Banter Who will be Better in 2025, Collingwood or Carlton? Part 4

[carlton_99]

Perhaps shouldn't bother posting in a who is better between Carlton or Collingwood then, which is obviously all about performance in comparison to one specific team.

Stick to ladder predictor threads where you can talk up how strong Carlton's 8th was

Again the AFL has set up the ladder to rank teams' home and away performances objectively. That's why who makes finals each season is based on the ladder and not H2H finishes as the ladder is representative of 23 games of football not just 1 or 2.

Everything else is just nonsense from biased supporters who don't have the ability to put their hatred aside when discussing teams they don't like.

 

[doppleganger]

Again the AFL has set up the ladder to rank teams' home and away performances objectively. That's why who makes finals each season is based on the ladder and not H2H finishes as the ladder is representative of 23 games of football not just 1 or 2.

Everything else is just nonsense from biased supporters who don't have the ability to put their hatred aside when discussing teams they don't like.

LoL.

If the thread was who will finish higher, you would be right.

But it aint (after Bagger fans moved the goal posts from H&A ladder in 2023).

Clearly when asking who was better between two teams - actual performance in games against each other is more relevant tham how many wins they got against bottom 2 teams.

In 2024, the Baggers lost both games against the Pies, as the Pies were better.

 

[carlton_99]

LoL.

If the thread was who will finish higher, you would be right.

But it aint (after Bagger fans moved the goal posts from H&A ladder in 2023).

Clearly when asking who was better between two teams - actual performance in games against each other is more relevant tham how many wins they got against bottom 2 teams.

In 2024, the Baggers lost both games against the Pies, as the Pies were better.

No nobody moved the goalposts - both teams made finals in 2023 and so why would we just go off H+A when we have finals to go off as well. If both teams made finals in 2024 I would have been basing my view on who progressed further - been consistent on this throughout as unlike Pies fans on here I don't switch my view based on where my team is.

And again you can keep stating it all you want - I just prefer to stick with the objective stuff that reflects all the games played in a season and not 1 or 2. Seems reasonable enough considering the AFL do the exact same.

 

[doppleganger]

And again you can keep stating it all you want - I just prefer to stick with the objective stuff that reflects all the games played in a season and not 1 or 2. Seems reasonable enough considering the AFL do the exact same.

Happy to keep stating that Pies beat Carlton both times in 2024, we were the better team.

As we were reigning premier, we didnt get fixtured 4 games against the battlers to give us an inflated H&A ladder finish.

 

[carlton_99]

Happy to keep stating that Pies beat Carlton both times in 2024, we were the better team.

As we were reigning premier, we didnt get fixtured 4 games against the battlers to give us an inflated H&A ladder finish.

You knew who Carlton were going to play in Nov of 2023 and you all still had Collingwood finishing ahead. Don't bring out lame one-sided stuff like that now to justify Collingwood having a poorer season. Carlton also played the eventual top 4 teams 7 times - the most in the league. Swings and roundabouts.

 

[Fadge]

Good to see Fudgey is still rolling out the same old lines 5 years later

And why wouldn't I be?

Five years ago I stated Carlton don't have the list balance to contend for premierships, and they still don't.

So as soon as Carlton give me a reason to 'change the lines I roll out', I'll start to change the lines I roll out.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

And why wouldn't I be?

Five years ago I stated Carlton don't have the list balance to contend for premierships, and they still don't.

So as soon as Carlton give me a reason to 'change the lines I roll out', I'll start to change the lines I roll out.

Yeah we know the drill... the Pies have the best list depth of anyone in the comp but finished 9th because magic leprechauns and fairy floss or something...

Get some better material Fudgey

 

[Fadge]

You knew who Carlton were going to play in Nov of 2023 and you all still had Collingwood finishing ahead. Don't bring out lame one-sided stuff like that now to justify Collingwood having a poorer season. Carlton also played the eventual top 4 teams 7 times - the most in the league. Swings and roundabouts.

Did we know Richmond and North were going to be so bad that they'd only win 5 games between them?

 

[Fadge]

Yeah we know the drill... the Pies have the best list depth of anyone in the comp but finished 9th because magic leprechauns and fairy floss or something...

Get some better material Fudgey

I don't recall saying the Pies have got the best list depth of anyone in the comp.

Just that it's miles better than Carlton's.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

I don't recall saying the Pies have got the best list depth of anyone in the comp.

Just that it's miles better than Carlton's.

