Mega Thread Best 22 Season 2012

[BarneyBent]

Gee, a sample of two games, and no finals, that makes your argument convincing

I wasn't trying to be convincing, I was trying to illustrate how unconvincing your argument was. You brought up White's W/L ratio as part of comparing him with Pyke, which is ridiculous since Pyke only played two games.

The Swans played our best footy in the last 6 weeks this year, with wins over the top teams. J White was in the structure. M Pyke was running around in Ainslie, with modest impact.

Yeah, and we also played some of our worst football (including the draw to Melbourne, the loss to Adelaide, the loss to Freo, and the semi-final loss to Hawthorn) with White in the side.

Come back and apologise in 12 months, when Pyke is GAWN.

Why would I? I'm not the one making any guarantees about where he'll be in 12 months. He could well end up gone, for all I know. You, on the other hand, are making outlandish claims. I hope you'll come back and apologise if/when Pyke is on the list for 2013.

No hatred here mate, just pointing out that Pyke isn't in the best 22.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You hate him. Maybe not on a personal level, but you hate him as a player, and it's far beyond any reasonable or measured distaste. You hate him. At least have the balls to admit it.

 

[Tippett2Goal]

So no room for AJ and LRT ? Armstrong ahead of AJ ????

AJ will rotate off the bench, no spot for LRT unless we are playing Hawthorn, no other side has the talls to require LRT, Grundy, Richards, and Johnson all being in same team.

 

[HardenUp]

You keep telling yourself that. It was only a few days ago that you were on the St Kilda board telling them how "useless" Pyke is.

Ummm, "useless" versus "hate". Look them up in the dictionary.

 

[HardenUp]

I wasn't trying to be convincing.

That's what I thought, but thanks for the laughs.

All players need to be treated fairly and equally, not as a novelty.

Let's discuss later, as further evidence is revealed and the romance of the experiment evaporates.

 

[BarneyBent]

That's what I thought, but thanks for the laughs.

Thanks for addressing my points.

All players need to be treated fairly and equally, not as a novelty.

I absolutely agree. Let's look at some evidence, shall we? This year (albeit in just two games), Pyke averaged 7.5 disposals, 4 marks, 13.5 hitouts, 3 tackles and 1 goal per game. White averaged 7.8 disposals, 2 marks, 5.8 hitouts, 3 tackles and 0.7 goals per game. So Pyke beat White in marks (doubled White), hitouts (doubled White), and goals (1.5 times White) per game, equalled White for tackles, and lost to White only in disposals, and only by 0.3 per game.

Last year, Pyke proved himself a very capable ruckman across 18 games, averaging 7.5 touches and 16.5 hitouts. Nothing special, but AFL standard, and a fantastic effort for a guy in his second year of football at any level.

It's difficult to compare Pyke and White on the basis of their output last year, as White played a different position. However, taking, very reluctantly, DT scores as the best measure upon which two players of different positions (who are not defenders) can be compared, Pyke averaged 52.6, White 42.2.

Let's discuss later, as further evidence is revealed and the romance of the experiment evaporates.

I look forward to it. Somehow I get the feeling you'll only be interested in discussion if Pyke fails, as you so clearly hope he will.

 

[Naphula]

Come back and apologise in 12 months, when Pyke is GAWN.

No true supporter should have to apologise for giving a hard working player a chance to prove themselves.

 

[GotTheGoodes]

Yeah ok so we had a very settled side in 2005 whihc was one factor leading us to the GF... that was before the sub rule, the press and the general speed of the game lifting as it is now. If anything, the higher the rotations in selection the fresher our players will be come crunch games and the more experienced some of our younger blokes will become. It makes sense to me that we should rotate players throughout the season. Give the older blokes a rest while the younger blokes get some game time. Similarly, you can rotate young for young (e.g. Pyke/Jesse) as the situation changes &/or based on form. Flexibility as opposed to a static selection criteria is where I think we can gain an advantage. It's a team game and if the coaches think a player is due for a rest or not compatible with the gameplan/opponent the week coming then throw in someone else who should do a better/similar job... How can that be a bad thing?? I see it as easing sore players through the season and giving our future core players some valuable experience.

 

[HardenUp]

Nothing special, but ... a fantastic effort for a guy in his second year of football at any level.

I don't have time to correct all your points, but this sums up your acceptance of mediocrity.

The club aspires to win premierships, not write fairytales.

Please diarise to start a thread in October 2012 entitled:
Pyke pikes - I was wrong.

