Building a Premiership: The Hawthorn Model

[Spluff]

Richo is slightly ahead of Mooney on ability, but he has 1 year left MAX, Mooney has about 3. And given the way Geelong plays, I think they'd pick Mooney ahead of Richo. Hawkins is showing signs of fullfilling his talent, Riewoldt went backwards this year and needs to work on his kicking if he is to be anymore than a 3rd tall.

Richo is slightly ahead of Mooney? Slightly? Mooney is one of the worst tall forwards in the competition (he's got okay hands, and is hard working, but not much else), and the amount of years they have left in them is irrelevant when we are talking about the best 22 at the Cattery - they are playing their best players week in and week out because they are challenging for a premiership, no matter how old they are. Riewoldt had a better year than last year, when you consider this year he took on the No. 1 defender most weeks and had to deal with much, much worse delivery than last year. If Hawkins is showing signs, Riewoldt is lit up in neons at this point.

Nahas/Cousins vs Stokes/Varcoe? Nahas basically = 0...one decent (first) year does not a career make. Besides, do you really think a guy with his frame would make the Geelong 22? As for Cousins, where would you play him? He'd be way down the pecking order in the mids. A fully fit Geelong has Stokes and Varcoe on the fringe so comparing them to Cousins and Nahas isn't really doing Cousins and Nahas any favours anyway, with regards to them making geelongs 22

Cousins can easily play down in the forward line, he's played there before, and would do a better job than Stokes/Varcoe (stokes had an awful year, and Varcoe doesn't really bring much to the table but pressure). Yes, those two are on the outer down at the cattery, but one of them will always be in the team as they are their small forwards. And you can't say Nahas isn't worth anything because it was his first year, and then applaud Byrnes for his year when it was the first year he's really done anything.

Cotchin/Foley vs Corey/Kelly? Far out do you have a different pair of rose coloured glasses for every day of the year? Besides...comparing our 2nd and 3rd best midfielders respectively to Corey/Kelly, who are probably 5th/6th best at geelong...its kind of sad isn't it? Foley might sneak into Geelong, but not in Corey/Kelly's spot...possibly in byrnes' spot...but even then after his grand final performance, and his year in general, Byrnes really has impressed me. Wheareas Foley was ok, but injured most of the year.

Why would they play Foley in the forward line (which is where Byrnes generally played this year)? It's a bit hard to rebut this when you've got all the positions mixed up.

Harley is a better leader than Newman and is taller...can't compare. Ditto Hunt...different position. Newman would be up against enright, mackie and milburn. As a player, he's not even fit to polish enright's boots.

You can't compare? Harley spent most of the year playing off opposition smalls/mediums, as did Newman. Harley is taller, Newman is faster, smarter, a better kick, and infinitely more durable. Hunt played the medium forwards generally and took their kickouts, something Newman typically does also. Newman is better than both.

Tambling and Wojac? Different players once again. Comparing a rebounding defender in Wojac to a guy who is predominantly a midfielder...do you really think that Tambling would get into their midfield? A rotation of Ablett, Bartel, Corey, Ling, Kelly, Selwood and Chappy when he pushes through the midfield...the only person who would have a chance of cracking that midfield from the tigers is Deledio.

Tambling played primarily off the HBF, in much the same role as Wojcinski, except Tambling had to win his own ball, shut down opponents, and deal with pressure.

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

Richo is slightly ahead of Mooney? Slightly? Mooney is one of the worst tall forwards in the competition (he's got okay hands, and is hard working, but not much else), and the amount of years they have left in them is irrelevant when we are talking about the best 22 at the Cattery - they are playing their best players week in and week out because they are challenging for a premiership, no matter how old they are. Riewoldt had a better year than last year, when you consider this year he took on the No. 1 defender most weeks and had to deal with much, much worse delivery than last year. If Hawkins is showing signs, Riewoldt is lit up in neons at this point.

On current ability, as a forward, yes only slightly. Richo has not been a dominant forward for 2 seasons now, so once again to compare Richo to Mooney currently is stupid. Also, I think you are underrating Mooney. He plays his role week in week out, he doesn't star but he rarely lets his team down. He is also quite durable. Richo is a winger/utility nowadays...its been so long since hes played a similar role to Mooney you can hardly compare him. In fact, a fairer comparison would be Mooney->Riewoldt and Hawkins->Maybe Vickery. The fact we played a fairly dismall 3 pronged forwardline of Riewoldt, Nahas and Morton this year says there really is no fair comparison to Hawkins.

