Little Boris
Senior List
When are Saints fans going to change their signature's to:
"Anyone, Anywhere, Anytime (except GF day)"
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AFLW 2024 - Round 7 - Pride Round - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Chapman: We are better than the Saints
- Thread starter Joffaboy
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When are Saints fans going to change their signature's to:
"Anyone, Anywhere, Anytime (except GF day)"
PatrickBateman
Norm Smith Medallist
.....then we played you in the heritage round of '04 and won at Skilled. Cats made the prelim in '04, where did the Saints finish?
Difference between the clubs(built from early 00s):
Cats - Assisted by father-son(Ablett/Scarlett) other than that, all good recruiting and a well coached list. Not to mention a great club culture has produced one of the finest lists ever seen in the modern era.
Saints - product of the AFL assisting a club who needed assistance(as with Hawthorn) due to years of heartless, soulless performances. Countless top 10 draft picks including Reiwoldt and Kosi in the same draft?? WTF?? Saints' heart still questionable after Saturdays loss, and their narrow win against the Dogs was shaky.
The AFL may have got what it wanted with Hawthorn in '08(after being pathetic in the early 00s), but the Cats are more or less a self made list without more than 1 top 5 draft pick, winning 2 flags in 3 years. A credit to the club in a highly competitive arena, where the AFL does what it can to make it hard for teams winning multiple premierships as this is not financially advantages.
I hope the Saints win a flag with their current side, I really do. I like the supporters, coach and players(other than Milne, Schneider and King). I wish we'd lost to the Saints and not to Hawthorn.
Haha, lets not forget the reason he was angry (other than always being angry) was the media was tripping over themselves praising St Kilda as the best young list in the comp while ignoring ours. St Kilda won the first head to head, Geelong the 2nd and they finished 3rd & 4th overall and both made & lost their prelims.
Pretty even in the end for 2004. Since then things have changed, although one thing hasn't - Chappers is still very bald.
Pretty even in the end for 2004. Since then things have changed, although one thing hasn't - Chappers is still very bald.
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I still find it hard to believe that Geelong were just another middle-of-the-road team until 2007 and missed the finals altogether in 2006... I think they just needed the self-belief because they always had the ability (made a prelim in '04, were a Nick Davis snap away from another prelim in '05) but prior to their break-out year in '07 they seemed to be mentally fragile.
tragicforces
Team Captain
Clutch. Straws.
They weren't "middle of the road". 2006 was a car-crash of a season (similar in many ways to our 2009), but both were young, talented teams that rose together in 2004, but took 3-5 years to peak.
That's a pretty normal maturation rate, they just both had mini-peaks at the start of their progression.
Hawthorn 08 was similar to the Cats/Saints 04, though obviously with a much younger list. We are looking at 2011-2013 being our "peak" time, equivalent to where the Cats and Saints have been from 2007 until now.
Most teams have a PF experience before making a GF. Most experience a GF loss (or PF loss) before winning a premiership. Most teams contend for 3 years, 1 on the ascenscion, 1 at their peak, 1 on the way back down.
Most aren't good enough to ever win. Some are good enough to win once. Some are good enough to win twice. One was lucky enough to win 3 times.
Some win very early in their development (Hawks 08, Bombers 93), others late (Lions 03, Port 04, Swans 05).
Generally, teams contend "one more time" before age/salary cap catches up with them.
Geelong may well be in their final year of contention - or they may have "just one more". History (and 2010) will show whether this was a very good team that peaked at the right time - or a great team that really was "that good".
Saints may have reached their peak (their 08 ruined by injury), or they might just be entering their prime now. Either way, they should have at least one more season of genuine contention.
ishka29
Debutant
.....then we played you in the heritage round of '04 and won at Skilled. Cats made the prelim in '04, where did the Saints finish?
Difference between the clubs(built from early 00s):
Cats - Assisted by father-son(Ablett/Scarlett) other than that, all good recruiting and a well coached list. Not to mention a great club culture has produced one of the finest lists ever seen in the modern era.
Saints - product of the AFL assisting a club who needed assistance(as with Hawthorn) due to years of heartless, soulless performances. Countless top 10 draft picks including Reiwoldt and Kosi in the same draft?? WTF?? Saints' heart still questionable after Saturdays loss, and their narrow win against the Dogs was shaky.
The AFL may have got what it wanted with Hawthorn in '08(after being pathetic in the early 00s), but the Cats are more or less a self made list without more than 1 top 5 draft pick, winning 2 flags in 3 years. A credit to the club in a highly competitive arena, where the AFL does what it can to make it hard for teams winning multiple premierships as this is not financially advantages.
I hope the Saints win a flag with their current side, I really do. I like the supporters, coach and players(other than Milne, Schneider and King). I wish we'd lost to the Saints and not to Hawthorn.
I'm glad we have your support buddy!! Can you get the facts right first though?? Saints finished 3rd in '04' losing in a close final to the eventual premiers Port Adelaide with one kick away for stealing another Grand Final berth.
