Best sides that didnt win a flag

[Chewy]

Geelong I agree with, the other two no way.

Carlton had Hawthorns measure in 87, and that Hawks team was probably their 'weakest' in that 1983-89 period. If you'd said 84-85 Hawthorn i'd agree. Those two sides would have beaten any of the Carlton premiership sides of the 80's, and I reckon would have beaten most premiership sides since.

Sorry Diablo, but you're wrong about this.

Carlton did not have Hawthorn's measure in 1987 until Jason Dunstall hurt his ankle in the 2nd Semi Final. Hawthorn were leading the game by 3-4 goals and Carlton (led by Sticks) stormed over the top of us in the second half. Until then, Dunstall was a certaintly to kick his first ton. He missed the Grand Final and was stranded on 94 goals. Hawthorn copped a number of injuries during the 87 finals and were forced to play half-fit stars.

Earlier in the season, Hawthorn had thrashed Carlton by 8 goals in round 1, then gave the Blues a start, then overhauled them to win by one point in their match of the season clash out at Waverley in round 14.

Sydney was red hot in 1987 and were clearly the third best team. Yet Hawthorn whipped them by 99 points in the Qualifying Final. When he was on the park, Dermott Brereton was in the form of his life in 1987, completely dominant, on a par with Wayne Carey's best. The Hawks also had John Platten in Brownlow form. Dermie has said that this was best Hawthorn team. That's his biased opinion, but Hawthorn did win 17 home and away games and finished with a percentage of 147. They also had NO RIGHT to win the 1987 Preliminary Final vs Melbourne. Everything was against them that day and yet they still won.

The 1987 Hawks must be included in any discussion of this nature. They dominated the 1986, 1988 and 1989 seasons. In 1987 it was only injuries (and a brilliant, pumped-up Carlton team) that prevented them from equalling Collingwood's record of 4 flags in succession.

The Collingwood sides that lost those GF's did well to even be there. They were a so so side that had every ounce of ability extracted from them by great coaching from Tom Hafey.

This is true. Apart from Fabulous Phil, Peter Moore and a young Daicos, Hafey's Pies were very light on for genuine class. Ray Shaw was always dangerous, Billy Picken went alright, Rene Kink was hot and cold. The rest of them were just a good, solid bunch, nothing special. They were a very resilient team to reach those GFs and get so close. They also rode their luck in a number of close finals.

Geelong 1989 - One of the best teams never to win a GF full stop. Unfortunately, we came up against a combination I rate as the best i've ever seen. We had a better defense in that year too, with guys like Yeates and Bos still going.

This is my nomination.

When talk turns towards the best sides NOT to win the flag, I favour the teams that dipped out altogether, rather than isolate each single season. For that reason, I place Geelong 1989-1992 and Adelaide 2005-2006 above teams like Hawthorn 1987, West Coast 1991 and Essendon 1999 or 2001.

The Cats had everything going for them in 1989. Ablett was in the form of his career. Their midfield was also at its peak: Couch, Bairstow, Bews, Hocking (break out season) Bruns, Scott, Steve Hocking and Bruce Lindner on the back flanks! Stoneham, Brownless and Exell up forward, complementing Ablett who roamed wherever he liked. Bourke in the ruck. They were an awesome unit. The Cats wowed the general public that season. Not just Ablett, but the way the whole team piled on the goals.

1991 - It was always going to be a case of the winner of the 2nd semi winning the flag, and Hawthorn got up by 2 points in that game. Had it been the other way around, i've no doubt it would have all been different on GF day.

I reckon in hindsight, this was the one that got away, more than any of Geelong's 2nd place finishes. The Eagles were the new force and the Hawks were old, but had one last shot in them. Meanwhile the Cats were scratchy that season and did not play their best, yet still went close. They suffered unlucky losses to those two teams in the finals. Don't forget that Ablett went AWOL prior to the season when he announced his premature retirement. I reckon this would've been a huge distraction. He came back mid-season but never reached his best form, then he was suspended after the Qualifying Final for clocking Nathan Burke.

Fitzroy 1983- Were 11-3 after 14 rounds, but fell away slightly with losses in the run home to non finalists Sydney, Footscray and St Kilda. However, they still finished 2nd, and had pumped the minor premiers (North), during the season by 150 points. They were severely punished by a borderline umpiring decision against Hawthorn in the first final, and looked mentally destroyed when they came up against Essendon the next week.