Yet u finished 9th with less injuries to ur best 22 than we did...

That abacus is a thing of beauty

 

[Fadge]

Yet u finished 9th with less injuries to ur best 22 than we did...

That abacus is a thing of beauty

'Carlton's best 22' - comprised of 35 players.

 

[doppleganger]

You knew who Carlton were going to play in Nov of 2023 and you all still had Collingwood finishing ahead. Don't bring out lame one-sided stuff like that now to justify Collingwood having a poorer season. Carlton also played the eventual top 4 teams 7 times - the most in the league. Swings and roundabouts.

Fixture difficulty is revealed at the end of the season not at the start.

There were no stand-out top4 teams in 2024, as 5,6 and 7th all had better % than 2, 3 and 4. Playing two games v Geelong or Brisbane aint the same as two games v Essendon or North.

Final H&A positions are a result of the different fixtures and who you play more than who the better teams were.

Carlton's double up opponents combined for 63 wins, Collingwood's 70 wins.

It aint hard to get a minor % advantage when you have an easier fixture like Carlton did.

Put them head to head, and Carlton came up short in BOTH games, as the Pies have their measure.

2024 Collingwood were better than Carlton, just like they will be again in 2025.

 

[Fadge]

Carlton also played the eventual top 4 teams 7 times - the most in the league. Swings and roundabouts.

So GWS were a top 4 team, and Brisbane weren't?

Interesting....

 

[doppleganger]

Did we know Richmond and North were going to be so bad that they'd only win 5 games between them?

In Nov 23 the Hawks was viewed as an easy game.

Port were another team who benefitted from an easy fixture in 2024, of their six double ups only Carlton made finals (so Port's toughest dbl up was probably actually Freo!).

But according to Carlton logic, Port were the 2nd best team of 2024.

 

[Fadge]

But according to Carlton logic, Port were the 2nd best team of 2024.

Yes. In the same way GWS were a top 4 team in 2024, but Brisbane weren't....

But Carlton finished 3rd in 2023!

 

[Cyclops]

Yeah we know the drill... the Pies have the best list depth of anyone in the comp but finished 9th because magic leprechauns and fairy floss or something...

Get some better material Fudgey

We got worn out by playing in a massive Grand Final.

Your mob got worn out by losing a prelim, hence your worse performance 23 vs 24.

Even Brisbane fell down the ladder but by sheer skill they seized the flag.

Let's face it 2024 was a down year. A big part of that was the two Grand Finalists sliding.

So as I've said before thexreal answer to the question "who was better In 2024" the answer is neither of us, we both got worse.

 

[Arr0w]

Geez pie supporters are salty sitting in mexico, while we made the 8

Apparently it was the easy draw, even though that was released prior to them "analytically" stating we would finish 13th and or miss finals

Just keep backing themselves into that narrow lane

 

[carlton_99]

Fixture difficulty is revealed at the end of the season not at the start.

There were no stand-out top4 teams in 2024, as 5,6 and 7th all had better % than 2, 3 and 4. Playing two games v Geelong or Brisbane aint the same as two games v Essendon or North.

Final H&A positions are a result of the different fixtures and who you play more than who the better teams were.

Carlton's double up opponents combined for 63 wins, Collingwood's 70 wins.

It aint hard to get a minor % advantage when you have an easier fixture like Carlton did.

Put them head to head, and Carlton came up short in BOTH games, as the Pies have their measure.

2024 Collingwood were better than Carlton, just like they will be again in 2025.

You say there were "no standout teams" but 1st, 2nd and 3rd on the ladder all made it to a PF. 5th joined them whilst 4th (Giants) had significant leads in both finals and showed themselves to be a very good team again. So yes it was a more even season overall but those top teams were still as usual the better teams overall.

Let's make it fair and not consider the top-4 but the top-5 instead (Swans, Port, Cats, Giants and Lions) as they were clearly the best five teams in it and all showed it in finals. Carlton played 8 matches against those five teams (4 interstate) in the H+A season. Collingwood played 7 matches (3 interstate) against those five teams.

You can continue to talk about games against Richmond/North who Stevie Wonder could see were going to be pretty poor in 2024 and act as if your pre-season predictions of Collingwood finishing higher were thwarted by the fixture but it's simply not the case.

There are a million different factors that make the fixture uneven and Collingwood benefit from a great number of them. Don't pick on one and ignore all others to suit your narrative - that is simply confirmation bias. The facts are one team qualified for finals and the other didn't. Carlton finished higher on the ladder at the end of the H+A season AND were the better team.