Do you want to really talk draft pick well he we go then;
1999 AFL National Draft
Priority1Josh FraserMurray U18CollingwoodPriority2Paul HaslebyEast FremantleFremantle13Aaron FioraPort Adelaide MagpiesRichmond14Matthew PavlichWoodville-West TorrensFremantle15Leigh BrownGippsland U18Fremantle16Damian CupidoEastern U18Brisbane Lions17Danny RoachTasmania U18Collingwood18Joel CoreyEast PerthGeelong19Caydn BeethamOakleigh U18St Kilda110Luke McPharlinEast FremantleHawthorn111Darren GlassPerthWest Coast Eagles112Paul KoulouriotisCalder U18Port Adelaide113Robert MurphyGippsland U18Western Bulldogs114Travis GasparSouth FremantleWest Coast Eagles115David SpriggsPrahran U18Geelong116David HaynesGeelong U18West Coast Eagles117Ezra BrayCalder U18Geelong218 (F/S)Rhyce ShawPreston U18Collingwood219Brad GreenTasmania U18Melbourne220Paul WheatleyPreston U18Melbourne221Scott StevensPerthSydney222Ezra PoyasPrahran U18Richmond223Daniel FosterPort AdelaideGeelong224Jason BlakePrahran U18St Kilda225Brett JohnsonSwan DistrictsHawthorn226 (F/S)Stephen DoyleSouth AdelaideSydney227Cain AcklandPort AdelaidePort Adelaide228Brent GuerraBendigo U18Port Adelaide229Adam HunterSwan DistrictsWest Coast Eagles230 (F/S)Jonathan BrownGeelong U18Brisbane Lions231Paul ChapmanCalder U18Geelong232Daniel GiansiracusaWestern U18Western Bulldogs233Tim ClarkeGeelong U18Hawthorn234Leon DavisPerthCollingwood335Patrick WigginsTasmania U18Western Bulldogs336Rhett BiglandsWoodville-West TorrensAdelaide337Mitch HahnNorthern EaglesWestern Bulldogs338Cameron LingGeelong U18Geelong339Scott HomewoodEastern U18Richmond340David HilleDandenong U18Essendon341Kane MunroBendigo U18West Coast Eagles342Michael J. ClarkEastern U18Melbourne343Lindsay GilbeeEastern U18Western Bulldogs344 (F/S)Shane MorrisonNorthern EaglesBrisbane Lions345Marcus PickettPort AdelaideEssendon346Adam ButlerMurray U18Fremantle347Corey EnrightPort AdelaideGeelong348Chance BatemanPerthHawthorn349Ben CunninghamClaremontFremantle
Ok there we have it 4/1 so far??
2000 AFL National Draft
Priority1Nick RiewoldtSouthport SharksSt Kilda12Justin KoschitzkeMurray BushrangersSt Kilda13Alan DidakPort Adelaide MagpiesCollingwood14Luke LivingstonBendigo PioneersCarlton15Andrew McDougallPerth Football ClubWest Coast16Dylan SmithSandringham DragonsKangaroos17Laurence AngwinDandenong StingraysAdelaide18Daniel MotlopNorth Adelaide RoostersKangaroos19Kayne PettiferMurray BushrangersRichmond110Jordan McMahonGlenelgWestern Bulldogs111Trent SpornNorth Adelaide RoostersCarlton112Shaun BurgoynePort Adelaide MagpiesPort Adelaide113Ashley McGrathSouth Fremantle Football ClubBrisbane Lions114Daniel HarrisBendigo BombersKangaroos115Simon WigginsTasmania Devils Football ClubCarlton116Scott ThompsonPort Adelaide MagpiesMelbourne117James DaviesXavier CollegeEssendon218Daniel KerrEast Fremantle Football ClubWest Coast Eagles2 (F/S)19Jason ClokeEastern U18Collingwood220Kane CornesGlenelg Football ClubPort Adelaide221Nick RiesSandringham U18Hawthorn222Richard HadleyEast Fremantle Football ClubBrisbane Lions223Drew PetrieNorth Ballarat U18Kangaroos224Luke AblettGippsland U18Sydney Swans225Mark CoughlanPerth Football ClubRichmond226Shane BirssGippsland U18Western Bulldogs227Ted RichardsSandringham U18Essendon2 (F/S)28Steven GreeneSandringham U18Hawthorn229Jamie CharmanNorthern EaglesBrisbane Lions230Saverio RoccaCollingwoodKangaroos231Blake CampbellMurray U18Kangaroos232Sam HuntGeelong U18Essendon333Martin PikeKangaroosBrisbane Lions334Ryan LonieDandenong U18Collingwood335Allen MurrayMurray U18Port Adelaide336Jeremy HummNorth Ballarat U18West Coast Eagles337Guy RichardsEastern U18Collingwood338Michael HandbyDandenong U18Adelaide Crows339Adam McPheeDandenong U18Fremantle340Chris HydeMurray U18Richmond341Andrew KrakouerSouth Fremantle Football ClubRichmond342Daniel PrattNorthern EaglesKangaroos343Mark WilliamsSouth Fremantle Football ClubHawthorn344Josh HuntBendigo U18Geelong345Trent CarrollClaremont Football ClubWest Coast Eagles346Sean O'KeefeMurray U18Carlton347Jordan BannisterCalder U18Essendon348Matthew SmithOakleigh U18Adelaide Crows449Shane WakelinSt. KildaCollingwood
ok 2/1 in that one.
