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Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2
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Vdubs
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Jesus said the words. Why would the writer, who had none of your rat-cunning skills, write those words in the manner you suggest?
To be fair ... you have the floor and audience
Can you explain the (more profound than-' be simple and stupid') significance of it for us . PLEASE?
Vdubs
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not my words, but it is how it is- 2 Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
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I understand where you're coming from. Maybe we can find some agreement here.
I think the bible (mostly passages from proverbs) and the Hosea verse suggest that your god wants you to have knowledge about him and scholarly pursuits including science, psychology, philosophy, finance, other religions, history, politics, and the like.
This verse isn't bad: "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves." Mt 10:16
One of the main selling points about Jesus was that he had more knowledge than those who opposed him. I'm not sure that he wanted his followers to be cannon fodder for atheists and scientists.
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The bible is a sales pitch. If I was half the salesman that Paul and Moses were, I'd have my own cult....and I'd call it Essendon.
fwiw I would like to congratulate you on the quality of your replies in the thread recently( Outstanding genuine humility and speaking from the heart)
You are here to talk about your life experiences and share them not to engage in Theological argument. Ought be completely understood!
As I have maintained all along if it makes you happy and a better person, then that can only be a good thing.
I think the verse your replies to TP was missing was :
2 Corinthians 3:4-6
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Just a minor correction, for educational purposes :
You said : " You persist in referring to Yahweh as Yehwah- minor issue but fundamental. "
Nah there are no vowels in Semitic Hebrew "YHWH" is the blokes written name. The pronunciation is a guess.
The big problem for me is:
The apostle Paul stated, "If Christ be not risen, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain, yea, and we are found false witness of God; because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ … and if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain; you are still in your sins.… If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable" (1 Corinthians 15:14, 15, 17, 19, KJV).
The contradictory, absurd, often impossible, various accounts of Jesus crucifixion and resurrection is a show stopper to TRUTH (imho) but that does not matter to any who gain joy from believing these muddled fables as being somehow true!
Why has Paul got you all down trodden. He was just an evangelist but a dam fine one at that. Never got the top job.
Wot? Please esssplain?
See, this is where you get all in a mess and trouble with those who actually have read it, or can look it up
The full thing
The Dedication of the Temple
7 When Solomon finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple. 2 The priests could not enter the temple of the Lord because the glory of the Lord filled it. 3 When all the Israelites saw the fire coming down and the glory of the Lord above the temple, they knelt on the pavement with their faces to the ground, and they worshiped and gave thanks to the Lord, saying,
“He is good; his love endures forever.”
4 Then the king and all the people offered sacrifices before the Lord. 5 And King Solomon offered a sacrifice of twenty-two thousand head of cattle and a hundred and twenty thousand sheep and goats. So the king and all the people dedicated the temple of God. 6 The priests took their positions, as did the Levites with the Lord’s musical instruments, which King David had made for praising the Lord and which were used when he gave thanks, saying, “His love endures forever.” Opposite the Levites, the priests blew their trumpets, and all the Israelites were standing.
7 Solomon consecrated the middle part of the courtyard in front of the temple of the Lord, and there he offered burnt offerings and the fat of the fellowship offerings, because the bronze altar he had made could not hold the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the fat portions.
8 So Solomon observed the festival at that time for seven days, and all Israel with him—a vast assembly, people from Lebo Hamath to the Wadi of Egypt. 9 On the eighth day they held an assembly, for they had celebrated the dedication of the altar for seven days and the festival for seven days more. 10 On the twenty-third day of the seventh month he sent the people to their homes, joyful and glad in heart for the good things the Lord had done for David and Solomon and for his people Israel.
The Lord Appears to Solomon
11 When Solomon had finished the temple of the Lord and the royal palace, and had succeeded in carrying out all he had in mind to do in the temple of the Lord and in his own palace, 12 the Lord appeared to him at night and said:
“I have heard your prayer and have chosen this place for myself as a temple for sacrifices.
13 “When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people, 14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 15 Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place. 16 I have chosen and consecrated this temple so that my Name may be there forever. My eyes and my heart will always be there.
Poor cattle sheep and goats!
Edit: Can you point to any abattoir on planet Earth, that can process that many animal kills in a session? How long what duration?
It never did until 1949 heal their land (NOT HEALED ANYWAY) and that was some arbitrary nutter from Britain who wanted Israel to exist so his fantasy had a chance of becoming true
Shirley..... he should have sent them Jesus instead? Once off kill it , and then it would be all over with?
I mean his grumpiness at his own mistake!
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It is better that you just quietly believe than challenge it.
The impossible
That the sun was completely blocked out for 3 hours and no one else on the planet observed or recorded it. Neither do the other 3 gospel story tellers
Passover by definition occurs at the full moon. Anyway Eclipse lasts approx 8 minutes.
