Brisbane needs help

[Lion for Life]

You fail to understand that it's incorrect to lay the blame totally at the feet of homesickness.

Your club has been a basket case offield. You have sacked coaches, you have poor facilities and you have a poor offield culture, football admin and a dysfunctional board of directors.

As Kevin Costner said, 'Build it and they will come'. Throwing a few extra dollars at players won't solve the real issue at Brisbane, that being they are a poorly run club with a poor culture that has a board that has overseen poor decision after poor decision.

I don't disagree that the club has been poorly run the last few years, still don't change the fact of our current situation in which we require assistance.

Regarding retention, i have outlined my solution, it's simple, common to other sports, applies across the board and does not require an allowance.

 

[James44]

Explain Des Headland, a number 1 draft pick, walking out in the middle of the Premiership era then. They hardly had a poor culture then.

A lot of Brisbane supporters use the Des Headland example as an example of homesickness. They fail to mention Blake Caracella leaving a very strong Melbourne club in a premiership era leaving to go to Brisbane.

There are swings and roundabouts in life. Some players get homesick, some players like Luke Power and Tom Rockliff don't.

Brisbane have a poor offield culture. Fix that and the real issue will be addressed.

 

[TedDougChris]

Explain Des Headland, a number 1 draft pick, walking out in the middle of the Premiership era then. They hardly had a poor culture then.

Headland was a knob ?? Seriously, didn't want to do the work required and wasn't a success after he left either.

 

[whatboutbob]

In one year it is difficult to. We lost Ward, Harbrow and Lake within a short space of time, all better credentialed players at the time of their moves, but not in the same year. The compensation we received was also terrible, given the timing of the moves. But there are other difficulties facing other clubs. I don't think a retention allowance would have helped you one bit last year. I don't think it would have kept one of those players (and I actually think you've picked a few gems as consolation). But giving you a retention allowance makes it far harder for my club to compete - which isn't fair either. So a solution that helps you and doesn't disdvantage my club is also needed.

FWIW, I'm not against the academy system being retained. I don't think that should be removed.

As above, Ward and Harbrow obviously left in exceptional circumstances, and the club was compensated for those by the League. You can argue whether the compensation was sufficient or not, but they're not really relevant to this discussion. I agree with you though that the solution needs to be holistic - and not just necessarily a hand-out.

A lot of Brisbane supporters use the Des Headland example as an example of homesickness. They fail to mention Blake Caracella leaving a very strong Melbourne club in a premiership era leaving to go to Brisbane.

For two whole years before, you guessed it, he went home.

 

[James44]

For two whole years before, you guessed it, he went home.

Caracella was at the end of his career. He was offered a low contract only for 1 year at Brisbane and put himself in the PSD, where he could have gone to any club Australia wide.

 

[whatboutbob]

Caracella was at the end of his career. He was offered a low contract only for 1 year at Brisbane and put himself in the PSD, where he could have gone to any club Australia wide.

I can't see you, so are you saying that with a straight face?

 

[Zealbee]

A lot of Brisbane supporters use the Des Headland example as an example of homesickness. They fail to mention Blake Caracella leaving a very strong Melbourne club in a premiership era leaving to go to Brisbane.

There are swings and roundabouts in life. Some players get homesick, some players like Luke Power and Tom Rockliff don't.

Brisbane have a poor offield culture. Fix that and the real issue will be addressed.

Caracella was traded, he didn't want to leave?

 

[MF]

So do they lose the retention allowance when they aren't struggling on-field?

I haven't bothered thinking through the exact details of the implementation because basically it's never going to happen due to the AFL having to admit removing it was a mistake, but...

Ideally it should only apply to players in their first 4 or so years and only those under a certain wage bracket, and it should be paid directly by the AFL as a % and therefore not included under the cap. This would mean that when the club is struggling the extra money may potentially persuade a player to stay and when the club is doing well it wouldn't make much difference at all.

 

[James44]

I can't see you, so are you saying that with a straight face?

He left Brisbane because of salary cap issues. They couldn't offer him a contract that he wanted.

He was delisted and he went into the PSD.

It's a pretty black and white case.

He was 28 at the time.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Sport/Lions-delist-Caracellas/2004/11/12/1100227569476.html

 

[TedDougChris]

As above, Ward and Harbrow obviously left in exceptional circumstances, and the club was compensated for those by the League. You can argue whether the compensation was sufficient or not, but they're not really relevant to this discussion. I agree with you though that the solution needs to be holistic - and not just necessarily a hand-out.

