Banter Who will be better in 2025, Carlton or Collingwood? Part 3

[carlton_99]

That's not even close to true. A team that is going incredibly well and then completely collapses for the final two months of the season is not discernibly better than a side that finished competitively, but was behind the other on %.

Carlton could not beat a single team that has not in the god awful bottom 3 division for all of July-August and then almost went a half in their unearned final without scoring. They couldn't beat their main rivals from 2 chances. They did get to double up against the bottom 3 teams more. Going by July and August, if there was just one more game against a non-bottom 3 side then they would have finished outside of finals. So it was a lucky participation medal, especially after losing their "mini elimination final" to St Kilda.

Declaring victory in this thread is a shameful new low for Blues supporters.

Being consistent with the metric all year regardless of where the teams are is not shameful. It was the ladder for me throughout. For Pies fans it was the ladder when they were 6 spots ahead and then suddenly not - that is what's shameful. Having a better season than Collingwood doesn't mean the season was a success for Carlton either btw.

Pies started poorly and improved, Blues started well and faded. But one team made finals which is the goal of any team during the H+A season - they are facts.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

So you just wanna go off vibes rather than having any sort of objective measure suddenly...?

Would love to be a on the wall at the Blues' Mad Monday

From 2nd on the ladder to 8th and then 60-0 down another summer of finger-pointing coming up

 

[carlton_99]

Would love to be a on the wall at the Blues' Mad Monday

From 2nd on the ladder to 8th and then 60-0 down another summer of finger-pointing coming up

Yep just keep ignoring the question - looking forward to another year of flip-flopping in 2025

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Yep just keep ignoring the question - looking forward to another year of flip-flopping in 2025

Next year it's back to business-as-usual, Pies top 4 and Blues bottom 4

 

[carlton_99]

Next year it's back to business-as-usual, Pies top 4 and Blues bottom 4

So we are basing who is better off the ladder or is it number of wins during a full moon or something?

 

[Corn Cobbers]

So we are basing who is better off the ladder or is it number of wins during a full moon or something?

Whoever wins the 2nd h2h isn't it?

 

[Monco Matt]

When sides are separated only by %, a 2-0 head to head record and 2 less games against the clear bottom 3 sides are factors that can absolutely veer the result to the "lower" side. It would be different if Carlton then put in a respectable finals effort. But the 60-0 final score (the rest of the game was basically a pre-season friendly) rubber stamped Carlton's 2-7 finish to the year, where only bottom 3 teams were beaten. That is a horrendous collapse and nobody came out of the season thinking Carlton were a better side than Collingwood in 2024. At best it was a draw. If you are being critical of the events described above, then it could be a loss for Carlton.

Case closed!! An excellent, factual and well presented argument. More facts for the Blueshake supporters to ignore. But the 'ladder this' and the 'ladder that' percentage only based arguement is all they can cite, just no deeper assessment there at all. The Cats are a far superior side to Port and Port finished higher on the ladder, nobody would argue that fact, same situation between the Pies and Shakes. I think the shallow thinking of the Carlton fan base permiates up to their coaching panel as well, forever confining them into perpetual mediocrity.

 

[Robertio]

Clearly, Collingwood had a better season, I've even iterated this several times in this thread, even before yesterday. The ladder means virtually nothing to me when I'm ranking teams. You also lost two more games than the Pies this year.

We won more games than them mate, it's really not to hard to work it out.

 

[carlton_99]

the Cats are a far superior side to Port and Port finished higher on the ladder,

Which is exactly why I have said finals should be taken into account if both teams make it

 

[Monco Matt]

Declaring victory in this thread is a shameful new low for Blues supporters.

Indeed Mr M. But they just don't want to acknowledge that we are only trying to help them understand. It's a thankless task the work we are all trying to do here.

 

[nahnah]

Out of curiosity Blosers, does the fact you lost your most recent grand final hurt or has the 1/4 century that has gone by eased it?

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Which is exactly why I have said finals should be taken into account if both teams make it

Yep and taking finals into account.. the Pies were better

 

[Robertio]

That's not even close to true. A team that is going incredibly well and then completely collapses for the final two months of the season is not discernibly better than a side that finished competitively, but ended up behind the other on % because they lost to the likely premier by a kick at their home ground.