The core of this side was pretty impressive - Wilson, Rendell, Roos, Pert, Osborne, McMahon, Conlan, Qunilan, Sidebottom make up a pretty strong unit. They should have at least made the GF.

That was the best Fitzroy team I ever saw. They were easily the best team for most of the homae and away season and were dead stiff to lose to Hawthorn in the finals. I rated them as equal with Hawthorn in 1983. Quinlan was red hot. They had the perfect blend of experienced players and young stars and were unlucky to go out in straight sets.

Footscray 1997 - There is no doubt in my mind had they been able to withstand the brilliance of Darren Jarman in the last 15 minutes of the PF, that they would have taken the flag.

The Dogs were robbed in 1997. They lost a number of players to injury and suspension on the eve of the finals. They should've beaten Adelaide in the Prelim. Unbelievable that the Crows got up in that game. So year, yet so far. They were the best team all season, even though the media gave them scant respect.

Grant played his best ever footy at CHF in 1997. For that season alone, he had to be rated as a champion.
Then you had Paul Hudson kicking 60 from a flank and All Australian
The rucks were Scott Wynd and Luke Darcy
Midfield? Where to start?
You had hard-nosed taggers like Liberatore, Romero and Dimattina. They murdered most teams.
Then you had the silk: Rohan Smith, Brad Johnson and Scott West.
Great support from Leon Cameron, Steven Powell, Brett Montgomery
Very handy small forwards like young Nathan Brown, Kolyniuk, Michael Martin
Their defense was very good, probably underrated: Croft, Southern, Kretiuk, Ellis...

More than anything, this is when Terry Wallace was at his peak as a coach - he was fresh, innovative, astute and ahead of the pack. He had the Dogs eating out of the palm of his hand in 1997, much like Blighty's Cats in 1989. They played as men on a mission, intimidated their opponents, but were also the most skillful team in the league. Their footskills and ball movement were astounding. It was a damn shame that they choked that Preliminary Final away.


Great teams whose stars have no premiership medals in their sock drawer

Geelong 1989-1995 (esp 1989)
Western Bulldogs 1997-1999 (esp 1997)
Fitzroy 1981-1986 (esp 1983)
Adelaide 2005-2006
St Kilda 2003-2005
Sydney 1986-1987
Collingwood 1977-1981 (good, not great)
Melbourne 1987-1991 (good, not great)
Collingwood 1970

Great teams whose stars won the flag in other seasons

Hawthorn 1987, 1984, 1975
West Coast 1991, 2005
North Melbourne 1998, 1994
Richmond 1982
Essendon 2001, 1999
Brisbane 1999, 2004
Port Adelaide 2001-2003
Carlton 1975-1976
Geelong 1964-1968
St Kilda 1971
Melbourne 1958
South Melbourne 1934-1936

South's "foreign legion" dominated the competition, but under-achieved with only the '33 flag.

 

[NoRumoursAllFact]

In 1998 the Crows played round 22 in Perth. Melbourne got them on the "trip back from Perth" week ... so talking about how significant a "6 day break" for Melbourne was, you have to look at what other sides faced ...

Apart from the one let-down in the first week of finals, the Crows played five consecutive travel games (I think an AFL record to this very day) to finish off 1998, all finals games against sides who had finished higher on the ladder, and lost only one match ... the only final that wasn't an elimination match ... and hence the only final they could afford to lose.

There is no way that Melbourne of 1998 could have played five consecutive road games and finished it with a flag ... nor could they have beaten North.

If you'd read the post I said we were streets ahead of the premiers and conceded that north had our measure.
The point wasnt about who your rd 22 opponent is (thats the luck of the draw) the finals system that year was flawed and it showed when you guys played 2nd ranked team in the prelim and we played 1st ranked team. We finished ahead of you and pumped you in a final - it was a farce.

 

[MinerBoy]

Ahh yeah, The better side in 2003 lost the Granny by 50

And the worse side came within 9 points in 02, ok I see how it works

How it works was that they played with spirit in 2002 and nearly pulled off a great upset. In 2003, they just stuffed it up after going into the game as many, many tipsters selection to win.