Cousins can easily play down in the forward line, he's played there before, and would do a better job than Stokes/Varcoe (stokes had an awful year, and Varcoe doesn't really bring much to the table but pressure). Yes, those two are on the outer down at the cattery, but one of them will always be in the team as they are their small forwards. And you can't say Nahas isn't worth anything because it was his first year, and then applaud Byrnes for his year when it was the first year he's really done anything.

When cousins plays in the forwardline, he doesn't play a similar role to stokes/varcoe. As you said, they both play as small crumbing forwards with pace. Cousins has a huge tank, but he does not have the pace to play as a crumber. He plays more of a medium sized forward, even though he is considerably shorter than most medium forwards. A fairer comparison would therefore be geelongs medium sized forwards: S.Johnson and Chapman. Two of the best players in the comp.

Why would they play Foley in the forward line (which is where Byrnes generally played this year)? It's a bit hard to rebut this when you've got all the positions mixed up.

Byrnes also plays on the wing. Foley at geelong would not crack a game in the centre square, he'd be behind about 6 players. He would probably be an outside mid playing a similar role to what Byrnes regularly has.

You can't compare? Harley spent most of the year playing off opposition smalls/mediums, as did Newman. Harley is taller, Newman is faster, smarter, a better kick, and infinitely more durable. Hunt played the medium forwards generally and took their kickouts, something Newman typically does also. Newman is better than both.

Newman rarely plays an all out defensive role like harley does. Harley is taller, a better defender, a better leader and a better reader of the play. Harley can play tall or small. Newman is faster, smarter, a better kick and more durable than Harley, but compared to three stars in Mackie, Enright and Milburn he is very average. Newman plays on mid sized forwards, but gets killed by smaller more agile forwards...and I've never seen him play on a key forward.

Tambling played primarily off the HBF, in much the same role as Wojcinski, except Tambling had to win his own ball, shut down opponents, and deal with pressure.

Wojcinski is in the geelong side as an explosive rebound defender with a booming kick. Tambling is fast but rarely do we see him burst free of packs. He still looks like he is ambling but he has improved his tank (so that he can amble for longer).

I'd like to see you take these comparisons to the geelong board and see what they'd say. Or for that matter a neutral board.

 

[Spluff]

When cousins plays in the forwardline, he doesn't play a similar role to stokes/varcoe. As you said, they both play as small crumbing forwards with pace. Cousins has a huge tank, but he does not have the pace to play as a crumber. He plays more of a medium sized forward, even though he is considerably shorter than most medium forwards. A fairer comparison would therefore be geelongs medium sized forwards: S.Johnson and Chapman. Two of the best players in the comp.

Stokes rarely plays as a crumbing forward, one of his major strengths is his marking for a small (and his bad leads/marking this year has been the main reason he hasn't performed too well. He constantly led into the path of the talls and created havoc for not only the opposition, but his own team).

Byrnes also plays on the wing. Foley at geelong would not crack a game in the centre square, he'd be behind about 6 players. He would probably be an outside mid playing a similar role to what Byrnes regularly has.

Probably true, though typically they try and keep Byrnes close to the 50 as a floating half forward as his field kicking is pretty unreliable. I put Foley in there in that his line breaking ability would be invaluable to Geelong who are quite slow (especially now Wojo has moved), which is why they were trying to get Lovett last year. As a player I'd say Corey is better than Foley, but in terms of value to Geelong I'd put Foley slightly above Corey.

Newman rarely plays an all out defensive role like harley does. Harley is taller, a better defender, a better leader and a better reader of the play. Harley can play tall or small. Newman is faster, smarter, a better kick and more durable than Harley, but compared to three stars in Mackie, Enright and Milburn he is very average. Newman plays on mid sized forwards, but gets killed by smaller more agile forwards...and I've never seen him play on a key forward.

Harley used to be able to do a servicable job on the KPF but those days are well behind him, and I wouldn't say he plays an all out defensive role (at least not anymore - hell, they even brought in Lonergan and Gillies as a replacement for their KPD before using him this year), over the last few years he typically played on the oppositions weakest forward or as a floating man in defence a la 2008, which Newman could do very well.

Wojcinski is in the geelong side as an explosive rebound defender with a booming kick. Tambling is fast but rarely do we see him burst free of packs. He still looks like he is ambling but he has improved his tank (so that he can amble for longer).

