Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[IlovethePies]

i never said the war crimes were genocide, merely that that are propaganda ( both for Russia and against Ukraine)

But you do you. As I said I just hope when this is done people like you are made accountable. Being a useful idiot shouldn't be an excuse anymore

But, who decides whether they were actually "spreading Russian propaganda" or merely puncturing the official US/NATO propaganda narrative?

Because there are many useful idiots spreading US imperialism propaganda out there, and if the ultimate winner is not the NATO/US war criminals, then the useful idiots on your side of the river might be held accountable.

 

[Cap]

But, who decides whether they were actually "spreading Russian propaganda" or merely puncturing the official US/NATO propaganda narrative?

that sounds like something someone who spreads Russian propaganda would say

Honestly, i don't even know what puncturing NATO propaganda even means, most things we know about Russia come feom Russia its self (how its media literally tell us what they wamt to do with Ukraine) and countries that aren't or weren't part of Russia.

Edit - that was meant to say werent or aren't part of Nato

Because there are many useful idiots spreading US imperialism propaganda out there, and if the ultimate winner is not the NATO/US war criminals, then the useful idiots on your side of the river might be held accountable.

absolutely they will. They already do it now so i won't be suprised if they keep killing people who write this critical of them.

 

[IlovethePies]

Honestly, i don't even know what puncturing NATO propaganda even means, most things we know about Russia come feom Russia its self (how its media literally tell us what they wamt to do with Ukraine) and countries that aren't or weren't part of Russia.

Yes, Russian propaganda certainly exists as well, and is equally duplicitous as the US/NATO propaganda.
Everything you know about Russia comes from the US, or pro US/NATO media sources (that includes the ABC here in Australia), and Russian propaganda.

If you already agree with the US/NATO propaganda, it is very easy to reject the Russian propaganda
But the issue is, rejecting the Russian propaganda is just one side of a coin.

If you don/t have an alternative framework to analyse reality, then by rejecting Russian propaganda you just end up accepting the US/NATO propaganda (ie, the war began when Russia invaded Ukraine (there were no historical reasons leading up to it), the only reason Russia invaded was because Putin is a megalomaniac who wants to conquer the world.... blah....blah....blah).

 

[Cap]

Yes, Russian propaganda certainly exists as well, and is equally duplicitous as the US/NATO propaganda.
Everything you know about Russia comes from the US, or pro US/NATO media sources (that includes the ABC here in Australia), and Russian propaganda.

No, I've watched interviews with leaders and commentators from eastern europe and places surrounding Russia, i have friends from places like Denmark, Norway and Sweeden who have to live with Russia as a neighbour.

If you already agree with the US/NATO propaganda, it is very easy to reject the Russian propaganda
But the issue is, rejecting the Russian propaganda is just one side of a coin.

I've never said there isn't propaganda on both sides, merely pointed out that something can be true and be propaganda



This is anti Russian propaganda, but this is also true and actually happened.

If you don/t have an alternative framework to analyse reality, then by rejecting Russian propaganda you just end up accepting the US/NATO propaganda (ie, the war began when Russia invaded Ukraine (there were no historical reasons leading up to it), the only reason Russia invaded was because Putin is a megalomaniac who wants to conquer the world.... blah....blah....blah).

sure, some people might believe the war started at that point.

Others might also have fallen for the NATO expansion rubbish.

Putin probably doesn't want to take over the world, but he is a brutual dictator hellbent on restoring what he sees as Russias rightful place as a world power by any means he can.

You only need to listen to him to understand what he wants.

 

[IlovethePies]

No, I've watched interviews with leaders and commentators from eastern europe and places surrounding Russia, i have friends from places like Denmark, Norway and Sweeden who have to live with Russia as a neighbour.

I've never said there isn't propaganda on both sides, merely pointed out that something can be true and be propaganda



This is anti Russian propaganda, but this is also true and actually happened.

sure, some people might believe the war started at that point.

Others might also have fallen for the NATO expansion rubbish.

Putin probably doesn't want to take over the world, but he is a brutual dictator hellbent on restoring what he sees as Russias rightful place as a world power by any means he can.

You only need to listen to him to understand what he wants.

It would also be possible to search pro Russian twitter accounts/blogs etc and find war crimes that Ukrainian forces (such as Azov batallion neo Nazis) have committed against captured Russian soldiers, as well as against the ethnic Russian population in the Donbass.

All of this proves nothing, and leads to a tit for tat argument that clarifies no one.