 

[MinerBoy]

I agree, but for a start, you lost by 105 points, nobody is a big enough moron to think the umpires can affect a game that much.

Also, don't forget the 2nd half and all the "square up" decisions you guys received, a terribly umpired game from start to finish.

The situation was well and truly rectified in their next final.

 

[cammo78]

Dogs in the '97 prelim had all the luck in the world in the first half ... the Crows couldn't take a trick. 0 goals 7 points in the first term ... Modra going down with a knee injury.

In the second half the Crows didn't play much better or the Bulldogs much worse so that the Crows made up five goals ... it was more a case that the Crows were slightly the better side all day but had zero luck in the first half and a far more normal run of the bounce, as it were, in the second half.

The Crows had more scoring shots than the Bulldogs that day, and only just won at the last gasp by a few points.

The Crows would have been dead unlucky to lose that match.

whatever mate.

 

[MinerBoy]

Geelong 2008.

 

[ok.crows]

whatever mate.

What did I say that was incorrect?

http://finalsiren.com/MatchDetails.asp?GameID=1802&Code=bf7c447f7121eba6614686e96826df04

The Crows kicked 0 goals 7 points in the first term.

The Crows won by just two points: 12.21 (93) to 13.13 (91)

That is 33 scoring shots to 26. Seven more shots to the Crows. 36% scoring accuracy versus 50% to the Bulldogs. At half time the scoring shots were almost the same yet the Bulldogs were five goals up (10.6 versus 4.11). The Crows couldn't buy a break in the first half.

The Crows total player ratings for the game was 1329 versus the Bulldogs 1227. As I said ... the Crows were better on the day yet somehow managed to only just win it.

(The AFL are nowadays too sensitive about frees for versus frees against statistics and those have been censored from the page quoted).

As I said ... the Crows would have been dead unlucky to have lost that match.

 

[Shane Clayton]

North Melbourne 98' was better than 99' in my opinion

Kudos to Adelaide though. They capitalised on our shitness on the biggest day of all.

 

[ok.crows]

The point wasnt about who your rd 22 opponent is (thats the luck of the draw)

Your point wasn't about that round 22 match ... mine was.

It wasn't just "luck of the draw" ... the Crows have had to play round 22 in Perth far more often than any other side (including Port). When is it someone else's turn? I think the Crows have had to do it something like five times ... most Melbourne-based clubs none at all in the same period.

Then there was the occasion in 2003 when the Crows played a "home" final against Melbourne at the MCG. That year also the Crows played round 22 in Perth, so that the final against Melbourne at the MCG (which should have been at AAMI) turned out to be the Crows third consecutive road game, and the final against Pies the following week was the Crows fourth consecutive road game. They didn't make it through in 2003 ... but they shouldn't have had to have played four consecutive road games either ...

 

[Eagles Gal]

That's highly debatable - at least moreso than years like '91, '98 and '99. In 2005 St Kilda were very good but got cruelled with Injuries. Adelaide were very good but lost Riccuito to suspension for the first week of the finals and subsequently lost to the Saints, forcing them to play a prelim in Perth. And then after all of that, Sydney won the flag fair and square in an even contest with the Eagles, when both teams were more or less full strength.

I believe that in 2005, the Eagles were the best performing side overall consistantly through the whole season. Were unlucky to lose the grand final by 4 points to Sydney, who were not as successful through the home and away season.

 

[The Casey Cat]

Best sides I've seen that did not win the GF:

Essendon 99 - Even now I still can't believe it. If not for the that stupid previous final 8 system and 'one final in Melbourne each week' rule Carlton would not have even been alive to stuff it.

North 98 - Comparable to the above. Adelaide trounced in the first week yet able to stay alive because of the hopeless old system.

Adelaide 05 and 06 - Both years stuffed by injuries at the absolute worst time of the year. Their forward line was already the weakest part and it was hit the worst. Were just unable to kick scores and narrowly lost prelims.

St Kilda 97 - Similar to North 98 in that they were the best team in the league and Adelaide took advantage of crap system allowing them to narrowly win home semi final against Geelong.

