Win Prizes Ask an Atheist II

[Gethelred]

Welcome to the Ask an Atheist thread II.

Previous part:

Win Prizes - Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack. As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them. If you've still got...

www.bigfooty.com

Standard board rules apply.

 

[Vdubs]

Evidence. If i press you on the writing above, you will run away. Cause you haven't read what they have written. The resurrection story, had 4 different accounts in 4 gospels. All came from the mouth of Paul and written down 100+ down after his death.

I am happy to debate you, i am happy you can copy paste, however i am not happy when you blind copy paste.

Debate?- not blind at all, you would never agree with any pro resurrection argument, even though you allegedly once believed.
We both don't need this.

 

[Total Power]

Debate?- not blind at all, you would never agree with any pro resurrection argument, even though you allegedly once believed.
We both don't need this.

Yes that's what indoctrination does to people, i was once indoctrinated. I am ashamed of that.

However fortunately i am no longer indoctrinated and i can see what's right from wrong.

If you copy paste, be prepared to defend your argument, you have done this before and ran away when challenged.

Evolution being the last topic.

Pro-ressuaction, haha nope, it's a made up event, which never happened.

 

[Vdubs]

Yes that's what indoctrination does to people, i was once indoctrinated. I am ashamed of that.

However fortunately i am no longer indoctrinated and i can see what's right from wrong.

You see because you want to, and you read voraciously all the sites that support your new found belief system.

 

[Total Power]

You see because you want to, and you read voraciously all the sites that support your new found belief system.

I don't have a belief system i simply go by the evidence. Faith by definition means absence of evidence.

Why are you like a broken record?

 

[Vdubs]

I don't have a belief system i simply go by the evidence. Faith by definition means absence of evidence.

Why are you like a broken record?

Spotify, or vinyl records?
Anyway, early start in theatre tomorrow

 

[Total Power]

Spotify, or vinyl records?
Anyway, early start in theatre tomorrow

Codex Sinaiticus | Earliest Known Biblical Manuscript | Britannica​

Codex Sinaiticus, the earliest known manuscript of the Christian Bible, compiled in the 4th century ce. In 1844, 43 leaves of a 4th-century biblical codex (a collection of single pages bound together along one side) were discovered at St. Catherine’s Monastery at the foot of Mount Sinai (hence the

www.britannica.com


Codex Sinaiticus, also called S, the earliest known manuscript of the Christian Bible, compiled in the 4th century CE.

S doesn;t have any info on resurrections of Jesus, neither about Jesus stopping the stoning of the woman. When do you think they were added?

 

[Total Power]

There are two aspects to the gospel evidence: (i) Jesus’ tomb was empty on the first Easter Day; and

For now i only have the time to debunk this lie. Why would there be a tomb in the first place? According to actual history, Pilate was ruthless and was removed from his position by Rome for killing too many people. There is no way the ruthless Pilate would have allowed the body of Jesus to be given a respectful burial in a tomb for a blasphemer? I am trying to say that 1.) An honorable burial would have been highly unlikely 2.) Neither Jesus family or Joseph would have had a family tomb in Jerusalem.

Majority of the scholars agree with me.

 

[Total Power]

There are two aspects to the gospel evidence: (i) Jesus’ tomb was empty on the first Easter Day; and (ii) Jesus appeared alive to many people after his death. There is some disagreement in small details between the gospels

Small? absolute rubbish. The differences are so big it becomes a completely different story, i listed it here before.

Religion - Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

Continued in Part Two: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

www.bigfooty.com

Completely different story from gospel to gospel and completely made up. Paul's OBJECTIVE is to prove that Jesus was God and Jesus appeared in front of him.

He had no other choice, he would have been persecuted otherwise.

Yet here you claim i have strange beliefs.

I follow the evidence, you obviously are desperate to believe, which is understandable.

. However, if all witnesses in a court case agreed in every detail you would suspect a conspiracy, so this disagreement in the gospels points to their being independent accounts from different sources rather than the fabrication of conspirators.

Which sources would that be? none of the witness were eyewitness' based on what Paul claims to be true, from Paul's letters. There's nothing that exists outside of that.

So fail.

Again i keep saying Paul is a fraud and you keep quoting Paul as if it this means anything?

The best evidence comes from chapter 15 of Paul’s first letter to the Christians in Corinth, written in about 55 AD. Here Paul gives a list of witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection, including, last of all, himself.
Some significant points emerge from the evidence:

Of course it all came from that fraud. The 12 apostles were uneducated, but you would think he would help write independent accounts, but all came from Paul and only Paul.

Why no one wrote about it?

