Brisbane or Hawthorn, the Better Three-peat?

[JoeHawk]

We did it without free agency and had to travel interstate to beat our opponents on grand final day.

Hodge isn't fit to lick Voss's boots.

Really? We lose buddy and suckling from free agency then gain Frawley. Want to think about that comment again?

I loved Voss as a player but to say hodge isn't fit to lick his boots?....oh please, you're embarrassing yourself.

 

[JoeHawk]

Fair enough to say Brisbane but there are some funny reasons:

"Hawks had free agency" - Umm, all clubs have free agency now and Hawthron lost thier best player to their main rival and about 6 other players to free agency. No club has been more DISADVANTAGED than Hawthorn. Brisbane, on the other hand, had a salary cap no other team enjoyed and got the best players from another team that was killed off to grow the game in the North.

"Brisbane beat better opponents" - Has anyone seen those Collingwood sides? Probably the worst GF sides in modern history. They only won 13 games in the 2002 season and never more than 15 games in their entire run. Their FF was Tristen Walker! CHF was Jason Cloke! They had Ben Kinnear, Matthew Lokan, Richard Cole, etc. North this year would have given them a touch up. Even Essendon of 01 are only rated on being amazing the year before. In 2001, they declined badly over the year and were very lucky to beat a shit Hawthorn (who finished 6th) in the prelim. To back this up, Essendon won just 12 games the following year.

"Hawthorn beat interstate sides at home" - True, but they were better opponents regardless and we beat them by 8-10 goals which is far more than any difference home ground would make. We played scintiating football in the Grand Finals and smashed more fancied opponents.

"The comp was diluted due to expansion" - Umm, it was diluted for Hawthorn too! Hawthorn had not won a final for a couple of years when expansion started and managed to build a list and improve when other teams could not. This is harder in an eighteen team comp with compromised drafts and no salary cap advantages. Just traded and recruited better than the rest.

Well said. This needs to be acknowledged especially the fallacy surrounding Hawthorns advantage gained by FA.

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

I have a feeling that Hawks fans aren't going to handle their decline well.

All Hawks fans? BigFooty Hawks fans? The ones you know? Pretty catch all comment, or are you just fishing for a reaction?

Personally, I'm ok with it (if it happens). Realistic enough to know you can't be at the top forever and I'm glad we made plenty of hay while the sun was shining.

 

[Seagrave_Holmes]

Last time they came from similar lofty heights they almost let their club merge.

This. And to think probably about two thirds of their current 'supporter' base were around 20 years ago when the club nearly folded. Who's to say the same fairweather bandwagoners wont flee the sinking ship in 2-3 years time when they bottom out?

 

[cats2016]

Brisbane by a mile. Playing a melbourne team every year where Hawks got teams who were scared of the MCG.

 

[hawks787]

This. And to think probably about two thirds of their current 'supporter' base were around 20 years ago when the club nearly folded. Who's to say the same fairweather bandwagoners wont flee the sinking ship in 2-3 years time when they bottom out?

Correct we did almost merge and worked our way back to financial security so hopefully it's never a prospect again.

 

[DieSwans]

Brisbane would smash this Hawthorn team

 

[Pessimistic]

Brisbane would smash this Hawthorn team

Actually, Clarksons first win in 2005 was against that brisbane team. Couldn't even smash that hawthorn team

 

[Supahodge]

You guys know your football!

...and at least we got into our 4th GF in a row, even if we lost that 4th one.

Hawks aren't going to do that tonight. Go Doggies.

We were gunning for our 5th GF in a row, we lost our 1st GF to swans in 2012 before our threepeat

 

[HR Roughnstuf]

Blah blah blah. Oh how it must hurt. You and all your fellow handbaggers. We still got these though . Whether it's better than Brisbane or not? We don't care.

View attachment 290739

Holy shit.

Im glad they didn't try to stack the 2008 cup on there as well. Poor Hodge looks like he is struggling trying to carry all those premiership cups.

 

[Gydafud]

Holy shit.

Im glad they didn't try to stack the 2008 cup on there as well. Poor Hodge looks like he is struggling trying to carry all those premiership cups.

All that experience from carrying jugs of beer?

 

[HR Roughnstuf]

All that experience from carrying jugs of beer?

Pay that

 

[Monkey King]

I know that on the surface this does make for a compelling argument, but again I'd argue that the introduction of earlier teams into an AFL talent pool that was lacking the numbers (in terms of raw quality) and precision of today's drafting system created a far more diluted talent pool through the post WC, Adelaide, and Port introductions.