I am certainly not guaranteeing that White will excel in 2012, as he still has significant deficiencies, but he offers far more flexibility to our structure than Pyke, particularly given the sub rule.

 

[lock33]

I am certainly not guaranteeing that White will excel in 2012, as he still has significant deficiencies, but he offers far more flexibility to our structure than Pyke, particularly given the sub rule.

sub rule plans arent proven and it hasent worked for us, Id prefer to go 2 genuine rucks and a genuine forward. At least those very important spots are pumping at 100% at the same time, not at 80% .. if that makes sense.. Who says it was the way to combat the sub rule anyway?
You will see changes this year from all teams.

 

[Aardvark]

I am certainly not guaranteeing that White will excel in 2012, as he still has significant deficiencies, but he offers far more flexibility to our structure than Pyke, particularly given the sub rule.

Yep ...but its a shame he can't mark, get a hitout or kick a goal occasionally.
But i'm sure flexibility is a useful attribute...........if your a gymnast,

 

[GoTheSwannies]

Yeah ok so we had a very settled side in 2005 whihc was one factor leading us to the GF... that was before the sub rule, the press and the general speed of the game lifting as it is now. If anything, the higher the rotations in selection the fresher our players will be come crunch games and the more experienced some of our younger blokes will become. It makes sense to me that we should rotate players throughout the season. Give the older blokes a rest while the younger blokes get some game time. Similarly, you can rotate young for young (e.g. Pyke/Jesse) as the situation changes &/or based on form. Flexibility as opposed to a static selection criteria is where I think we can gain an advantage. It's a team game and if the coaches think a player is due for a rest or not compatible with the gameplan/opponent the week coming then throw in someone else who should do a better/similar job... How can that be a bad thing?? I see it as easing sore players through the season and giving our future core players some valuable experience.

I'm a firm believer in that philosophy, it not only gives the older players a much needed rest and keeps them primed for finals, it also means we're getting games into our youngsters, while getting a good look at the fringe players and seeing who is best to step in in the case of injuries come finals. The other positive (and especially with the apparent depth we currently have) getting games into our fringe players will drive their trade value up so that if we have to discard a couple at the end of the year we may get decent picks for them or may be able to package them with a pick to trade for a top-liner whereas if they get no game time they'll have absolutely no currency.

 

[vonn]

Don't understand the hate for Pyke. Is athletic, a good size and improving constantly. Had a great game this year before injury, and only a fool would suggest otherwise. Coaches obviously rate him, he got most improved annnnnndd played snrs before Seaby who I don't think was injured then.

 

[disgruntled goat]

I don't have time to correct all your points, but this sums up your acceptance of mediocrity.

The club aspires to win premierships, not write fairytales.

Please diarise to start a thread in October 2012 entitled:
Pyke pikes - I was wrong.

I am certainly not guaranteeing that White will excel in 2012, as he still has significant deficiencies, but he offers far more flexibility to our structure than Pyke, particularly given the sub rule.

So, a bloke slags off Pyke and cops it from all corners; but it's okay to slag off White, as several posters have done all heckin'g season ... yet no one steps up and accuses those posters of "hate"???

I'm a fan of both Jesse and the Canadian so I'm not buying into the argument but there's a lot of bollocks being thrown at you in this thread.

The fact is neither player has killed it in seniors yet; what galls me is the double standards of several posters on this board.

 

[BarneyBent]

I don't have time to correct all your points, but this sums up your acceptance of mediocrity.

The club aspires to win premierships, not write fairytales.

Acceptance of mediocrity? We didn't have any better options! Pyke's performances that year were better than you'd expect for any first or second year ruckman. He was AFL standard, and he performed his role adequately. It was also part of a steep learning curve.

It's got nothing to do with fairytales. If it was about fairytales then Chris McKaigue would have played games this year, but he hasn't, he's back in Ireland, because he wasn't good enough. Pyke WAS good enough, and still is, which is why he gets games, and gets contracts.

Please diarise to start a thread in October 2012 entitled:
Pyke pikes - I was wrong.

Only if you do.

I am certainly not guaranteeing that White will excel in 2012, as he still has significant deficiencies, but he offers far more flexibility to our structure than Pyke, particularly given the sub rule.

Upon what do you base this? Pyke is vastly superior in the ruck, and on (admittedly very limited) exposed form arguably just as good up forward.

So, a bloke slags off Pyke and cops it from all corners; but it's okay to slag off White, as several posters have done all heckin'g season ... yet no one steps up and accuses those posters of "hate"???