For two whole years before, you guessed it, he went home.

The whole introduction of GCS and GWS was appallingly implemented and planned - and don't get me wrong - I don't want to see Brisbane down the bottom for the next decade. But what I do want is an actual long term plan put in place, that all clubs can agree to, rather than half-assed COLA here, Zone concessions here, 3rd party payments over there.

As I've said, I don't think the retention allowance would have helped last year. But that doesn't mean we should also ignore the problem and pretend it doesn't exist. What I'm seeing is an increasing trend in favour of player movement, and that will not help the poorer clubs or the currently weaker interstate clubs. My preferred solution at the moment (off about 6 seconds thinking) is for longer initial contracts for first two round draft picks. So they can't leave after just 2 years.

 

[cotter101]

Gold Coast and GWS joinng have hurt us, and other clubs.

Gold Coast had dibs on Queenslanders in Zac Smith, Rory Thompson, and Charlie Dixon. Who would all be in our best 22.

We're also currently the only club in a non traditional footy state that does not have some sort of allowance.

We've screwed ourselves up in many, many ways. But we do need some sort of help from the AFL.

 

[TedDougChris]

Gold Coast and GWS joinng have hurt us, and other clubs.

Gold Coast had dibs on Queenslanders in Zac Smith, Rory Thompson, and Charlie Dixon. Who would all be in our best 22.

We're also currently the only club in a non traditional footy state that does not have some sort of allowance.

We've screwed ourselves up in many, many ways. But we do need some sort of help from the AFL.

To be fair, clubs would have cried murder if you'd picked up all three of those players so soon after your premiership years. The entire way the AFL is structured and administered needs to be overhauled, so that all clubs can have a chance of success. But I agree, it's hard to wait years for a decent draft pick and then see all the talent you need get sent to a rival club on a platter.....

 

[whatboutbob]

He left Brisbane because of salary cap issues. They couldn't offer him a contract that he wanted.

He was delisted and he went into the PSD.

It's a pretty black and white case.

He was 28 at the time.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Sport/Lions-delist-Caracellas/2004/11/12/1100227569476.html

Oh, ok, you were being serious. Nice pun btw (whether intentional or not). You don't see how Eddie campaigned successfully for the location allowance to be stripped (because, yanno, we had less than 40% local players on our list) then poached the player that was squeezed out? He may've gotten Caracella but he didn't get Brown, despite promising him a fat Footy Show contract. That's yet another discrepancy between traditional footy states and the frontier clubs btw - third party payments!

Caracella was 27 btw.

 

[Roylion]

A lot of Brisbane supporters use the Des Headland example as an example of homesickness. They fail to mention Blake Caracella leaving a very strong Melbourne club in a premiership era leaving to go to Brisbane.

Via what was essentially a three way swap in the end. Headland to Fremantle, Adam McPhee, Damian Cupido and #15 to Essendon, Caracella to Brisbane.

Brisbane did not want Des Headland to leave and given that he had his best season to date and was a premiership player that same year, tried very hard to keep him.

There are swings and roundabouts in life. Some players get homesick, some players like Luke Power and Tom Rockliff don't.

And with 90% of their list from interstate, Brisbane has to deal with the 'homesick' factor more than any of the other clubs bar Sydney, GWS and Gold Coast. Adelaide and Port Adelaide have one of the lower proportions of home staters on their list, but even they have two thirds more South Australians on their list than Brisbane have Queenslanders. West Coast have 60% of their list from Western Australia.

Brisbane have a poor offield culture.

The term "off-field culture" is bandied around a great deal in explaining why players want to go home. What does it mean actually?

Fix that and the real issue will be addressed.

You mean....start winning? Bit more difficult if a rapidly developing list has a far greater chance of being poached by clubs in their home state, playing the 'go home' card.

 

[Happy_Neale]

There are swings and roundabouts in life. Some players get homesick, some players like Luke Power and Tom Rockliff don't.

Right and 5 players walked out last year, which is more than we have had come home to play for us in our short history. There is no swings and roundabouts at all, more like a revolving door.

 

[Lensen]

I haven't bothered thinking through the exact details of the implementation because basically it's never going to happen due to the AFL having to admit removing it was a mistake, but...