To understand what is happening in Russia and Ukraine right now, it is necessary to review the history leading up to Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

And a history recounted not from the standpoint either of US imperialism, nor of the reactionary capitalist Putin regime.

A history that is analysed from the standpoint of the international working class, because the interests of the working class are utterly opposed to those of both US imperialism and Putin.

 

[Cap]

It would also be possible to search pro Russian twitter accounts/blogs etc and find war crimes that Ukrainian forces (such as Azov batallion neo Nazis) have committed against captured Russian soldiers, as well as against the ethnic Russian population in the Donbass.

I'm sure, to get to the point you are, you already have.

I mean you are still on the whole Nazi thing, even when literal Nazis are fighting for Russia.

All of this proves nothing, and leads to a tit for tat argument that clarifies no one.

It proves that anti Russian propaganda can be and in many cases is true and you can't always psuh back with, but Azov Nazis !!!!

To understand what is happening in Russia and Ukraine right now, it is necessary to review the history leading up to Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

Yes, even then Putin decided to go an invade his neighbour unprovoked.

Don't get me wrong, you'll make up lots of reasons that tell us he was provoked. But all them make Putin look even worse than he does now.

And a history recounted not from the standpoint either of US imperialism, nor of the reactionary capitalist Putin regime.

Yes, the answer to everything US imperialism.

i can justify this war because Ukraine wasn't an independent nation, it was under the thumb of the US.

How convenient

A history that is analysed from the standpoint of the international working class, because the interests of the working class are utterly opposed to those of both US imperialism and Putin.

Which has 0 to do with Putin deciding to invade Ukraine and when it pushed back, decided to wipe its population out.

 

[IlovethePies]

Yes, the answer to everything US imperialism.

i can justify this war because Ukraine wasn't an independent nation, it was under the thumb of the US.

How convenient

Which has 0 to do with Putin deciding to invade Ukraine and when it pushed back, decided to wipe its population out.

And this is where you are wrong.
I have never justified the war.

I have said from the start that putin represents the Russian capitalist class only, and the invasion of Ukraine was a barbaric and reactionary action which has served only to divide the Russian and Ukrainian working class.

I have explained the historical basis of the war, and the class interests involved. But I have repeatedly pointed out that this is a completely barbaric and retrograde war in which Ukrainian workers are slaughtering Russian workers in order to decide who gets the booty: Zelensky (and Ukrainian oligarchs, backed by US billionaires), or Putin (backed by Russian oligarchs).

Putin has not decided to wipe Ukraine's population out.
If you want an example of what that looks like, watch what's happening in Gaza and Lebanon.

 

[Cap]

And this is where you are wrong.
I have never justified the war.

I have said from the start that putin represents the Russian capitalist class only, and the invasion of Ukraine was a barbaric and reactionary action which has served only to divide the Russian and Ukrainian working class.

My apologies.

I'm not sure you are on the right track with divide. It's more the make sure they are always the same.

Putin couldn't have Ukrainian people living better lives than his Russian counterparts

I have explained the historical basis of the war, and the class interests involved. But I have repeatedly pointed out that this is a completely barbaric and retrograde war in which Ukrainian workers are slaughtering Russian workers in order to decide who gets the booty: Zelensky (and Ukrainian oligarchs, backed by US billionaires), or Putin (backed by Russian oligarchs).

i don't buy that, well, i buy the part wars are entered into by one part of group and fought by another.

I'll also agree that pre-war Ukraine was as corrupt as Russia, but the only reason Ukraine has any backing is because Putin made his mistakes.

Putin has not decided to wipe Ukraine's population out.

He is doing his best to kill or displace as many as he can..

If you want an example of what that looks like, watch what's happening in Gaza and Lebanon.

Israel is just more effective at it.

If Putin could, Putin would.

 

[IlovethePies]

My apologies.

I'm not sure you are on the right track with divide. It's more the make sure they are always the same.

Putin couldn't have Ukrainian people living better lives than his Russian counterparts

i don't buy that, well, i buy the part wars are entered into by one part of group and fought by another.

I'll also agree that pre-war Ukraine was as corrupt as Russia, but the only reason Ukraine has any backing is because Putin made his mistakes.



He is doing his best to kill or displace as many as he can..

Israel is just more effective at it.

If Putin could, Putin would.

Ok, well explain this then.
You just said Israel is more effective at killing and displacing people.
Who is backing Netanyahu? Of course, US imperialism
And who is backing Zelensky?
Well surprise, suprise, US imperialism.

Doesnt that start to make you wonder whether you should question the official framework?