I do agree with the Ablett hypothesis to a point, but that myyove also made space for Geelong to bring in a more even and deeper spread of talent (not to mention, they retained everyone they wanted to keep)

It was no different for Hawthorn though, with the departure of Franklin at the end of 2013. He was our franchise player, and we could not replace him immediately (and still haven't).

I wouldn't agree with clubs like WCE and Port and even the Crows, as they were drawing less from existing clubs and individual draft pools and more from their home state leagues than either GC or GWS. Port had a few SA players sit out in wait of their entry. Whereas GC and GWS are total ground up constructions, whose inaugural seasons came back-to-back; meaning an extended period of unprecedented talent dilution and weakening club lists. So similar, but not same in my book.

As for Ablett, list theory aside, his recruitment to GC did not strengthen Geelong in Hathorn's flag years. As you noted, same with Franklin leaving the Hawks. Difference being that only Ablett has relevance to a discussion on the impact of expansion clubs. But on this point, IMO the Hawks backing up after losing Franklin to a rival contender is super impressive and a much greater notch in their belt than there being an 18 team comp.

I don't think that waters down the achievements of the premiers during those years, any more than I think you can say that of the Hawks now, or the Lions previously.

That's just a personal valuation. I don't much care whether it waters down the achievement or not. I generally just value a flag as a flag myself, whether won in 1915 or 2015. I've only posted in response to the simpleton who inferred that winning a threepeat in an 18 team comp automatically made it superior. If being compelled to consider such valuations, then on that point, I strongly disagree.

 

[Pessimistic]

We were gunning for our 5th GF in a row, we lost our 1st GF to swans in 2012 before our threepeat

Dear Eddie, if the challenge system was in place in 2012, Hawks could have challenged the swans to defend it again

Who knows, we may have discovered Buddy had already turncoated to a swan and replaced him with someone who cared

 

[Kcrack]

Brisbane having 3 Brownlow medallists running around, ridiculous team.

 

[dean31]

Umm, yeah... that worked well for them:
Scott Bamford (24 BL games)
John Barker (8 BL games)
Brad Boyd (15 BL games)
Nick Carter (5 BL games)
Shane Clayton (5 BL games)
Simon Hawking (0 BL games)
Chris Johnson (205 BL games)
Jarrod Molloy (51 BL games)

Only 1 player from Fitzroy was still on their list when they had their dynasty. Next fiction argument???

By trading of unwanted players they got Mal Michael and Martin Pike. Later on they got J Brown through father son. Extended playing roster making it more competitive to get and hold a spot. No fiction there, I see plenty of benefits of the merger. They merged after finishing 3rd. Imagine 1 of they remaining 4 teams finishing this season in third getting to pick over the list of the bottom team, getting to trade unwanted players, keep who they wished, getting an extended playing roster and tell me that would nit be a benefit.

Plus the exstensjve draft concessions the Bears got. Without naming the half dozen premiership players obtained through draft concessions I will name just 2 of them. Voss and Akermanis. Fair to say those concessions helped an awful lot. Big AFL influenced * on the Lions era.

 

[PieLebo87]

Who's had the better 4peat.....ow.

In all seriousness though, I'd go for Hawthorn because they've managed 4 in 8 seasons. Also, the fact they came back from a finals loss to win last year's was a remarkable achievement. It's a tad hypocritical though that Collingwood losing in a final on the way to a 4peat makes theirs invalid, but when Hawthorn does it, its a great achievement for opposition supporters....

 

[skilts]

I love the passion with which BigFooty engages in useless discussions about irresolvable issues.

 

[daffo]

Brisbane for me as well.

 

[Dom PC]

By trading of unwanted players they got Mal Michael and Martin Pike. Later on they got J Brown through father son. Extended playing roster making it more competitive to get and hold a spot. No fiction there, I see plenty of benefits of the merger. They merged after finishing 3rd. Imagine 1 of they remaining 4 teams finishing this season in third getting to pick over the list of the bottom team, getting to trade unwanted players, keep who they wished, getting an extended playing roster and tell me that would nit be a benefit.

Plus the exstensjve draft concessions the Bears got. Without naming the half dozen premiership players obtained through draft concessions I will name just 2 of them. Voss and Akermanis. Fair to say those concessions helped an awful lot. Big AFL influenced * on the Lions era.

Trying to frame history right there boys and girls. Ill give it a go.

I suppose if draft concessions weren't created the Hawks wouldn't have certain players. I'm not going to name them all, but I will just name 2 of them. Luke Hodge and Jarryd Roughead. Fair to say, those concessions helped a lot.

Then you have the trading of unwanted players who didn't want to play in the state they were playing in, with players like Jack Gunston and Trent Croad coming to the club at heavily discounted trades.