In 2025, if you want to ask "who is better" it should always be who wins the premiership or gets closest to it which is dictated by finishing position in finals. An 8th placed side that makes it to a PF had a better season in my eyes than the 4th placed team that gets knocked out in straight sets.

 

[Fadge]

You say there were "no standout teams" but 1st, 2nd and 3rd on the ladder all made it to a PF. 5th joined them whilst 4th (Giants) had significant leads in both finals and showed themselves to be a very good team again. So yes it was a more even season overall but those top teams were still as usual the better teams overall.

Let's make it fair and not consider the top-4 but the top-5 instead (Swans, Port, Cats, Giants and Lions) as they were clearly the best five teams in it and all showed it in finals. Carlton played 8 matches against those five teams (4 interstate) in the H+A season. Collingwood played 7 matches (3 interstate) against those five teams.

You can continue to talk about games against Richmond/North who Stevie Wonder could see were going to be pretty poor in 2024 and act as if your pre-season predictions of Collingwood finishing higher were thwarted by the fixture but it's simply not the case.

There are a million different factors that make the fixture uneven and Collingwood benefit from a great number of them. Don't pick on one and ignore all others to suit your narrative - that is simply confirmation bias. The facts are one team qualified for finals and the other didn't. Carlton finished higher on the ladder at the end of the H+A season AND were the better team.

In 2025, if you want to ask "who is better" it should always be who wins the premiership or gets closest to it which is dictated by finishing position in finals. An 8th placed side that makes it to a PF had a better season in my eyes than the 4th placed team that gets knocked out in straight sets.

Just coincidence that you stopped at the top 5 and excluded Hawthorn?

How many games did you predict Richmond to win in 2024 at the start of the season?

 

[carlton_99]

Did we know Richmond and North were going to be so bad that they'd only win 5 games between them?

I understand you had Carlton finishing 16th after Round 1 but the vast majority of fans had those two teams close to the bottom (16th-18th). You maintained throughout the season that Collingwood would finish higher even after seeing the performances of those two teams who Carlton would play a second time much later in the season. And yet there was barely a mention of it UNTIL the end of the season

Surely if you thought this was such a significant factor you should have come out after a month or two when it became VERY clear what type of year the Tigers/Roos were going to have to say "Carlton will finish ahead because of that".

 

[Fadge]

Carlton finished higher on the ladder at the end of the H+A season AND were the better team.

Time you stopped the delusion.

 

[carlton_99]

Just coincidence that you stopped at the top 5 and excluded Hawthorn?

How many games did you predict Richmond to win in 2024 at the start of the season?

I explained why I picked those five teams - four of them made the PF and the Giants finished in the top-4 of in the H+A season AND had massive leads in both finals. They were clearly the best five sides in it over the season.

 

[Fadge]

I explained why I picked those five teams - four of them made the PF and the Giants finished in the top-4 of in the H+A season AND had massive leads in both finals. They were clearly the best five sides in it over the season.

Hawthorn are now second favourites for the 2025 flag based on how they performed in 2024 (but I must have just imagined that).

Hawthorn started favourites against Port, in Adelaide, in their semi-final.

Just hypothetically, how would your stats look if you included Hawthorn?

Because if you include Port Adelaide, despite their 'easy' draw, you have to include Hawthorn.

 

[carlton_99]

Hawthorn are now second favourites for the 2025 flag based on how they performed in 2024 (but I must have just imagined that).

Hawthorn started favourites against Port, in Adelaide, in their semi-final.

Just hypothetically, how would your stats look if you included Hawthorn?

Hawthorn finished the season incredibly well but again I look at all of the results. Swans/Power/Lions/Cats all progressed further in finals than them whilst the Giants got eliminated in the same spot but had a better H+A season which is my "tiebreaker".

Again I just wanted to include top 4 teams at the end of the H+A season because we are taking about the H+A fixture but included Brisbane as they were the only team not in that group that made the PF.

 

[doppleganger]

Hawthorn are now second favourites for the 2025 flag based on how they performed in 2024 (but I must have just imagined that).

Hawthorn started favourites against Port, in Adelaide, in their semi-final.

Just hypothetically, how would your stats look if you included Hawthorn?

Hawks were a Sicily missed shot from a PF, but for some reason the poor Bagger has them clearly a level below Port