Wojcinski doesn't usually burst free of packs, as he's never really in a pack situation. His pace is usually used tearing down the wings and using his lateral agility to get around opposition players (something Tambling did quite a bit this year, though usually in the backline instead of down the wing) - and Wojo has slowed down a lot in the last few years, he's still fast, but nowhere near as fast as he once was.

 

[tigerdan]

**** the Hawthorn model. They fluked the ****er and now its "the model"? Like FFS, they were pinching themsleves, thinking is this for real, and then we get mugs here who suggest that they sat down and said who will be a part of our premisership window? That ****ing window wasnt suppose to happen when it did fools. They got there by default and caght the cats on a bad day for accuracy. If the cats were on target the game was over at big break...as for clarko he will be sacked before to long he wasnt under pressure before they won that flag, because no one expected it....the suck cant handle pressure...and when its on, he comes out and talks BS like we have witnessed.

Yes, Cogga, agree 100%.

History will judge the Hawks like they do the Pies of '90 and to a certain extent the Crows.

Teams that pulled it out of their ass and wont it. Good on them. In the washup, a flag is a flag.

But the Hawthorn 'model' is a fallacy. It might have won them one flag, but it wont win them another, and they have already mortgaged their future away in a vain attempt to make it back to the top. They are toast but don't know it yet.

Way better to look at the Geelong Model, which is built around good drafting, great disposal and hard running. Or even the West Coast (92/94) model which was built around strangling the opposition and adherence to the game plan (but gee it was boring). We don't have the experienced players to emulate the Bombers (both in 93 and 00) nor the key forward to emulate North.

Wallace tried to build a team full of runners and flankers but no true forwards. The reality is that we're probably going to end up in the short term with a team like the Bulldogs, through the nature of the players we have on our list. It might not be what we want to see but it's the direction Wallace has pushed us and it will take a while to right the ship. We simply cannot afford to blow the drafting this year, and we must find a key forward or we are going to get caught out just like the Bulldogs do.

 

[1980]

Connors and Farmer...lucky to be on AFL lists let alone in a premiership team.

Martin isn't even playing for us yet.

Nahas, as much as I like him, will probably be found out this year.

There are very few players on our list who I would back to make the geelong best 22. In fact, deledio is about the only player atm that would. Cotchin would find it difficult to crack the midfield at the cattery.

Perhaps Richo would still get a birth as a KPF there. Maybe Riewoldt...more because they are weak in terms of tall forwards than the fact that he would deserve to be there. Other than that, none of our boys would have a chance.

And who would you drop for deledio? Ablett, Selwood, Chapman or Bartells ???

 

[Tomnat Tigers]

I think stokes is one of the most overrated players in the competion if he wasnt in such a dominate team he would be lucky to get a game and as for connors he has skill and potiental just needs to have a big pre season and stay injury free for the entire season.

 

[coke_zero]

I think stokes is one of the most overrated players in the competion if he wasnt in such a dominate team he would be lucky to get a game

vould not agree more, his team is carrying him alot. but that doesnt mean he dont have talent, he would just drop off alot if he left Geelong. or he would not be as well known.

 

[CoggaRules]

Yes, Cogga, agree 100%.

History will judge the Hawks like they do the Pies of '90 and to a certain extent the Crows.

Teams that pulled it out of their ass and wont it. Good on them. In the washup, a flag is a flag.

But the Hawthorn 'model' is a fallacy. It might have won them one flag, but it wont win them another, and they have already mortgaged their future away in a vain attempt to make it back to the top. They are toast but don't know it yet.

Way better to look at the Geelong Model, which is built around good drafting, great disposal and hard running. Or even the West Coast (92/94) model which was built around strangling the opposition and adherence to the game plan (but gee it was boring). We don't have the experienced players to emulate the Bombers (both in 93 and 00) nor the key forward to emulate North.

Wallace tried to build a team full of runners and flankers but no true forwards. The reality is that we're probably going to end up in the short term with a team like the Bulldogs, through the nature of the players we have on our list. It might not be what we want to see but it's the direction Wallace has pushed us and it will take a while to right the ship. We simply cannot afford to blow the drafting this year, and we must find a key forward or we are going to get caught out just like the Bulldogs do.

Thats what i am talking about!!!! Hark back 10 years ago and you will see the cats team and who was part of it....its taken them that long to get to the point they are at atm. Save for a few outs and a couple of required ins, like Ottens & Moon, the framework was put in place back then, it developed over the stretch to where it is now....i.e. sustained dominance with a team that has by and large grown up and developed together as a unit. When they do that kind of shit, everyone knows everyone's moves and no one has to guess. FFS they were even calling for Bombas head around year 5 and now all they want to do is give him head.

