisbane Bears/Lions whose success was created by the Rape of fitzroy.

You have got to be kidding, it was the VFL that dumped South Melbourne in Sydney with nothing, except with the money that had been held back till they moved.You mention Edelstein, what the hell are you talking about with this , it was the VFL who sold the swans to him even though he was just a front man, destined for failure. Also there was a better consortium but why did they pick the doc, the VFL was afraid the swans would be moved back to Melbourne because the consortium where high profile very rich swan supporters. Then they where dumped / sold again by the VFL / AFL for the sum of 1 dollar. So you and the other clubs propped us up, well you where the bastards that put us there, so you could get more money from TV.

Why would I want to read about how Fitzroy where r*ped when my own club was #### up the arse by the VFL and Victorian clubs over the years. You only have to go down and look what they have done to the Lake oval and now there is a soccer club calling themselves South Melbourne Football Club playing where the Lake oval was. Talk about being r*ped.

 

[Tulip]

You can't merge enough Vic teams in melbourne to get the required number that is needed. 3 Victorian teams need to go within a decade, if you merge that means 6 clubs will be affected, too many.

The best solution is to drop these clubs back to the VFL so that they maintain their history. If supporters love their team so much they won't care if they are in the AFL or VFL. With the attitude some victorians have they only want to play victorians, moving back to the VFL solves this problem.

The AFL is Nation Wide, not some Victorian thing, and whilst Victorian teams outnumber the rest of the states it won't be a fair national competition. This doesn't even go into the fact that the Victorian teams are going to struggle even more as the money spent at other clubs keeps going up and up and up. Freo/WCE/Sydney/Bris/Adelaide can afford these new expenses and can experience the growth needed, as can a few Vic teams. The others cannot and will become less and less competitive as can be seen now with players leaving North/Melbourne because the services they provide are shit.

Okay then mate. hawthorn to lead the way?