Changes v Ade Rd 3

[Wizard]

Calm down.

The argument is simply that we have too many negating players in our team; Crowley is one of them. Of the rest, both McPhee and de Boer are performing at the required level, JVB has been about as poor as Crowley. That leaves one of Crowley or JVB who needs to go IMO.

The argument against Crowley is mostly that he hasn't laid a single tackle in 2 games, he's poor offensively around stoppages and his disposal is ordinary. Shutting a player out of the game and making it a 17 v 17 contest isn't enough anymore. You need to be able to hurt your opponent going the other way. Crowley isn't doing that at the moment.

Rather than having a crack at everyone, how about simply saying 'we need Crowley for such and such a reason' instead. If you think it should be JVB instead of Crowley who is dropped, make your case. If you don't think either should be dropped, again, make your case.



Why do we need his physical presence? Seriously?

At center bounces he generally stands in there with either Pavlich and/or Mundy along with either Sandilands or Bradley. Whilst around the ground there is a bunch of players who should be able to look after the smaller blokes. McPhee, de Boer are the first to come to mind but even smaller guys like Suban, Ballantyne, Palmer, Lower would be more than willing to help out.

Basically, there are enough other guys who can set blocks, shepherd defenders and generally just create space for the likes of Hill, Fyfe and Walters without carrying a guy along for that reason alone. We need some more players who are making a positive contribution to the side, not just having a break even effect with their opponent.

My issue is coming on here and reading all this ill-informed garbage, sure some have some very valid points and provide great reading but some its complete garbage.
He is an important part of our team IMO – he provides niggle and is an annoying prick that gets under the skin of his opponents.
Is he in good form at the moment? No, hes struggling but to say he is due to go is ridiculous. Hes very much in the Shaunny Mac mould for this club in my eyes, hes never going to be a star and win game after game off his own boot but he will do his role and stick to it. You always know you will get effort and commitment from Crowls and that’s what I love to see from our players.

His skills aren’t as bad as people make them out to be, hes a very good set shot for goal generally and his field kicking is much better then a lot of guys in our team. Just like DeBoer I think his kicking is unfairly criticised. His weakness skill wise is his goalkicking on the run, he seems to get under the ball and kick high rather then with penetration.
Lacks a bit of speed at times as well which to me means he needs to exercise his physical presence rather then rely on any athleticism etc.

His effort in the third term v Bris on Black almost kept us in the game, SB was dominating the game and Crowls slowed him right down. This is after he shut Adcock out in the first half of the match.

As far as defensive players in our side go, I think 3 is what we are probably looking at as they can all have a role.
Crowls goes with their best midfielder – his endurance is the best out of our guys, he also hurts them going forward. He is more dangerous offensively when taggign as well as he gets taken to the footy.
DeBoer goes with the running half back like he did majority of the end of 2010. If only his goal kicking was better he’d be amazing in this role.
JVB gets the high half forward type role and the small forward. God knows Duff can’t shut anyone down so we need someone like JVB down there.
McPhee isn’t playing a defensive role at the moment, not from what I have seen anyway.

 

[Clay Davis]

I love the comparisons to the best team in the comp by a distance.

"Collingwood play this style, so we should too". That is my face if our list was as good as the Pies coz then we will be on track to win 3 premierships in a row.

We have to negate teams coz otherwise players like Swan, Judd, Ablett, can destroy you. We have no such dominant midfielders so the best measure is to try and minimise the damage they cause. Saying that Hill still gets attention, coz he is identified as one of our most damaging players.

Crowley and McPhee are our blockers/ run in straight lines/ create a path for our mids in Mundy, Hill, Fyfe and others.

I agree Crowley needs to lay effective, hard hitting tackles.

Geelong play that style as well. Ling still hurts you the other way.

The argument is about having four negating players in the best 21 and what roles they should be performing. It is too many to have four players who simply negate small/mids. How many players do you have to stop?