I'm a fan of both Jesse and the Canadian so I'm not buying into the argument but there's a lot of bollocks being thrown at you in this thread.

The fact is neither player has killed it in seniors yet; what galls me is the double standards of several posters on this board.

I assume I'm one of the posters with "double standards"?

I've never slagged off White. I've criticised him, I've called his performances poor, but I've always maintained he has talent, and I've always maintained he should be given a go of it down back. The fact is, however, that he has been playing the game much longer than Pyke, he has been in the system longer than Pyke, he has been given far greater chances than Pyke, and he has returned less.

He has done nothing to suggest he has AFL potential as a FF since 2009. He's fully physically developed, so that's not an excuse. How much time do we want to give him?

The criticisms of White may border on the offensive at times (calling him a pea-heart, etc, which I think is pathetic), but for the most part criticisms of White are reasoned and justified. He has been given chance after chance, and continually failed to impact games.

Suggesting, on the other hand, that Pyke is rubbish and will be off the list next year, is not reasoned nor justified. With every year, Pyke's game has improved, he has shown a greater understanding of the game, and has been able to greater use his natural sporting prowess and athleticism in this code. He is a far superior ruckman to White, and has shown enough to suggest he can have an impact up forward as well. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that Pyke's improvement curve will suddenly drop. It may stagnate, and who knows, maybe out of nowhere his performances will plummet. I'm not the one trying to make predictions here.

The point is that HardenUp's argument boils down to "Pyke is Canadian; therefore, he's only getting games because he's Canadian; therefore, he shouldn't be getting games". He has made no attempt to justify his assertion that Pyke isn't an AFL standard player, nor that he's a worse player than White.

It is, quite frankly, bullshit, and I thought an intelligent poster like yourself would be able to see the difference.

 

[TheGoatBaron]

I don't understand the hatred for Jesse White, he's still a developing player, if people are willing to give Pike time to develop, the same luxury should be handed to White. I think, a lot of people on here are too harsh at times on this board, way too harsh! Hopefully White will produce next year and prove some of you doubters wrong! Go you Great White, go!!

PS: I'm also a fan of Mike Pyke too, but prefer to have just Mumford rucking at this stage.

 

[disgruntled goat]

Acceptance of mediocrity? We didn't have any better options! Pyke's performances that year were better than you'd expect for any first or second year ruckman. He was AFL standard, and he performed his role adequately. It was also part of a steep learning curve.

It's got nothing to do with fairytales. If it was about fairytales then Chris McKaigue would have played games this year, but he hasn't, he's back in Ireland, because he wasn't good enough. Pyke WAS good enough, and still is, which is why he gets games, and gets contracts.



Only if you do.



Upon what do you base this? Pyke is vastly superior in the ruck, and on (admittedly very limited) exposed form arguably just as good up forward.



I assume I'm one of the posters with "double standards"?

I've never slagged off White. I've criticised him, I've called his performances poor, but I've always maintained he has talent, and I've always maintained he should be given a go of it down back. The fact is, however, that he has been playing the game much longer than Pyke, he has been in the system longer than Pyke, he has been given far greater chances than Pyke, and he has returned less.

He has done nothing to suggest he has AFL potential as a FF since 2009. He's fully physically developed, so that's not an excuse. How much time do we want to give him?

The criticisms of White may border on the offensive at times (calling him a pea-heart, etc, which I think is pathetic), but for the most part criticisms of White are reasoned and justified. He has been given chance after chance, and continually failed to impact games.

Suggesting, on the other hand, that Pyke is rubbish and will be off the list next year, is not reasoned nor justified. With every year, Pyke's game has improved, he has shown a greater understanding of the game, and has been able to greater use his natural sporting prowess and athleticism in this code. He is a far superior ruckman to White, and has shown enough to suggest he can have an impact up forward as well. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that Pyke's improvement curve will suddenly drop. It may stagnate, and who knows, maybe out of nowhere his performances will plummet. I'm not the one trying to make predictions here.

The point is that HardenUp's argument boils down to "Pyke is Canadian; therefore, he's only getting games because he's Canadian; therefore, he shouldn't be getting games". He has made no attempt to justify his assertion that Pyke isn't an AFL standard player, nor that he's a worse player than White.

It is, quite frankly, bullshit, and I thought an intelligent poster like yourself would be able to see the difference.

No, the point is there has been accusations of "hate" levelled at HardenUp over Pyke, and he's been condemned for it, yet no one stepped in and condemned all those people who, as you point out, have fired some disgraceful barbs at White.