Ideally it should only apply to players in their first 4 or so years and only those under a certain wage bracket, and it should be paid directly by the AFL as a % and therefore not included under the cap. This would mean that when the club is struggling the extra money may potentially persuade a player to stay and when the club is doing well it wouldn't make much difference at all.

Fair enough.

I'm just not sure that Polec & Karnezis stay an extra 12 months for an extra 10% per year. Indeed, the "big one" Lions fans go back to - Headland - left after 4 years.

 

[James44]

Right and 5 players walked out last year, which is more than we have had come home to play for us in our short history. There is no swings and roundabouts at all, more like a revolving door.

You had 5 players walk out last year because you were a rabble offield.

You sacked a coach for no apparent reason and replaced him with a novice, when you gambled on Paul Roos being available.

You also replaced your Chairman & had a board upheaval.

Your entire club is/was dysfunctional. It had nothing to do with homesickness.

 

[MF]

Fair enough.

I'm just not sure that Polec & Karnezis stay an extra 12 months for an extra 10% per year. Indeed, the "big one" Lions fans go back to - Headland - left after 4 years.

Agreed. I'm sure there's an adequate solution in there somewhere that someone with more than 2 minutes to think on it could come up with.

 

[whatboutbob]

I haven't bothered thinking through the exact details of the implementation because basically it's never going to happen due to the AFL having to admit removing it was a mistake, but...

Ideally it should only apply to players in their first 4 or so years and only those under a certain wage bracket, and it should be paid directly by the AFL as a % and therefore not included under the cap. This would mean that when the club is struggling the extra money may potentially persuade a player to stay and when the club is doing well it wouldn't make much difference at all.

That's Lethal's proposed solution. As you've written, it is extremely unlikely to happen, not just because the AFL won't admit to a mistake, but also Eddie'll never sign off on it. Used in conjunction with some other levers like:
1) a 3 year initial contract
2) a requirement to enter the national draft before you can go in the PSD (providing a longer gauntlet for players to run to get to their specific club of choice) and
3) closing the Luke Ball front-ended contract loophole

...and it'd bring some balance to the system.

As it is, the Lions will be lucky to merely hold on to an academy that is unlikely to address the imbalance for decades to come as their one 'leg up'.

 

[Lensen]

That's Lethal's proposed solution. As you've written, it is extremely unlikely to happen, not just because the AFL won't admit to a mistake, but also Eddie'll never sign off on it. Used in conjunction with some other levers like:
1) a 3 year initial contract
2) a requirement to enter the national draft before you can go in the PSD (providing a longer gauntlet for players to run to get to their specific club of choice) and
3) closing the Luke Ball front-ended contract loophole.

Do you think that 10% of say $150k is going to keep someone in Brisbane that really doesn't want to be there?

I'm also not sure clubs will be behind a 3 year initial contract, certainly not for all draftees. Perhaps for first/second round picks but even then you have the odd Spaanderman situation where you know at year 2 he was no good.

Agree with points 2 & 3 in principle, something will need to be worked out though about players who get cut/leave between the ND and PSD. It's probably rare enough to be able to treat on an exception basis

 

[master bate]

Oh, ok, you were being serious. Nice pun btw (whether intentional or not). You don't see how Eddie campaigned successfully for the location allowance to be stripped (because, yanno, we had less than 40% local players on our list) then poached the player that was squeezed out? He may've gotten Caracella but he didn't get Brown, despite promising him a fat Footy Show contract. That's yet another discrepancy between traditional footy states and the frontier clubs btw - third party payments!

Caracella was 27 btw.

See I don't think that's any real excuse. Brisbane is one club for 2 mil people. Melbourne is 10 clubs for 4 million, of which players from Coll, Ess, Haw etc are much more valuable than WB, Melb, North etc. I know the footy culture and sporting culture is different in Brisbane. But if you were a company that had equal business in both Brisbane and Melbourne who would you rather use for advertising Jono Brown or Rockliff or Nathan Jones?

Obviously Browny was special but he's a bigger name in Melbourne than any Bulldogs, North or Demons player. In fact you can make a case Billy Slater and Cam Smith are bigger names with wider appeal than the stars of smaller Victorian teams. I can't help but believe the biggest names at the Lions can't obtain corporate support when there's only the Reds and Broncos for competition.