Further to that, a tagger should not simply see stopping one player as job done. A defensive player should at least be tackling players around the ground as part of his role.

 

[Clay Davis]

God knows Duff can’t shut anyone down so we need someone like JVB down there.

To me, this is a bigger problem than JVB's lack of skills. Duffield needs to learn to defend.

 

[Wizard]

With the bench reduced by 1 we have seen Palmer subbed in and out in both games - one of our ball-winners - in favour of leaving taggers on the field.

That was just a bonehead move from the start using Rhys as a sub, your playing agaisnt one of the best mids and high possession sides in the comp and we sit our BEST ball winner on the bench for nearly three quarters.
I can see the thinking that we bring on a fresh runner when everyone is tired and let him burn, but Rhys doesn’t hurt you with disposal so its not an ideal role for him.
I think its best suited to someone with better foot skills that will punish you more when guys are getting weary. I hate to say it cos I love him but I think Suban would be very good at this role. Buuuuuut then we loose his productivity for half a game.

 

[Avid_Avenger]

That was just a bonehead move from the start using Rhys as a sub, your playing agaisnt one of the best mids and high possession sides in the comp and we sit our BEST ball winner on the bench for nearly three quarters.
I can see the thinking that we bring on a fresh runner when everyone is tired and let him burn, but Rhys doesn’t hurt you with disposal so its not an ideal role for him.
I think its best suited to someone with better foot skills that will punish you more when guys are getting weary. I hate to say it cos I love him but I think Suban would be very good at this role. Buuuuuut then we loose his productivity for half a game.

Suban is a good option with what you hope a sub will deliver but he often takes a while to work himself into the game. One of the things the coaches are possibly concerned about is injecting someone who barely touches the ball.

But again, having Palmer, Lower or Suban or any one of our ball-winners/prime runners as a sub makes it even more pressing to reduce our purely negating/tagging players to 3 or even 2 (this could even mean redefining roles i.e. De Boer to midfield).

Seems crazy to reduce output and not replace it, right? Also makes it easier for the opposition to target the ball-winners we have left.

 

[Freo2012]

I flagged on the other site that I thought Creepy looked a bit off and a little slow getting to the contests in the preseason and was howled down. I have always been a fan and think his inate nature is to tackle and have a physical presence. I fear that he is struggling to get to contests which is not a good sign.......The Pig has taken Creepy's role I fear

Is lack of speed to get to the contest the reason why Ryan Murphy averaged only 1 tackle per game or was he just soft

If that other site is the one I am thinking of it is not surprising. They have in their terms "preferred status" with Freo for free tickets etc etc

They don't understand the reasoning of value of criticism and believe blind following is the only "faithful, true supporter" way.

If an organisation or individuals cannot take criticism they shouldn't be in the job/role. It is from deciphering the legitimate criticism and learning from it that forward progression occurs.

No-one knows everything and often enough criticism about something, often quite "left-field" can open up new knowledge and understanding. Surrounding yourself with only "yes-men" means you are either a megalomaniac or unwilling to learn - reminds me of that other WA footy club.

 

[yakamoto]

Good to see the intense grief following last Saturday's loss has subsided. In place of "the we absolutely must drop this player and that player and replace them with a couple of blokes who are barely getting a touch in the WAFL" type statements, we are at last getting some arguement and analysis. Well done everyone.

 

[Sman-21]

Since they wont drop MJ an give him the kick up the ass needed.

Make him sub
Hes so versatile he has no position.
So he can replace anyone.
Will also give him a warning that hes not doing enough an if he doesnt impress he could be out.

Wont happen though for the exact same reason they wont drop him.
When hes good hes very handy, dont wanna risk not playing him coz will miss out on some of his skills that he sometimes shows.

Yakamoto if you have anything to do with MJ
we arent bagging him coz hes crap.
We are bagging him coz with the right attitude he could be a star.

