Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

[HirdsTheWord]

They're shooting their own hostages ffs... While it may not be "deliberate" they sure as s**t aren't doing anything to avoid/minimise/mitigate civilian casualties.

I wouldn't say they aren't doing anything.

But they certainly aren't doing enough. That i agree on 100%.

 

[bzparkes]

Proof? I haven't even heard the IDF claim that they were built using child labour.

Deaths of 160 Palestinian Children Forced to Work on Terror Tunnels; SWC Urges UN Human Rights Council Investigation of Hamas

www.wiesenthal.com

Although interestingly the JPS ended up amending the article was supposedly edited in a 'late' stage to add the qualifier that it was children, when they meant to say 'people'.

JPS Responds to Israel's Prime Minister

www.palestine-studies.org

Not sure why they updated and amended it 2 years after the original was reported, so it appears that there is indeed conjecture between the number reported, which was 'according to Hamas officials' and the original author states they were told this while on a police patrol in 2011, yet refuted and updated in 2013 after the article blew up.

Child Labor Deaths In Hamas Tunnels Are No Surprise | National Review

The resurfacing of a 2012 report that 160 children died working in the Gaza tunnels has caused a media frenzy. But Hamas’ use of child labor should come as no surprise. In fact, the true numbers of…

www.nationalreview.com

I guess it's hard to get any actual factual information out of a region where both sides constantly pollute public opinion with relentless propaganda.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Melbourne is full of tunnels, old sewer tunnels, old subway tunnels, old access tunnels, cable tunnels.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Your brain is broken.

Report after report of Israel deliberately targeting civilians. We are watching this happen in real time. We have Israeli leaders telling us, time after time, that they consider ALL GAZANS to be members of Hamas.

And now, if dropping thousands of dumb bombs is not enough...Just yesterday this report was released by Human Rights Watch.

Israel: Starvation Used as Weapon of War in Gaza​

HirdsTheWord would have been one of those WW2 era Germans living next to a concentration camp, buying the prison guards drinks and later claiming that they thought it was just a PoW camp. You really don't understand the scale of the horror Israel is currently inflicting.

lol

HRW has a known bias against Israel that dates back to before 2014. Senior HRW members are even known to have collected Nazi memorabilia. And you are using it as some source of truth?

I am no supporter of how Israel has gone about this, but I'll need more than the vibe before i agree Israel is conducting a proven Genocide, and what you have provided to date as "proof' does not cut it, especially with a source like HRW.

 

[faible]

I'll need more than the vibe

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/

A few thousand dead is a bit more than a 'vibe' to me.

As I said weeks ago; the civilian casualties appear to be a feature, not a bug.

 

[geoffjennings79]

I dont share the viewpoint that Israel are deliberately targeting civilians but am also not in support of their mass bombing approach. never have been.

What do you mean by the bolded bit? Australia has voted for a ceasefire along with most of the rest of the world and we are not the only ones providing military assistance to Israel. I'm confused by the picture you are painting that Australia is out on some kind of island on its own?

By the bit you bolded I mean the entire planet is aware approx 20,000 Palestinians, overwhelmingly non-combatants, have been indiscriminately killed since October 7th. Partly due to Australia supplying Hamas locations via Pine Gap, knowing FULL WELL that Israel is doing nothing to minimise civilian casualties.

Island on its own?! WTF.

US and others are supplying hardware that is knowingly killing civilians. We are supplying Intel that is knowingly killing civilians. Civilians by the 1,000s.

WTF is confusing about that picture?!

 

[Saint]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/

A few thousand dead is a bit more than a 'vibe' to me.

As I said weeks ago; the civilian casualties appear to be a feature, not a bug.

And Israel is not accompanying civilian deaths with the names or status of the targets.

Unless Israel admit to how they targeted their bombing campaign, which they won't, we'll never know how careless they were with civilian lives. Luckily, the rules of war put the onus of proof on the attacker, not the dead civilians.

So until the IDF prove why they killed so many civilians, I'll continue to believe they've been breaking the laws. In which case, any funding, support or protection of the Israeli regime should be shamed, just as it would of Hamas.