Who were these 500 people? how did he know it's 500? he wasn't there, nor he interviewed them.

A con man is a con man.

Paul himself, speaking on the resurrection of the dead in general, and the resurrection of Jesus in particular, says the following (I Cor. 15: 12-17)

"But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile"

so..... if we assume Jesus was an historical figure, and there is no evidence whatsoever of the extraordinary and fantastic events surrounding the resurrection that were evidently common knowledge in that area at that time, it can be assumed that it didn't happen. If that's the case, even Paul said faith is futile.

Yep con man he is.

1. The first witnesses were women. Sadly, women then were thought unreliable and were not allowed to testify in court. Hence, you just wouldn’t invent a story with women as your first witnesses.

This is true, which is why your God didn't have a single female prophet, women were not reliable, just like Quran states.

Aren't you ashamed?

Either way, he was not the first one resurrected:

Lazarus, Mithras, Krishna, Rama, Sai baba and host of others.

Jesus was not the only one, 400 other zombies came out and went for a walk with Jesus that night.

His history and Biblical knowledge is way off.

1. All Jesus’ twelve disciples, apart from Judas, were witnesses, as were Matthias who replaced Judas, Joseph, Matthias’ competitor for Judas’ place, and Jesus’ brother James.

According to Paul. There were no eyewitness' testimonials and none of it were mentioned outside of the Gospels. Imagine such a ground breaking event and no one wrote about it.

1. Paul recounts Jesus’ appearance to 500 people at one time, most of whom were still alive to testify when he was writing, a mere 22 years later.

Who testified where? none of the Gospels were eyewitness' testimonials.

This is a lie. The claim arose from Paul and only Paul.

None of the Gospel writers claim this is a eyewitness.

1. Finally, Paul himself met Christ on the Damascus road. This changed him completely, from ardent opponent of the faith to the most zealous disciple of all.

I have done this to death with you. Paul is a fraud and Jesus appeared in front of a murder and serial rapist to preach his religion?

Think about it, he had 12 apostles his chosen ones to spread his teachings but he appeared in front of a murderer, who later on became a self appointed part of the ministry of Jesus.

Jesus never appointed him, he himself did.

His preachings do not align with that of Jesus, it's completely different.

I can carry on but i simply don't wish to debate this all over again, if you wish to prove resurrection, you need to do better, which you simply can't cause none of the events are real.

This is why i don't want you to copy paste, you simply cannot reply back to me , except 'i have faith'. The fact that these events never happened, you don't have a single evidence for it, neither does the apologist you copied.

I said Paul is a con man, so to prove your point, you quote more of the con man who clearly made up the story.

Dis-Belief in resurrection doesn't mean your faith is useless, Paul said that cause he wanted people to believe Jesus was God and Jesus appeared in front of him to make himself 'special'.

 

[Roylion]

There are two aspects to the gospel evidence: (i) Jesus’ tomb was empty on the first Easter Day;

I've gone through this before and you've never addressed any of the points.

The empty tomb is far from a historical fact and many mainstream scholars think its a literary invention. The empty tomb story appears to be a late addition to the tradition, appearing first in Mark, written some 35 to 40 years after the events it purports to describe. Paul mentions that Jesus was buried in 1 Corinthians 15, but nowhere does he mention an empty tomb. As the empty tomb cannot be established as an early tradition it adds to the doubts about its historicity.

I've gone through this in more detail here, which of course you completely ignore. You then repeat the same claim again and so we go around in circles.

and (ii) Jesus appeared alive to many people after his death.

This has been responded to here.

The best evidence comes from chapter 15 of Paul’s first letter to the Christians in Corinth, written in about 55 AD. Here Paul gives a list of witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection, including, last of all, himself.
Some significant points emerge from the evidence:

1. The first witnesses were women. Sadly, women then were thought unreliable and were not allowed to testify in court. Hence, you just wouldn’t invent a story with women as your first witnesses.
2. All Jesus’ twelve disciples, apart from Judas, were witnesses, as were Matthias who replaced Judas, Joseph, Matthias’ competitor for Judas’ place, and Jesus’ brother James.
3. Paul recounts Jesus’ appearance to 500 people at one time, most of whom were still alive to testify when he was writing, a mere 22 years later.
4. Finally, Paul himself met Christ on the Damascus road. This changed him completely, from ardent opponent of the faith to the most zealous disciple of all.

This has been addressed here.

Alternative explanations for the evidence mostly involve a conspiracy, such as the disciples stealing the body. Indeed, that was the first theory at the time, deliberately circulated by the Jewish authorities. It implies that the disciples would have colluded in a lie.
Some died for their belief in the resurrection. While some people do die for false beliefs, nobody dies for something he knowsto be false, which would be the case for the disciples if they had invented the story.