THAT is where I see a double standard ... to me, it feels like there's an element of mob mentality bullying ... and I certainly didn't get an overriding impression it was some "Canadian" thing. In comparison, several heckin'g toads on the St Kilda board made it perfectly clear their anti-Irish racist sentiments about Tommy Walsh leaving the club.

As for the intelligent poster crap, don't patronise me. You've made it clear several times this past season that you don't find much intelligence in my posts.

 

[DeadlyAkkuret]

Whoa, talk about a heated discussion.

I'm going to stay clear of the bickering, but my opinion is that Pyke does offer more around the ground and has more of a presence. Your second ruckman needs that, they need to be felt around the ground otherwise it's just another tall guy getting in the way.

At their best I'd have Jesse clearly ahead, but unfortunately we only see Jesse's best about 15% of the time. If he's spilling marks and only offering a little in terms of ruck work, he's not making the best of his physical attributes. I still think he'd benefit from a good 2-3 months playing purely as a forward with no other roles to think about, but that horse may have bolted if Walsh starts and starts well.

 

[BarneyBent]

No, the point is there has been accusations of "hate" levelled at HardenUp over Pyke, and he's been condemned for it, yet no one stepped in and condemned all those people who, as you point out, have fired some disgraceful barbs at White.

THAT is where I see a double standard ... to me, it feels like there's an element of mob mentality bullying ... and I certainly didn't get an overriding impression it was some "Canadian" thing. In comparison, several heckin'g toads on the St Kilda board made it perfectly clear their anti-Irish racist sentiments about Tommy Walsh leaving the club.

Probably because the hate gets mixed up with the reasonable criticism, and doesn't stand out as much. I know I've tried to call out a few people that have made vindictive comments towards White. I don't think it's a double standard, just a symptom of context.

As for the intelligent poster crap, don't patronise me. You've made it clear several times this past season that you don't find much intelligence in my posts.

WTF? Are you sure you're not getting me mixed up with someone else? I don't agree with you on a few issues, mainly McVeigh and White's potential as a FF, but that doesn't mean I don't think you're a good poster. A bit grumpy, maybe (disgruntled, even), but I would have had you as one of the best on the Swans board.

I don't understand the hatred for Jesse White, he's still a developing player, if people are willing to give Pike time to develop, the same luxury should be handed to White. I think, a lot of people on here are too harsh at times on this board, way too harsh! Hopefully White will produce next year and prove some of you doubters wrong! Go you Great White, go!!

PS: I'm also a fan of Mike Pyke too, but prefer to have just Mumford rucking at this stage.

In what sense is White still developing? Physically? No. Learning the game? No (he's been playing since he was a kid). I appreciate big men take longer to develop, but White is turning 24 next year. Jarrad McVeigh, who we can all say was a late developer, was 23 when he won the Bob Skilton medal. Kieran Jack was 23 when he won it as well, and he HAS come from a non-AFL background.

White has played 53 games, next year will be his 6th year on the list. If he's not winning his spot on performances, rather than potential, then he simply should not be getting games.

I've said numerous times that I think White has potential in the backline. Initiative and marking are his two biggest problems IMO, so giving him a very specific and simple task which doesn't involve marking (follow your opponent and spoil the ball whenever it's kicked to him) could be the making of him. It might be a failure, but he's been a failure as a FF, has perhaps just scraped a pass mark as a FF/2nd ruckman, but he could be a genuine success as a gorilla defender.

 

[swans4eva]

Here goes my Best 22 at the moment for 2012

B: Smith, Richards, Johnson
HB: Malceski, Grundy, Mattner
C: O'Keefe, Goodes, McVeigh
HF: Spangher, Reid, McGlynn
F: White, Walsh, Morton
Ru: Mumford, Jack, Kennedy
Int: J. Bolton, Hannebery, Shaw
Sub: Rohan

Emg: Armstrong, LRT, Bird

Players who will continue to push for selection: Pyke, Parker, Lamb, Jetta, TDL.

The way I see it is that injuries will be a big determining factor in how successful we are next year. I believe that our best 22 all firing is top four material easily. However, this is obviously more easily said than done.
Thoughts?