Then there is the expansion teams coming in which funneled all the talent away from the clubs that needed them and produced two under 20s AFL teams running around, while crippling the other lowly teams.

You also have the club getting all these 3rd party payments which count outside the salary cap. Something which poorer teams will never have the ability to match.

Yep, those Hawks premierships sure do have an * mark on their recent era of dominance

Same can be said about Geelong and all their father-son selections. No team can have the sort of success Brisbane/Geelong/Hawthorn have had without some form of external help.

 

[Roylion]

By trading of unwanted players they got Mal Michael and Martin Pike.

Mal Michael was traded for Jarrod Molloy who later ended up playing in the 2002 Grand Final for Collingwood against Brisbane.
Martin Pike was drafted with Pick 33 in 2000 (which was gained by Brisbane trading Steven Lawrence (a Brisbane Bears player).

 

[Pessimistic]

wikihistory

 

[dean31]

Trying to frame history right there boys and girls. Ill give it a go.

I suppose if draft concessions weren't created the Hawks wouldn't have certain players. I'm not going to name them all, but I will just name 2 of them. Luke Hodge and Jarryd Roughead. Fair to say, those concessions helped a lot.

Then you have the trading of unwanted players who didn't want to play in the state they were playing in, with players like Jack Gunston and Trent Croad coming to the club at heavily discounted trades.

Then there is the expansion teams coming in which funneled all the talent away from the clubs that needed them and produced two under 20s AFL teams running around, while crippling the other lowly teams.

You also have the club getting all these 3rd party payments which count outside the salary cap. Something which poorer teams will never have the ability to match.

Yep, those Hawks premierships sure do have an * mark on their recent era of dominance

Same can be said about Geelong and all their father-son selections. No team can have the sort of success Brisbane/Geelong/Hawthorn have had without some form of external help.

Only took to the second paragraph before an epic fail on your part. Hodge was number 1 pick in the draft that Hawthorn obtained by trading McPharlin and Croad to Freo.

Regardless of priority pick, if they didn't exist the Hawks would still have used pick 2 on Roughhead as they did. Hawks finished 2nd last and were certainly entitled to pick 2.
Brions also had priority picks around the mid 90s that landed them some handy players so had the same benefit as Hawthorn to level out and end that point of argument.

Trading of players is available to all teams, Getting nearly half of a premiership team through zone drafting concessions and a merger was not available to other teams. Marque player bonus, inflated salary cap and extended playing rosters were not available to other teams.
All those leg ups and its like getting Usain Bolt to race against 15 competitors carrying a bag of cement on their shoulders.
Hawthorn won their 3 peat playing by the same rules as every other team in the traditional football states, far greater achievement that the AFL purchased Lions 3*peat.

 

[Dom PC]

Only took to the second paragraph before an epic fail on your part. Hodge was number 1 pick in the draft that Hawthorn obtained by trading McPharlin and Croad to Freo.

Regardless of priority pick, if they didn't exist the Hawks would still have used pick 2 on Roughhead as they did. Hawks finished 2nd last and were certainly entitled to pick 2.

Trading of players is available to all teams, Getting nearly half of a premiership team through zone drafting concessions and a merger was not available to other teams. Marque player bonus, inflated salary cap and extended playing rosters were not available to other teams.
All those leg ups and its like getting Usain Bolt to race against 15 competitors carrying a bag of cement on their shoulders.
Hawthorn won their 3 peat playing by the same rules ad every other team in the traditional football states, far greater achievment that the AFL purchased Lions 3*peat.

You're kidding yourself if you think clubs will have the exact same drafting tactic with one pick in the top 3, than if they had 2 inside the top 5. You're just guessing by suggesting otherwise.

Just like you'd be guessing if you think Freo would have been just as happy letting their priority pick go, if they didn't have another top 4 pick.

Again, your just making shit up.

 

[dean31]

You're kidding yourself if you think clubs will have the exact same drafting tactic with one pick in the top 3, than if they had 2 inside the top 5. You're just guessing by suggesting otherwise.

Just like you'd be guessing if you think Freo would have been just as happy letting their priority pick go, if they didn't have another top 4 pick.

Again, your just making shit up.

LOL, Hawks obviously rated Roughhead ahead of Franklin or they would not have risked it. Tactics can play a part but when you have pick 2 you're going to take the best player available. Hawks did tactic screw Richmond over with Franklin by pretending they were after Tambling I think it was.

Not making stuff up its undeniable a merger of teams is a huge advantage. Just like it is undeniable that Voss and Akermanis both draft concessions made the Lions a better team. I understand the sore anoos though, its hard for Lions fans to face the reality that without the exstensive draft concessions and merger they wouldn't have won a single premiership in that era.