Any Australian serving with the IDF should have their Australian citizenship revoked.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

By the bit you bolded I mean the entire planet is aware approx 20,000 Palestinians, overwhelmingly non-combatants, have been indiscriminately killed since October 7th. Partly due to Australia supplying Hamas locations via Pine Gap, knowing FULL WELL that Israel is doing nothing to minimise civilian casualties.

Island on its own?! WTF.

US and others are supplying hardware that is knowingly killing civilians. We are supplying Intel that is knowingly killing civilians. Civilians by the 1,000s.

WTF is confusing about that picture?!

We are obviously aware of that. Thats why we are voting for a ceasefire?

i think i get what you are saying, but it is not realistic.

Regardless the reality is though wether we like it or not, Hamas won't just be allowed to continue after what they did though, the only thing that would speed it up now is if they surrendered in full. Which is unlikely.

 

[Carn The Berries]

And Israel is not accompanying civilian deaths with the names or status of the targets.

Unless Israel admit to how they targeted their bombing campaign, which they won't, we'll never know how careless they were with civilian lives. Luckily, the rules of war put the onus of proof on the attacker, not the dead civilians.

So until the IDF prove why they killed so many civilians, I'll continue to believe they've been breaking the laws. In which case, any funding, support or protection of the Israeli regime should be shamed, just as it would of Hamas.

Any Australian serving with the IDF should have their Australian citizenship revoked.

This is one thing that I've found strange the entire way through this conflict. The IDF/Israeli government are happy to shout from the rooftops how dangerous Hamas are and that they will continue to do everything they need to do to ensure they are eliminated, but we get scant detail about who, of note, they have actually been able to eliminate.

Surely, if this was a resoundingly successful campaign thus far, they'd be showing the world what they've achieved, rather than just telling us about tunnels?

 

[Carn The Berries]

We are obviously aware of that. Thats why we are voting for a ceasefire?

i think i get what you are saying, but it is not realistic.

Can you please stop referencing the UN vote (remember, we abstained from the first one). It's non-binding and means absolutely jack s***.

Coming out and publicly shaming the US by pointing out that they are somewhat complicit in these civilian deaths might actually carry some weight.

 

[geoffjennings79]

This is one thing that I've found strange the entire way through this conflict. The IDF/Israeli government are happy to shout from the rooftops how dangerous Hamas are and that they will continue to do everything they need to do to ensure they are eliminated, but we get scant detail about who, of note, they have actually been able to eliminate.

Surely, if this was a resoundingly successful campaign thus far, they'd be showing the world what they've achieved, rather than just telling us about tunnels?

Well, they've killed some of their own people trying to surrender, a couple of Christian women, about 70 journalists, and thousands of children.

So comparatively, finding a tunnel is quite an achievement for the super-sophisticated IDF!

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Can you please stop referencing the UN vote (remember, we abstained from the first one). It's non-binding and means absolutely jack s***.

Coming out and publicly shaming the US by pointing out that they are somewhat complicit in these civilian deaths might actually carry some weight.

That will not happen and it's not realistic to expect it too.

We are trying buy nuclear subs off the US at this very moment - we aren't going to kick the hand that feeds us rightly or wrongly.

 

[Muddiemoose]

I am dumbfounded how any government can parade the finding of a tunnel as some sort of got ya moment.

Melbourne is full of tunnels, old sewer tunnels, old subway tunnels, old access tunnels, cable tunnels.

These tunnels go between buildings, up and down busy streets and are used for many reasons.

Anyone could take a phot with a headline and make it sinister.

Tunnels are normal and in every city.

Plus the idea of Hamas being fortified underground and using tunnel systems has been widely reported since the start of the conflict it’s literally not new information

Im no military strategist but in these situations using air bombardments is historically next to useless in these situations and the fact it’s Israel’s 1 wood in the conflict just shows that the motive isn’t just to eliminate Hamas, it’s to cause as much damage to the Palestinian people as possible both in terms of civilian loss and civilian infrastructure

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Listen to yourself. You are just repeating Israeli propaganda at this point.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe HRW have an issue with Israel for a reason? Like that they do not give a f*ck about human rights?