 

[drasticswans]

We've all seen that jesse has potential. He was killing it near the end of the 09 season. He could actually mark back then, taking 7,8,7,10 in the last 4 rounds. Everyone had such high hopes for the 2010 season. There was a clear drop of in 2010 and i was so disappointed because i was on the jesse white bandwagon at the time. I was hoping he would reach his potential this season but once again he didnt do very well (didnt do poorly, but certainly didnt do well). In fact his marks per game dropped off again (n yeah theres alot of other stats which you could go into, but his marking seems to be the most criticized). When it comes down to it..you expect a player to improve, and he hasnt improved. Hes showed flashes of his skill/potential but hasnt dont it with ANY consistency. Im sure everyone realises that potential alone wont get you very far. So really if he cant start playing with consistency he surely has to be dropped. Swans coaches have kept dropping him for form..so they obviously see that he has potential but they'll lose patience eventually.

Mike Pyke on the other hand has showed continuous improvement and while Jesse White seems to be the better forward (or at least is capable of being a better forward), Pykes ruck work I think is better from the limited sample space we've had.

In the end other players will come into the equation. LRT might in fact become preferred by coaches to both of them and IF tommy walsh kicks on, the white/pyke spot might be put into jeopardy. No reason why you cant play more talls, but sydney tends to try to apply defensive pressure in the forward line..and thats much harder if you're loaded with talls.

 

[drasticswans]

Here goes my Best 22 at the moment for 2012

B: Smith, Richards, Johnson
HB: Malceski, Grundy, Mattner
C: O'Keefe, Goodes, McVeigh
HF: Spangher, Reid, McGlynn
F: White, Walsh, Morton
Ru: Mumford, Jack, Kennedy
Int: J. Bolton, Hannebery, Shaw
Sub: Rohan

Emg: Armstrong, LRT, Bird

Players who will continue to push for selection: Pyke, Parker, Lamb, Jetta, TDL.

The way I see it is that injuries will be a big determining factor in how successful we are next year. I believe that our best 22 all firing is top four material easily. However, this is obviously more easily said than done.
Thoughts?

You've forgotten to mention Tom Mitchell. Early days yet but theres no reason why he wouldnt be pushing for selection at some point this year.

Also not that it matters much, but surely shaw will be on the run on team, he came 2nd in best n fairest so clearly coaches rate him.

Other then that, despite spanger playing well for us at end of last year, his spot and whites spot are probably under the most pressure

Other then that, i dont see Morton starting from round 1 unless he has an amazing preseason

 

[RUNVS]

We do this every year on this board. We get excited over our "amazing" depth and look at all our players wondering how we can fit them all into our best 22. By Round 11 however we are all complaining that there is no one in the reserves good enough to replace players in the best 22 who are performing badly.

 

[awesummm]

We do this every year on this board. We get excited over our "amazing" depth and look at all our players wondering how we can fit them all into our best 22. By Round 11 however we are all complaining that there is no one in the reserves good enough to replace players in the best 22 who are performing badly.

This

 

[TheWhiteRhino]

We have had depth in previous years but I don't think we've had the same genuine competition for spots all across the field. Some of the main ones I think will be:

Mitchell/ Bird
LRT/ White/ Pyke/ Seaby
Lamb/ TDL
Rohan/ Jetta
Morton/ Spangher

I can honestly only see one the guys (at most) in each line making the squad.

Speaking of which, selecting our best 22 was extremely difficult but here's what I came up with:

B: Smith, Richards, Johnson
HB: Malceski, Grundy, Mattner
C: Hannebery, Goodes, McVeigh
HF: O'Keefe, Reid, McGlynn
F: Rohan, Walsh, Morton
Ru: Mumford, Jack, Kennedy
Int: Bolton, White, Shaw
Sub: Armstrong/ Parker (can't split them)

On the cusp: Mitchell, LRT, Bird, Lamb, TDL, Spangher, Jetta

 

[Beesto]

We have had depth in previous years but I don't think we've had the same genuine competition for spots all across the field. Some of the main ones I think will be:

Mitchell/ Bird
LRT/ White/ Pyke/ Seaby
Lamb/ TDL
Rohan/ Jetta
Morton/ Spangher

I can honestly only see one the guys (at most) in each line making the squad.

Speaking of which, selecting our best 22 was extremely difficult but here's what I came up with:

B: Smith, Richards, Johnson
HB: Malceski, Grundy, Mattner
C: Hannebery, Goodes, McVeigh
HF: O'Keefe, Reid, McGlynn
F: Rohan, Walsh, Morton
Ru: Mumford, Jack, Kennedy
Int: Bolton, White, Shaw
Sub: Armstrong/ Parker (can't split them)

On the cusp: Mitchell, LRT, Bird, Lamb, TDL, Spangher, Jetta

Shaw came 2nd in our BF and he can't get a start ahead of Malceski who wasn't in the 22 v hawks. And only one mid on the bench