This has been addressed here and here.

Scientists believe their theories on the basis of evidence. There is considerable evidence for Jesus’ resurrection.

There is not considerable evidence. There are the Gospel accounts and Paul.

Many scientists have closed their minds to such evidence, historical evidence of testimony of witnesses.

There is no historical evidence of testimony of witnesses. Paul was not a witness of the resurrection and the Gospel writers certainly were not.

They suppose that the universe is a closed system in which only the rigid laws of physics operate and miracles are in principle impossible.

There are no 'miracles'.

Christopher Hitchens:
"If you see something apparently involving suspension of the laws of nature, shall we say: the Sun is standing still so Joshua can win his battle? Or the raising of Jairus' daughter, or even my favorite miracle, the turning of the water into wine at Cana, attributed to the Hellenistic influence that still persisted in Palestine at that time. You still have to ask yourself a question: Which is more probable? That the laws of Physics or nature have been suspended, by the way in my favor, or that I'm under misapprehension. Everyone has to ask themselves that question. That's if they saw it themselves. If they take it as a report, filtered through dozens of other non-eye witnesses and corrupt text down the years, then I would think anyone who says they think of the resurrection as a historic fact is advertising a willingness to believe in absolutely anything. What does Christianity say? Ah, those laws can be suspended, and in your favor too, if you make the right prayers and propitiations and sacrifices. It can be that a virgin can conceive, a dead body can walk again, your leprosy can be cured, the blind can see. Nonsense!"

Bart Ehrman states that:

"Miracles by definition are the least probable occurrence of an event. Therefore the resurrection cannot be accepted as a historically proven event. If you believe in the resurrection it is for theological reasons, not historical."

if we have open minds actually to look at the evidence in detail, if we are prepared to be surprised, then it becomes perfectly possible for a scientist to believe in the resurrection.

Historians do look at the evidence in detail including the reliability of that evidence and most reject the resurrection.

Indeed, having an open mind to follow where the evidence leads is a much more scientific attitude than deciding beforehand what you think can or can’t happen.

The evidence available does not support the historical fact of resurrection.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

That's the thing here- nobody is trying to impose their beliefs on you. I know what I know, but there are plenty here who are convinced I am of low IQ, have blind faith, can not understand the burden of proof.

I don't mean imposing beliefs on here, I mean in general. Christians in particular are extremely energetic in imposing their beliefs on everyone else. Conquest of America, anyone?

And let's be honest, any impartial observer would agree they have an inordinate influence in politics in Australia. In a supposed democracy, I resent that intensely and will continue to fight against it.

And don't even get me started on the extremely underhanded tactics they used to try to prevent ethics classes in NSW schools as an alternative to scripture.

I've no doubt you're one of the more decent Christians around.

If all people accepted what you just said, it would be fine.

Nothing to do with me. If people just always strived to work from fact instead of belief and hokum, the world would be a much better place.

As far as those atrocities, of course we all have to live under that knowledge, but I can also accept there's been so much good in the world that has come out of having religious faith. That is never recognised here. I am no longer a Catholic for instance, but to undersell the vast good that has come out of the Catholic church will definitely outweigh what gets brought up time after time?

Yes despite being one who always gratefully acknowledges the wonderful work that the church has done and continues to do, I personally am not at all convinced that the good it does outweighs the great harm it has also done.

 

[carltonchelsea]

So you can not reply. I'm not asking to be deconverted, just asking you to prove without doubt why you know that God does not exist, and that people can not get to God by being Christians.

Prove to me that Wotan, Thor, Odin, Zeus, Isis, Ra don’t exist and I’ll use the very same method you used to refute the existence of Yahweh!

 

[western royboy]

I am no longer a Catholic for instance, but to undersell the vast good that has come out of the Catholic church will definitely outweigh what gets brought up time after time?

No - it never will, Never. Throw away attitudes like this allow evil to prosper.

 

[carltonchelsea]

As far as those atrocities, of course we all have to live under that knowledge, but I can also accept there's been so much good in the world that has come out of having religious faith. That is never recognised here. I am no longer a Catholic for instance, but to undersell the vast good that has come out of the Catholic church will definitely outweigh what gets brought up time after time?

The Catholic Church and community is the most vile and evil organisation humanity has ever collaborated in.
Forget Hitler, forget Leopold II, forget all the tyrants of mass extermination of humans.
The Roman Catholic Church is the number one, it’s the gold medal standard of the degradation of the human condition and spirit.
Wasn’t it the Romans that killed the Jewish bloke pretending to be born without sperm hitting the female egg?
Christians really are the prototypical Stockholm syndrome sufferers.
Guaranteed they all love Bibi Netanyahu for the same reasons.
How dare you raise an argument for the good that disgusting detritus of an institution has convened upon our little blue planet, you should apologise to this forum!