Resurrection itself ought not be s big deal if you believe the Bible
Elijah is said to have raised a child from the dead
You have heard of Lazarus? Maybe he was only in a coma but more likely just a story
Jesus has his Passover meal , goes to the Garden to pray (who to?) Peter cuts off a Romans ear with a sword and Jesus glues it back on ( why did Peter have a sword when he told em turn the other cheek) then somehow Pontus Pilate has full court in the evening (likely past midnight)? I guess you mean GOD somehow muddled his brains to hold court then send Jesus to Herod who happened to be visiting from Galilee
The dead rose out of the graves and appeared to many. Strange no one thought that was worthy of recording along with the Earthquake no one else recorded
(Pliny the Elder was alive and obsessed with natural phenomenon and did not record it or heard of it)
So the story (stories) is/are saying the others rose from the Dead first, BEFORE JC had even ascended?
Crucifixion was a long drawn out event lasting as permanent record to dissuade other wrong doers a painful long death somehow the Romans just let Jesus be buried ? Yeah f'cking miracle!
The disciples didn't believe Mary initially (why/) . In fact in Luke JC walks along with two of them and they do not recognize him! How so?
Then somehow Thomas who was left out of the loop and does not believe, but when confronted with JC , his leader and devoted his life for for 3 years, he doesn't hug him in utter joy at him being present in front of him , but rather pokes his fingers in wounds? Just a poor writers attempt to try and OVER emphasize a physical return!
The accounts differ, some say the angels present in some gospels , said JC said meet me in Galilee. That is about 80 miles as the crow flies from Jerusalem and they do not make any big deal about being transported there (helicopter or some such) and how they also managed to be in Jerusalem at the same time in other versions?
OF COURSE given all this was posthumously written decades (some John 70 years after) the event then the stories can get confused and muddled and likely exaggerated
However Christians are asked to believe and want others to also believe these rantings are the inspired word of the creator of the Universe?
... and that all persons ought base their lives on such.
YES people will.... because they like the thought of being special and living happily forever. The best con in history.
MIRACLES ALRIGHT! You must become as ignorant as little children. (Matt 18.3)
All good mate but you can’t have God with out miracles. It’s just the way it is.
Good old Peter .. you can see why he got the top job.
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
Matthew 18:1–6 describes Jesus' surprising answer to a question from the disciples about who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. He calls a child to Him and puts that child in the middle of the group. He says they must become "like children" in order to enter the kingdom—a reference to humility and sincere obedience. The greatest is one who humbles himself in this way. Those who receive children like that in Jesus' name receive Him. Using the metaphor of drowning, Jesus warns anyone who would cause one of His followers to sin.
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That's odd. I was taught that the rock on which Jesus built his church was himself rather than a lineage of popes. Given the calibre of popes you guys keep churning out, Catholics are standing between a rock and a hard place.
Exactly, three years of intense training, to be able to tell lies (and get away with it) , three times in a row!
A Christian hero!
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So if you were making it all up you would change Peter a bit ?
It is better that you just quietly believe than challenge it.
The impossible
That the sun was completely blocked out for 3 hours and no one else on the planet observed or recorded it. Neither do the other 3 gospel story tellers
Passover by definition occurs at the full moon. Anyway Eclipse lasts approx 8 minutes.
Resurrection itself ought not be s big deal if you believe the Bible
Elijah is said to have raised a child from the dead
You have heard of Lazarus? Maybe he was only in a coma but more likely just a story
Jesus has his Passover meal , goes to the Garden to pray (who to?) Peter cuts off a Romans ear with a sword and Jesus glues it back on ( why did Peter have a sword when he told em turn the other cheek) then somehow Pontus Pilate has full court in the evening (likely past midnight)? I guess you mean GOD somehow muddled his brains to hold court then send Jesus to Herod who happened to be visiting from Galilee
The dead rose out of the graves and appeared to many. Strange no one thought that was worthy of recording along with the Earthquake no one else recorded
(Pliny the Elder was alive and obsessed with natural phenomenon and did not record it or heard of it)
So the story (stories) is/are saying the others rose from the Dead first, BEFORE JC had even ascended?
Crucifixion was a long drawn out event lasting as permanent record to dissuade other wrong doers a painful long death somehow the Romans just let Jesus be buried ? Yeah f'cking miracle!
The disciples didn't believe Mary initially (why/) . In fact in Luke JC walks along with two of them and they do not recognize him! How so?
Then somehow Thomas who was left out of the loop and does not believe, but when confronted with JC , his leader and devoted his life for for 3 years, he doesn't hug him in utter joy at him being present in front of him , but rather pokes his fingers in wounds? Just a poor writers attempt to try and OVER emphasize a physical return!
The accounts differ, some say the angels present in some gospels , said JC said meet me in Galilee. That is about 80 miles as the crow flies from Jerusalem and they do not make any big deal about being transported there (helicopter or some such) and how they also managed to be in Jerusalem at the same time in other versions?
OF COURSE given all this was posthumously written decades (some John 70 years after) the event then the stories can get confused and muddled and likely exaggerated
However Christians are asked to believe and want others to also believe these rantings are the inspired word of the creator of the Universe?
... and that all persons ought base their lives on such.
YES people will.... because they like the thought of being special and living happily forever. The best con in history.