With Geelong 89-97 - It's hard to say what the best team was. I think the 95 team was better than people are saying. Yes Carlton were awesome but the Cats weren't far off at all. I think I remember Geelong were just about flag favorites late in the year despite winning 4 less games over the year (looking back at Carlton's year now I have no idea why but still proves Cats were very good). Only lost to the Blues at Princess Park by 3 points and no one else got anywhere near that close to them there.

The best chance was probably 92. Cats were major down hill skiers that year though. I knew late in the year when annihilated by Adelaide they weren't that great. Unlucky the year before when unable to capitalise on a stumbling West Coast with key injuries/suspensions in the finals.

 

[BLPC08]

The North Melbourne team of 1983 certainly come to mind in terms of dominating during the year and bombing out in the finals. Ross Glendenning and the Krakouer boys had fired all year, in fact they managed to smash the blues by a then record 111 points during the year (and that was a blues team coming of a flag in 1982). Yet somehow the team managed to leave their regular season form behind, getting done by the hawks in a scrappy wet-weather match, then suffering a shalacking at the hands of essendon to bomb out in straight sets.

Geelong from 1989-1995 were also extremely unlucky as we all know.

 

[RangaInTeal]

Port 2001-2003!

 

[Claude Balls]

I SAID: That's highly debatable - at least moreso than years like '91, '98 and '99. In 2005 St Kilda were very good but got cruelled with Injuries. Adelaide were very good but lost Riccuito to suspension for the first week of the finals and subsequently lost to the Saints, forcing them to play a prelim in Perth. And then after all of that, Sydney won the flag fair and square in an even contest with the Eagles, when both teams were more or less full strength.

YOU SAID: I believe that in 2005, the Eagles were the best performing side overall consistantly through the whole season. Were unlucky to lose the grand final by 4 points to Sydney, who were not as successful through the home and away season.

You've missed the point of the thread. In 2005, any of the four teams I mentioned above - including West Coast - could have won the flag and been a worthy winner. West Coast didn't even finish on top. Then in the GF, Sydney defeated West Coast in an even contest when both sides were basically full strength... In essence, it was NOT a year where the side that was clearly the best didn't win the flag... there was no side that was clearly the best.

Years like '99 had a side that was clearly superior (essendon in this case) that didn't win the flag... do you understand now?

 

[beyondthevalley ofthedogs]

The North Melbourne team of 1983 certainly come to mind in terms of dominating during the year and bombing out in the finals. Ross Glendenning and the Krakouer boys had fired all year, in fact they managed to smash the blues by a then record 111 points during the year (and that was a blues team coming of a flag in 1982). Yet somehow the team managed to leave their regular season form behind, getting done by the hawks in a scrappy wet-weather match, then suffering a shalacking at the hands of essendon to bomb out in straight sets.

Geelong from 1989-1995 were also extremely unlucky as we all know.

Fitzroy 83 was genuinely unlucky. Lost through a dodgy free kick to the Hawks in the QF, bundled out by a Bombers side well versed in the art of the knuckle - something Fitzroy, unfortunately, could never combat. If they had beaten the Hawks it would have been North in the second semi - a side they had comprehensively thrashed in the H&A and were bundled out easily in the finals.

At least a GF missed and a possible if not probable win. Great side, too. Quinlan, Rendell, Conlan at their peak, Garry Wilson still a major contributor and Roos, Pert and Osborne making their mark. Umpire James - so much to answer for.

 

[Thommo 42]

Not even close.

The 2003 Collingwood side was much better, but still not in the same league as say, Essendon in 1999.

Brisbane were a better side in 2004 than they were in 2003 (particularly towards the end of the year), whereas Port were probably a better side in 03 than they were in 04.

Neither are worthy of this discussion.

However that 03 side contained Woewodin, Lonie, Lokan, T Walker and J Cloke. When you have 5 pretenders like that all in the one side on GF day you're never going to compete, only Brisbane's injuries and celebrations prevented it from being a 25 goal pounding!

 

[Borry]

St Kilda 1997 (finished minor premiers, went into GF winning 9 on end).
Bulldogs 1998 (never went lower than second spot all year until PF).

The rest have already been mentioned countless times.

 

[NoRumoursAllFact]

Your point wasn't about that round 22 match ... mine was.