 

[Total Power]

Vdubs this is why i call you out when you copy paste. Both Roy and I copypaste at times but we are able to defend our Pov. You are MIA again, just like last time and 100 times before? there's a difference between educated copy pasting and blind copy pasting.

 

[carltonchelsea]

God will judge each individual on the sincerity of their faith, from my understanding- I can make no pronouncements on how He will judge anyone at all.
I never make any pronouncements about other religions, that is your domain, comparing and contrasting is not for me.
'This life is too short.
We know what we know, and that suffices.

Your god better be prepared for my questions to his psychopathic tendencies and love of child rape than my lack of faith in his inexcusable conduct and evidence presented mate!
I will tear his kingdom down and ram it up his clacker before he had any power over my non existent soul.
He has been warned!

 

[Total Power]

Paul is a fraud, so to prove his point that Paul is not a fraud VD quotes more Paul.

You can't make this shit up.

That bothered me even back when I was Christian. I used to wonder why are we putting so much emphasis on this Paul guy who, at least in the story, never actually knew Jesus? What the hell did he even know?

All the info passed onto him when he had a revelation? just like Mo? Joseph Smith? Moses?

Jesus!!!

 

[Vdubs]

Paul is a fraud, so to prove his point that Paul is not a fraud VD quotes more Paul.

You can't make this shit up.

That bothered me even back when I was Christian. I used to wonder why are we putting so much emphasis on this Paul guy who, at least in the story, never actually knew Jesus? What the hell did he even know?

All the info passed onto him when he had a revelation? just like Mo? Joseph Smith? Moses?

Jesus!!!

That's the only correct word in that whole potty post of yours.

 

[Vdubs]

The Catholic Church and community is the most vile and evil organisation humanity has ever collaborated in.
Forget Hitler, forget Leopold II, forget all the tyrants of mass extermination of humans.
The Roman Catholic Church is the number one, it’s the gold medal standard of the degradation of the human condition and spirit.
Wasn’t it the Romans that killed the Jewish bloke pretending to be born without sperm hitting the female egg?
Christians really are the prototypical Stockholm syndrome sufferers.
Guaranteed they all love Bibi Netanyahu for the same reasons.
How dare you raise an argument for the good that disgusting detritus of an institution has convened upon our little blue planet, you should apologise to this forum!

Many people here have their agendas. Thanks for sharing yours.
Apology- only to those who have been wronged, by the CC, by anyone, or by any organisation

 

[Vdubs]

No - it never will, Never. Throw away attitudes like this allow evil to prosper.

Aware of your personal grievances, and you are not alone.
Certainly not a throw away attitude.
Bad apples do not make the whole gamut of apple trees bad.

 

[Total Power]

That's the only correct word in that whole potty post of yours.

Another excellent rebuttal.

Why do you keep digging?

 

[Vdubs]

Vdubs this is why i call you out when you copy paste. Both Roy and I copypaste at times but we are able to defend our Pov. You are MIA again, just like last time and 100 times before? there's a difference between educated copy pasting and blind copy pasting.

Go for it.
Points made.
Nothing more needs to be said.
Don't want to poke the bear too often, do I?!

 

[Total Power]

Go for it.
Points made.
Nothing more needs to be said.
Don't want to poke the bear too often, do I?!

If you copy paste and people destroy your argument, i expect a rebuttal. Not childish adhoms and tantrum. This is why i object to your copy paste. Not because you copy pasted, but you rarely have an idea of what you copy pasted.

 

[Vdubs]

If you copy paste and people destroy your argument, i expect a rebuttal. Not childish adhoms and tantrum. This is why i object to your copy paste. Not because you copy pasted, but you rarely have an idea of what you copy pasted.

Is that so?
I need comprehension lessons from you do I?

 

[western royboy]

Aware of your personal grievances, and you are not alone.
Certainly not a throw away attitude.
Bad apples do not make the whole gamut of apple trees bad.

We aren’t talking about bad apples …it’s the whole orchard. Good deeds by a few are no comparison to the evil waged by the organisation.

 

[Vdubs]

We aren’t talking about bad apples …it’s the whole orchard. Good deeds by a few are no comparison to the evil waged by the organisation.

It's not my issue or argument to defend or attack the CC.
I know your pov and reasons and respect that.
My own dealings were not great, but after some years, all I can say is, I found God.