You are peak dunning-kruger. Sitting there saying you know more about a situation than a legitimate human rights NGO

ok lol.

 

[Carn The Berries]

That will not happen and it's not realistic to expect it too.

We are trying buy nuclear subs off the US at this very moment - we aren't going to kick the hand that feeds us rightly or wrongly.

That's fine, but let's own it and not pretend that we are actually interested in trying to minimise civilian casualties in this conflict. To imply we are by joining a non-binding vote is pure BS.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

That's fine, but let's own it and not pretend that we are actually interested in trying to minimise civilian casualties in this conflict. To imply we are by joining a non-binding vote is pure BS.

Ok so if we vitoed the UNGA vote, what would you say then?

 

[Carn The Berries]

Ok so if we vitoed the UNGA vote, what would you say then?

We would never do that, because we have no power of veto.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

We would never do that, because we have no power of veto.

sorry i mean abstain. IE didn't vote one way or the other.

isn't voting better for better than abstaining?

 

[Carn The Berries]

sorry i mean abstain. IE didn't vote one way or the other.

isn't voting better for better than abstaining?

Marginally, yes. We should never have abstained in the first place, it was gutless.

As far as our actions within the UN framework, I agree we are doing all that we can. It's what we say and do outside of the confines of the UN that I take issue with.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Marginally, yes. We should never have abstained in the first place, it was gutless.

As far as our actions within the UN framework, I agree we are doing all that we can. It's what we say and do outside of the confines of the UN that I take issue with.

i dont disagree with you but the idea we will go against the US in a public setting just is not realistic for us. We have too much on the go with the US atm to just and show them up verbally on the world stage.

 

[Kurve]

anyhoo, pity you've taken the bat and ball and vamoosed from here.

There's little point in engaging in here when every argument can be shut down with 'thousands of dead babies' and which is of course unacceptable, inhumane and disgusting but which I understand there's not a thing I can do about and I don't want to engage on it. To do so for me, feels I'm doing exactly what Hamas intended.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

lol

HRW has a known bias against Israel that dates back to before 2014. Senior HRW members are even known to have collected Nazi memorabilia. And you are using it as some source of truth?

I am no supporter of how Israel has gone about this, but I'll need more than the vibe before i agree Israel is conducting a proven Genocide, and what you have provided to date as "proof' does not cut it, especially with a source like HRW.

Maybe you should listen when Israeli officials tell you what they are doing, and compare it to what it looks like they are doing?

Israel council leader says Gaza 'should become Auschwitz'

The head of a local council in Israel has said that the Gaza Strip should be ‘emptied and levelled flat, just like in Auschwitz’.

www.newarab.com

 

[Carn The Berries]

i dont disagree with you but the idea we will go against the US in a public setting just is not realistic for us. We have too much on the go with the US atm to just and show them up verbally on the world stage.

And like I said before, if that is the case we need to own that and admit that, as a political entity, Australia would rather kow-tow to the United States than take meaningful action to try and reduce the severity of this conflict.

As it stands, to suggest we are doing otherwise is mere delusion.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Maybe you should listen when Israeli officials tell you what they are doing, and compare it to what it looks like they are doing?

Israel council leader says Gaza 'should become Auschwitz'

The head of a local council in Israel has said that the Gaza Strip should be ‘emptied and levelled flat, just like in Auschwitz’.

www.newarab.com

head of Local Council.......does he have any control over the IDF?

I have never said there are not lunatics in Israel, there were also members of government who suggested the use of nuclear bombs for example. Doesn't mean this is what is transpiring.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

And like I said before, if that is the case we need to own that and admit that, as a political entity, Australia would rather kow-tow to the United States than take meaningful action to try and reduce the severity of this conflict.

As it stands, to suggest we are doing otherwise is mere delusion.

i think we are doing what we reasonably can given all things.