 

[master bate]

That's Lethal's proposed solution. As you've written, it is extremely unlikely to happen, not just because the AFL won't admit to a mistake, but also Eddie'll never sign off on it. Used in conjunction with some other levers like:
1) a 3 year initial contract
2) a requirement to enter the national draft before you can go in the PSD (providing a longer gauntlet for players to run to get to their specific club of choice) and
3) closing the Luke Ball front-ended contract loophole

...and it'd bring some balance to the system.

As it is, the Lions will be lucky to merely hold on to an academy that is unlikely to address the imbalance for decades to come as their one 'leg up'.

Don't know if points 2 and 3 would do much. Luke Ball had to happen because the Saints were unreasonable IMO. And looking at what other clubs gave up for Brisbane's players who left last year the offers seemed reasonable. No club really stood over Brisbane with the threat of the players leaving. Adelaide's lack of first round draft pick made life hard for the Polec trade, if they had one then there could've been more anger about Polec choosing a club. I think the reality was though that the trades were reasonable given the players were largely unproven. Where it's unfair isn't the trades but just the reality that there's nothing given in return for the development Brisbane has put in or for the big factor which was that they were all leaving at once.

More flexible rules with the ability to trade future picks could help in that situation. Firstly it would've allowed Brisbane to at least drag their haul of second round picks over a few years to spread out the picks and in turn make them more valuable at least in theory. Or to trade a couple of second rounders for a future first etc. Plus the SA and WA teams would've had more to offer so at least Brisbane could've had a fairer shot of driving up the price of Yeo or Polec.

 

[whatboutbob]

See I don't think that's any real excuse. Brisbane is one club for 2 mil people. Melbourne is 10 clubs for 4 million, of which players from Coll, Ess, Haw etc are much more valuable than WB, Melb, North etc. I know the footy culture and sporting culture is different in Brisbane. But if you were a company that had equal business in both Brisbane and Melbourne who would you rather use for advertising Jono Brown or Rockliff or Nathan Jones?

Obviously Browny was special but he's a bigger name in Melbourne than any Bulldogs, North or Demons player. In fact you can make a case Billy Slater and Cam Smith are bigger names with wider appeal than the stars of smaller Victorian teams. I can't help but believe the biggest names at the Lions can't obtain corporate support when there's only the Reds and Broncos for competition.

I'll let Lethal handle that one:

“People who live in the AFL heartland don’t understand what it’s like in NSW and Queensland. They think they do, but they don’t really.”

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...and-and-nsw-20140622-zshy8.html#ixzz35itAjJyh

Do you think that 10% of say $150k is going to keep someone in Brisbane that really doesn't want to be there?

I'm also not sure clubs will be behind a 3 year initial contract, certainly not for all draftees. Perhaps for first/second round picks but even then you have the odd Spaanderman situation where you know at year 2 he was no good.

Agree with points 2 & 3 in principle, something will need to be worked out though about players who get cut/leave between the ND and PSD. It's probably rare enough to be able to treat on an exception basis

All good points. I think a little bit of extra cash in conjunction with making it more difficult for young players to get to the specific clubs of their choosing will give pause to some players, but not all.

 

[cotter101]

You had 5 players walk out last year because you were a rabble offield.

You sacked a coach for no apparent reason and replaced him with a novice, when you gambled on Paul Roos being available.

You also replaced your Chairman & had a board upheaval.

Your entire club is/was dysfunctional. It had nothing to do with homesickness.

As much as I hate to admit it 4/5 of those players that left hated Voss as the coach. So as much I would have liked Voss to be kept on, we couldn't risk the same thing happening again.

Our Chairman was seriously deluded. Had no idea about anything. Not that the bloke who replaced him does either.

Speaking to a few people involved with clubs, homesickness certainly had something to do with it.

 

[James44]

As much as I hate to admit it 4/5 of those players that left hated Voss as the coach. So as much I would have liked Voss to be kept on, we couldn't risk the same thing happening again.

That comes down to poor offield culture and player development.

Karnezis in particular rotted in the NEAFL, at the expense of a player like Brent Moloney. Polec was dropped, promoted and dropped like a yo yo.

Billy Longer was told he had a poor work ethic by Voss. Why didn't his work ethic improve at Brisbane? Was it homesickness? Or was there poor player development by Voss and his coaches?