He has all the tools to be Paddy Ryder, Adam Goodes, Brendon goddard like.
It pisses me off in that all his time at the club he hasnt got bigger in the upperbody, shown any consistancy etc.
The tools are there an he has shown that he can use them in big games.
That tells me its an attitude problem.
Friends, Family, coaches, fans etc need to do something to him to fix the attitude since he cant seem to do it himself.
He could be a great player.

As for Crowley gotta agree 1 tagger too many an he is the worst performing at the moment.
A tagger is sposed to be right on his opponent all day, how the **** can u not lay a tackle in 2 games?
Crowley when hes niggling is a very good tagger, havent seen it this year.
Also hurts opponents going forward.
His hands at ground level have always been poor rarely doesnt fumble.
Cant afford to carry him.

Either give him the #1 tagging job or dont play him.

 

[prattsta]

Since he won't be dropped, I reckon MJ should be made the third tall defender until Silvagni is able to come back in. If he plays well, then there isn't a spot for Silvagni, but the pressure will be on MJ to perform week in week out.

Crowley should be the sub this week.

If Ibbotson is fit I'd bring him into the side for JVB.

 

[theGav56]

If Ibbotson is fit I'd bring him into the side for JVB.

If Ibbotson is fit I would bring him in for MJ.

 

[dugrene]

If Ibbotson is fit I would bring him in for MJ.

Ibbo can be worse than MJ when it comes to brain fades, turn overs, poor application, apparent disinterest etc etc.

MJ at least has a few more stings to his bow.

 

[yakamoto]

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the communist part..... errr .. Michael Johnson's family. To the best of my recollection I have never met Michael Johnson or communicated with him in any way. He does not appear on my screen saver.
Dug, your comments re Ibbo are correct, and interesting regarding his perceived lack of interest at times. I recall that up until last year Mundy was frequently criticized for this. Even Pav at times has appeared disinterested. I don't really believe that this is the case. More likely explanations are fatigue and/or momentary lapses in concentration which lead to slow reaction to rapidly evolving situations.
The fluid running styles of Mundy, Ibbo and MJ also contributes to the false belief that these players lack urgency at times.

 

[estibador]

Crowley should be the sub this week.

Crowley has absolutely zero value as a sub imo.

You want your sub to be someone who can come on and have an instant creative impact. Crowley either has value as a starting tagger or no value at all.

MJ on the other hand I think could be a handy sub. In the Bunbury scratchie he came on after half time and was great. Perhaps his 'half-hearted style' suits being injected once the intensity has worn off a little?

 

[Super Gusto]

Hasn;t Sandilands done an Ankle??

 

[Clay Davis]

Hasn;t Sandilands done an Ankle??

He doesn't even have ankles.

 

[theGav56]

Ibbo can be worse than MJ when it comes to brain fades, turn overs, poor application, apparent disinterest etc etc.

MJ at least has a few more stings to his bow.

MJ is not showing form that warrants selection. If he does, then select him.

 

[salim malik]

If Ibbotson is fit I would bring him in for MJ.

Ibbo could be a goer,ran goal to goal with the rehab group for an hour before general training then joined the main group for their hitout
Looked ready to go

 

[prattsta]

If Ibbotson is fit I would bring him in for MJ.

MJ is not going to be dropped and Pavlich isn't going to play forward. I've decided to stop pretending this is going to happen and made my changes based on that.

Crowley has absolutely zero value as a sub imo.

You want your sub to be someone who can come on and have an instant creative impact. Crowley either has value as a starting tagger or no value at all.

Crowley has value as a sub IMO.

He can play/run forward and kick goals - particularly if he has a tired opponent. He can play in defense at a pinch. He could also rotate into the midfield for McPhee to play KP if one of our talls went down. He could also provide a lot of run given endurance is his strength.