It wasn't just "luck of the draw" ... the Crows have had to play round 22 in Perth far more often than any other side (including Port). When is it someone else's turn? I think the Crows have had to do it something like five times ... most Melbourne-based clubs none at all in the same period.

Then there was the occasion in 2003 when the Crows played a "home" final against Melbourne at the MCG. That year also the Crows played round 22 in Perth, so that the final against Melbourne at the MCG (which should have been at AAMI) turned out to be the Crows third consecutive road game, and the final against Pies the following week was the Crows fourth consecutive road game. They didn't make it through in 2003 ... but they shouldn't have had to have played four consecutive road games either ...

\
Yeah thats fair enough.. i was actually going to make the point that Melbourne quite often have had to play either freo or WC in rd 22 at subiaco. So we've been dudded about that lately however, i think all the derbies should be played in rd 22 eg port-crows wc-freo, and maybe syd-bris @ alternate venues each year.

My overall point is that in that year, the form the dees were in, we should've at least played off and the crows weren't the best team at all. But the 98 flag is yours and nothing changes it. In fact its flags like these when your not expected to win that define a team. And they performed each time they needed to win

 

[budf23]

Hawthorn of 1987 & 1990

Both should've walked in the flag but failed due to injury

 

[Del Piero]

Eagles 2007.....End Thread.

 

[cammo78]

What did I say that was incorrect?

http://finalsiren.com/MatchDetails.asp?GameID=1802&Code=bf7c447f7121eba6614686e96826df04

The Crows kicked 0 goals 7 points in the first term.

The Crows won by just two points: 12.21 (93) to 13.13 (91)

That is 33 scoring shots to 26. Seven more shots to the Crows. 36% scoring accuracy versus 50% to the Bulldogs. At half time the scoring shots were almost the same yet the Bulldogs were five goals up (10.6 versus 4.11). The Crows couldn't buy a break in the first half.

The Crows total player ratings for the game was 1329 versus the Bulldogs 1227. As I said ... the Crows were better on the day yet somehow managed to only just win it.

(The AFL are nowadays too sensitive about frees for versus frees against statistics and those have been censored from the page quoted).

As I said ... the Crows would have been dead unlucky to have lost that match.

the one missing statistic is the goal that wasn't paid at the 20 minute mark of the final quarter which would have buried Adelaide once and for all. you know it, i know it and the entire Adelaide contingent behind the city end goals knew it...so i would suggest it's the bulldogs who WERE dead unlucky to have lost that match.

 

[ok.crows]

the one missing statistic is the goal that wasn't paid at the 20 minute mark of the final quarter which would have buried Adelaide once and for all. you know it, i know it and the entire Adelaide contingent behind the city end goals knew it...so i would suggest it's the bulldogs who WERE dead unlucky to have lost that match.

You missed the rubbish free paid to Wynd just before half time, to put the doggies five goals up? The poster to Ben Hart just before that, that would have brought the margin down to less than three goals at half time if Hart had kicked it (since Wynd wouldn't then have scored that goal).

So I would suggest, once again, with emphasis, that it was the Crows who would have been dead unlucky to have lost it.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Um has anyone mentioned The Collingwood Side of 2002

Lost the Grand Final by 9 Points

lol how about the 1966 Collingwood side, lost by a point.

 

[jacko57]

The North Melbourne team of 1983 certainly come to mind in terms of dominating during the year and bombing out in the finals. Ross Glendenning and the Krakouer boys had fired all year, in fact they managed to smash the blues by a then record 111 points during the year (and that was a blues team coming of a flag in 1982). Yet somehow the team managed to leave their regular season form behind, getting done by the hawks in a scrappy wet-weather match, then suffering a shalacking at the hands of essendon to bomb out in straight sets.

I still seethe over that year. North finished on top of the ladder, so should have played Hawthorn at the MCG. Sheedy put up a massive whinge about how if Essendon made it to the grand final, they wouldn't get to play any games at the G before then, so our game was switched to Waverley, just to satisfy Sheedy.

Waverley was a massive mudheap, which basically brought North back to Hawthorn's level & they beat us ; worse, the North players were still leg-weary the next week & got done by Essendon (who of course, had played at the G the previous week).

 

[jacko57]

Hawthorn of 1987 & 1990

Both should've walked in the flag but failed due to injury

who were the key players injured in those years?