Carlton could not beat a single team that has not in the god awful bottom 3 division for all of July-August and then almost went a half in their unearned final without scoring. They couldn't beat their main rivals from 2 chances. They did get to double up against the bottom 3 teams more. Going by July and August, if there was just one more game against a non-bottom 3 side then they would have finished outside of finals. So it was a lucky participation medal, especially after losing their "mini elimination final" to St Kilda.

Declaring victory in this thread is a shameful new low for Blues supporters.

We played this weekend and the Pies didn't, if the Pies could've beaten Essendon just once it would've been a different story, we won the thread and that's it and if you don't know how the ladder works ask Fadgey and you'll be no better off.

 

[carlton_99]

Yep and taking finals into account.. the Pies were better

Maybe if they made it they could have proved that

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Maybe if they made it they could have proved that

We were average for a long while but finished the year 4-1 with momentum into next year

What's Carlton's momentum like? Crazy Vossy has completely lost the plot

 

[carlton_99]

We were average for a long while but finished the year 4-1 with momentum into next year

What's Carlton's momentum like? Crazy Vossy has completely lost the plot

Guess we will have to see in 25'

 

[Monco Matt]

Maybe if they made it they could have proved that

Well, true enough, we didn't make it, can't argue that fact, well done! However, we did defeat Brisbane just a few weeks ago and also defeated them twice this season, as well as not too long ago in a reasonably important finals game, so I think we would have at the very least gone 60-1...

 

[Worm4]

That's not even close to true. A team that is going incredibly well and then completely collapses for the final two months of the season is not discernibly better than a side that finished competitively, but ended up behind the other on % because they lost to the likely premier by a kick at their home ground.

Carlton could not beat a single team that has not in the god awful bottom 3 division for all of July-August and then almost went a half in their unearned final without scoring. They couldn't beat their main rivals from 2 chances. They did get to double up against the bottom 3 teams more. Going by July and August, if there was just one more game against a non-bottom 3 side then they would have finished outside of finals. So it was a lucky participation medal, especially after losing their "mini elimination final" to St Kilda.

Declaring victory in this thread is a shameful new low for Blues supporters.

Can we declare victory over Geelong by 10 or so goals ?

 

[Worm4]

Next year it's back to business-as-usual, Pies top 4 and Blues bottom 4

So Pies are going to improve by that much- what are you basing this assumption on ?

 

[Corn Cobbers]

So Pies are going to improve by that much- what are you basing this assumption on ?

A longer, better pre season, the usual band of spud recruits, Daics and some natural improvement from the younger blokes to push the oldies

Powerhouse

 

[Monco Matt]

Just on the thread title change situation.

As 'serious' as we can all expect to be on BF....what is the point of having a discussion/banter thread that rages for 12 months for 1000 pages just for one unknown BF mod to make a final decision based on their own opinion? Is this a democracy or North Korea? Many, many great facts and arguments against the ladder percentage situation has been made by many, many supporters of not just the Collingwood Football Club but many, many other club supporters as well.

I motion for the thread title to revert back to its initial form as the jury of the BF community is very much still deliberating.

Thank you!

 

[beerbandit]

The old “ThReE fLaGs In 70 YeArS’ myth rears its ugly head again.

It’s 4 flags in 66 years, or 5 flags in 71 years.

1953, 1958, 1990, 2010, 2023. Carlton supporters need to learn to count properly.

Next year will be 0 in 30.

Now that’s concerning.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Guess we will have to see in 25'

One obvious improvement would be to have an older, wiser, respected head sitting next to Voss, someone who can tell him that starting TDK as the sub is a bad idea

Voss is good on the disciplined stuff and inspiring his players, not so good in the tactical realm

 

[carlton_99]

One obvious improvement would be to have an older, wiser, respected head sitting next to Voss, someone who can tell him that starting TDK as the sub is a bad idea

Voss is good on the disciplined stuff and inspiring his players, not so good in the tactical realm

Yes football department including the assistants needs a cleanup

 

[Tadpole]

Would love to be a on the wall at the Blues' Mad Monday

From 2nd on the ladder to 8th and then 60-0 down another summer of finger-pointing coming up

I wouldn't. I'd end up splattered to smitherneens.