 

[JimmyRecard]

? ----------- Thursty ------ Mcguane

Newman ----- Rance ------- Edwards

Tambling ---- Deledio -------- Collins

? -----------Riewoldt---------- Post

Morton -------- ? ------------ Nahas

Vickery ------- Foley ------- Cotchin

? ---- Moore ---- Martin ---- Jackson

* Note: havent included Richo, cousins and tuck because they wont be in our next premership window. By this logic though we could actually do ok next season believe it or not.

So our four needs:

1. Small Defender: Polo, king and raines have not worked lets hope farmer can. If not might need to recruit trade one.

2. Half forard flanker: Preferably a player who offers us forward pressure, lets say jake king with some forward sense and we have a player. This player can tag the rebounding defender aswelll. Nearly all good sides have one of these e.g rooke, osbourne, eddy etc. They may not be stars but the do the job.

3. Full forward/CHF: Depending on where we decide to play Riewoldt. I hope this is pick 19, e.g Griffiths and he can do the job!

4. Back up Ruckman: Graham and browne wont make it. I was praying we would get mumford but considering he himself was picked out of no where surly we can draft a late ruckman.


so hopefully 19, 35,44 and 51 are used on these posistions.

 

[coke_zero]

1. Small Defender: Polo, king and raines have not worked lets hope farmer can. If not might need to recruit trade one.

Polo has not failed playing in defence. he did a very good job. he only played there because no one else could. im happy if he is played there next year while getting released into the midfield at times.

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

Polo has not failed playing in defence. he did a very good job. he only played there because no one else could. im happy if he is played there next year while getting released into the midfield at times.

My concern with this type of statement is that fact we were bottom 4 and therefore, lost a lot of games. Meaning what is the definition of 'fail'. I guess you mean he held his man and the others around him failed. Personally I didn't see it that way. As someone posted, in the same league as Raines. Plays too wide of his man, gets caught when in close and turns it over too often, or flips it to someone stationary.

I would think most people when they think of a player and are they 'up to it' think in terms of top 4 sides and whether the player would get a game in a top 4 side. If you feel he wouldn't, then he would want to have time and shown enough that he is deemed to have potential of improvement, or the door it is (or should be if we want to be top 4)

 

[JimmyRecard]

My concern with this type of statement is that fact we were bottom 4 and therefore, lost a lot of games. Meaning what is the definition of 'fail'. I guess you mean he held his man and the others around him failed. Personally I didn't see it that way. As someone posted, in the same league as Raines. Plays too wide of his man, gets caught when in close and turns it over too often, or flips it to someone stationary.

I would think most people when they think of a player and are they 'up to it' think in terms of top 4 sides and whether the player would get a game in a top 4 side. If you feel he wouldn't, then he would want to have time and shown enough that he is deemed to have potential of improvement, or the door it is (or should be if we want to be top 4)

here here

we werent horrible last year because of Terry alone...

we are lacking some quality players, i believe it to be those 4 posistions especially.

Polo lacks the nessecary pace to be a midfielder, and thats what he really is, he's not a small defender. He doesnt bring the intensity other small defenders like say steven baker bring. thats what we need.

 

[Kyusss]

here here

we werent horrible last year because of Terry alone...

we are lacking some quality players, i believe it to be those 4 posistions especially.

Polo lacks the nessecary pace to be a midfielder, and thats what he really is, he's not a small defender. He doesnt bring the intensity other small defenders like say steven baker bring. thats what we need.

and his a dumb footballer
always gets caught with the footy or gives it too someone to get crushed
often runs with his back to goal while players are streaming in with the footy towards goals more worried about keeping his man than actually stopping a goal, his rnd 22 performance was one of the most gutless pathetic performances ive seen from a player ever he was disgraceful i cant believe jade kept him on the field it was pathetic

 

[Kapital city TIGER]

and his a dumb footballer
always gets caught with the footy or gives it too someone to get crushed
....

if its one or the the other its good pressure from opposition, I cant hardly recall our forwards EVER applying this pressure. Nahas was the only one that consistently ran em down and that was invariably in the middle of the ground after chasing all the way out from the forward 50, with no-one around to support him.

FLOR (For Love Of Richmond) Id like to see the hospital hand passes out of our game - make em watch Bartlet videos for a couple of hours so they can learn to paddle the thing along without getting caught with it.