He can actually be a damaging player (strictly from a scores on the board sense) when he has a bit of freedom. With a tired opposition he'd get that freedom. He kicked 5 goals against Port last year. In our game against Collingwood at Subiaco last year he was one of the guys who brought us back into the game (2nd quarter IIRC) because Malthouse didn't respect him.

Plus it takes one of our negative players out of the side, but still leaves Harvey with the option should someone be totally destroying us.

MJ on the other hand I think could be a handy sub. In the Bunbury scratchie he came on after half time and was great. Perhaps his 'half-hearted style' suits being injected once the intensity has worn off a little?

Again, I don't see Harvey doing anything with MJ other than leaving him to coast along until it 'clicks' for him.

MJ could be a good sub but he doesn't strike me as the 'come on giving 187% percent, dish out some high fives and chest bumps, start a fight, rally the troops, kick a goal, bring some super intensity' hype man you want in your sub.

 

[Clay Davis]

The key is in the name. Suban.

 

[prattsta]

The key is in the name. Suban.

I reckon Suban needs to be more involved not less. Having him spend half the game in the backline is bad enough, making him spend 3 qtrs of the game on the bench would be terrible.

I've never been his biggest fan - I reckon he makes some terrible decisions with the footy - but some of his work around stoppage situations is top notch. He's one of the few young guys on our list who actually makes the players around him better. He doesn't mind getting dirty to do the team stuff - much like de Boer - and that lets other guys have it a bit easier.

These guys Suban, Mayne, de Boer, Palmer, Lower and Walters should all be able to add a minimum of 10% to their time spent on the ball form last week allowing - you guessed it - Pavlich to spend an extra 30-40 minutes up forward. They get more development, Pavlich gets lets wear and tear and I stop pulling all my freaking hair out.

I know games are won and lost in the middle, but having a well functioning forwardline makes the midfielders job much easier. They have targets to kick to, they know where players will be leading, their opponents are focusing on busting their arses to get back in defense (giving them more time), there is less pressure on them to manufacture goals out of nothing, the list goes on and on and on.

 

[Avid_Avenger]

I know games are won and lost in the middle, but having a well functioning forwardline makes the midfielders job much easier. They have targets to kick to, they know where players will be leading, their opponents are focusing on busting their arses to get back in defense (giving them more time), there is less pressure on them to manufacture goals out of nothing, the list goes on and on and on.

^^^ Yep.

Increasing the fluency in our forward play by correcting the awful forward structure will also reduce fatigue as we won't be relying on scrambled goals to keep us in the game. More energy can then be applied to pressure and zone tactics.

AND increased scoring efficiency reduces tension, which in turn drives better decisions.

AND we actually allow other midfielders to develop and evolve into fulltime replacements for Pav.

The benefits will start to snowball over a season.

 

[malpaso]

I think one of the match-up problems we can cause Adelaide is that Rutten doesn't have a true opponent. He's more a classical fullback and we don't have a classical full-forward. Whoever plays on him should run up the ground all day. In fact, I'd have our entire fwd line playing that way, come up the ground and run into the forward line on possession..

Ibbo should come in for JVB. JVB is solid if not spectacular but he's one dimensional and Ibbo offers a lot more..

 

[go_the_dockers]

I think one of the match-up problems we can cause Adelaide is that Rutten doesn't have a true opponent. He's more a classical fullback and we don't have a classical full-forward. Whoever plays on him should run up the ground all day. In fact, I'd have our entire fwd line playing that way, come up the ground and run into the forward line on possession..

Ibbo should come in for JVB. JVB is solid if not spectacular but he's one dimensional and Ibbo offers a lot more..

Bradley is the obvious match up.

JVB is so underrated on these forum's. He must be picked until another true small defender who can take out a good small forward is in the side.

 

[Leslie_Chow]

In; Pitt

Out; Van Berlo

 

[yakka man]

Suprising they opted for Pitt instad of Chricton who played great for Peel last week. All though I do loving watching the newcomers play games.