MIRACLES ALRIGHT! You must become as ignorant as little children. (Matt 18.3)
Mary wasn’t believed ? If you were making it all up would you change this bit ?
We are here to debate the Bible, i am not to hear you parrot about what mainstream Christians say, i am aware of what Catholics and Protestants think of their interpretation, this is why i called you a parrot, you parrot what other Christians say, are you incapable of your own thoughts and you keep insisting i am a non-believer. Well duh, this is ask a christian thread, if we were believers we wouldn't be asking a Christian. This is why you are in this thread, why create your own stawman?
Yehwah is not a minor issue, you said there is only one god, so i am asking you is Yehwah the same as Jesus and the holy spirit? NT simply cannot exist with the OT and OT required to find the context of the NT. So why do you keep insisting it's a minor issue? I asked you to provide your arguments how god is kind and merciful, how faith and repentance is the way to enternal life, although scriptures say you will be judged by your own actions and yet you keep saying 'us christians believe'. Yes i am well aware of what other people believe, believing something doesnt necessarily make it true. The Bible is full of contradictions, you say i pick and choose my verse, yet you fail to see that John and Matthew/Luke are in direct conflict with each other about what leads to eternal life.
No. I am not capable of embellishing, or bettering, those sort of lies.
Elsewhere, we are told he jumps out of the boat and walks on water TOO! for a while but still doesn't get it.
The truth is if you believe it!??? Then it is (becomes) real. You probably have made the jump !?
He ( Cephas or Simon or whatever its name was -became Peter ) is the perfect archetype of the degree of utter FOOLISH ... that is required.
Nay ....it IS commanded or else!
God was around and appearing publicly once upon at time.
Have you seen IT? If so, how recently?
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You are talking about smritis (which are not the original hindu texts but came a lot later). The original Hindu Texts of Vedas and Upanishadas are both atheistic. Mahabharatas, Ramayanas, Puanas came a lot later although they do make hindu theology, they are not the source of Hinduism.
You miss the whole point, leaving Bible aside, all religions preach you reap what you sow. Actions are what's important, you can believe what you want, but how are you influencing the world is more important. My beliefs can be pure but my actions might be ***** and it can affect other living beings in a negative way. This is why Jesus says god is love, if you are not able to love your fellow human beings how are you able to love God? This is what Mother Teresa said as well and Corpuscles is well read on Swami Vivekananda and his in book the great works of Swamiji he was asked about what he thought of Jesus, he said " Jesus Christ was willing to admit every good man to the family of God. It is not the man who believes a certain something, but the man who does the will of the Father in heaven, who is right. On this basis—being right and doing right—the whole world can unite" , this is what John 3:16 means, No one comes to heaven but through me. It doesn't mean mere faith, you can only love God if you are capable of loving his creation. Vivekanada emphasized on the teachings of Christ when asked why does he feed the poor, gives his clothes to the destitute yet, pays little attention to his mother he replied "the whole world is my home and every woman in despair is my mother". That's the teaching of the enlightened, that's the teaching of the Christ, you will do well to decode this by yourelf without the tagline that 'i am a christian' or ' i am a hindu'. Spirituality cares less about tags, its free from dogma and indoctrination.
As i said, i am not against Christianity, but i am against what it has become, today, thanks to Constantine and the Catholic Church. If Jesus was alive today, he would weep.
Have a lie down.
As the great man once said . The Bible wasn’t written for atheists they had to wait for Windows 95 for Dummies for their book .But enjoy .. it’s your time to shine .
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Which bible? Changes often and christians are rather choosie about which parts to follow.
Good point. Little men from Germany but what can you do
Yes excuse and forgive me.
You wanted to make a point about Peter. Please continue!
btw : Sadly, I had read the Bible cover to cover, and in between many (uncountable) times before MS Windows 95
Please let it rip! What do you want to say?
Edit: who is this "Great man" you speak of? My googlator doesn't pick up this quote from any source?
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And you still wouldn't win a final.
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Gary Ablett
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
The minor issue was the spelling.
YHWH has commonly been called YAHWEH. You have used YEHWAH. I have already been corrected on that very minor issue, and stand corrected.
GOD The Father - (Yahweh)...GOD The Son- Jesus...GOD The Holy Spirit
This is the triune God we believe in --That makes us Trinitarian Christians.
There are Non Trinitarian "Christians" like LDS, and 7DA.
I believe we will all be judged by our actions; the major point is that The Good News Of The Gospel is to receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour, leads to the Holy Spirit working through that Christian, so that ultimately good works and deeds follow. I never want to suggest that a nominal acceptance of Jesus on a certain day, then that person just lives how he pleases and says to everyone, all is good, I'm in, I'm saved. That is contrary to how we practice and to what is said in the Bible.
But, the insistence is to accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, as the pathway to God.
Again, I can not and will not comment on those who have no knowledge of Jesus or are devout believers in God in a different way, eg Islam.
The kindness of God is by giving us His Son Jesus, as a role model and pathway to make peace with Him. And you know the fate of Jesus.
GRACE- God's Riches At Christ's Expense.
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