2001 AFL National Draft
Priority1Luke HodgeGeelong FalconsHawthornPriority2Luke BallSandringham DragonsSt KildaPriority3Chris JuddSandringham DragonsWest Coast Eagles14Graham PolakEast Fremantle Football ClubFremantle15Xavier ClarkeSt Mary's Football ClubSt Kilda16Ashley SampiSouth Fremantle Football ClubWest Coast Eagles17David HaleBroadbeachKangaroos18Jimmy BartelGeelong FalconsGeelong19Luke MolanGeelong FalconsMelbourne110Sam PowerOakleigh ChargersWestern Bulldogs111Richard ColeEastern RangersCollingwood112Brent ReillyCalder CannonsAdelaide113Nick Dal SantoBendigo PioneersSt Kilda114Ashley WatsonBendigo PioneersKangaroos115Barry BrooksTasmania MarinersPort Adelaide116Rick LadsonBendigo PioneersHawthorn117James KellyCalder CannonsGeelong118Shane HarveyNorthern KnightsEssendon119Jason GramGippsland PowerBrisbane Lions220Daniel ElstoneBendigo PioneersHawthorn221Matt MaguireGeelong FalconsSt Kilda222Mark SeabyWest Perth Football ClubWest Coast223Charlie GardinerSandringham DragonsGeelong224Steve JohnsonMurray BushrangersGeelong225Steven ArmstrongPerth Football ClubMelbourne226Aaron RogersNSW/ACT RamsMelbourne227Tom DavidsonGeelong FalconsCollingwood228Mark PowellMurray BushrangersSydney229Lewis Roberts-ThomsonNSW/ACT RamsSydney230Rod CroweSandringham DragonsKangaroos231Joel ReynoldsGeelong FalconsEssendon232Campbell BrownOakleigh ChargersHawthorn233David RodanCalder CannonsRichmond234Simon O'KeefeMurray BushrangersEssendon235Jarrad WrightWoodville-West TorrensBrisbane Lions336Sam MitchellBox Hill HawksHawthorn337Leigh MontagnaNorthern KnightsSt Kilda338Ashley HansenOakleigh ChargersWest Coast Eagles339Justin DaviesMurray BushrangersCarlton340 (F/S)Gary Ablett, Jr.Geelong FalconsGeelong341Henry PlayfairNSW/ACT RamsGeelong342Kieran McGuinnessEastern RangersWestern Bulldogs343Mark McGoughMurray BushrangersCollingwood344Ben FinninNorthern KnightsAdelaide345Nathan ClarkeBrisbaneBrisbane Lions346 (F/S)Jarrad WaiteMurray BushrangersCarlton347Andrew WelshCalder CannonsEssendon348Simon CoxWestern BulldogsHawthorn349Josh HoulihanMurray BushrangersSt Kilda350Paul SalmonHawthornEssendon351Pass-Brisbane Lions452Andrew BrowneClaremontFremantle453Daniel HuntSouth FremantleSydney454Ben RobbinsKangaroosBrisbane Lions455Brad MillerMt GravattMelbourne456Paul MedhurstClaremontFremantle457Brent ColbertNorthern KnightsWestern Bulldogs458Dane SwanCalder CannonsCollingwood459Jacob SchubackGippsland PowerAdelaide460Adam SchneiderNSW/ACT RamsSydney461Michael MartynKangaroosKangaroos462Damon WhitePerthPort Adelaide463Adam HoulihanGeelongRichmond464Daniel McAlisterEssendonEssendon565Pass-Brisbane Lions566Pass-Fremantle567Pass-St Kilda668Chris HydeRichmondRichmond669Matthew McCarthyOld XavieriansGeelong670Pass-Melbourne671Brian HarrisWoodville-West TorrensWestern Bulldogs672Tristen WalkerClaremontCollingwood673Pass-Adelaide674Ricky MottSouth FremantleSydney675Sam CranageCarltonCarlton676Jared PoultonPort AdelaidePort Adelaide677Martin McGrathSouth FremantleRichmond678Pass-Essendon779Pass-St Kilda780Hugh FoottBendigo PioneersKangaroos781David JohnsonEssendon RookiesGeelong782Pass-Melbourne883Aaron JamesRichmondWestern Bulldogs
ok 7/5 in that one.
Even in all aspect and that's even with Grammy and Schneider drafted by two other clubs.
ishka29
Debutant
Funny that if Geelong had of won that game the would have been playing us, I wonder what the result might have been??
- Banned
- #60
5 star post.Bad luck yesterday, you smug w***er
So, if the team is so different now, as you say, then bumping this shit up now is pointless.
Make no mistake though, this is the greatest bump in the history of big footy.
Thread should've ended here.
forwardflanker
Cancelled
LOL at st kilda supporters clinging to the fact that they had the best list in the comp in the preseason 5 years ago, hahhahaha. So sad, just admit that Geelong are much better please.
You guys winge about being unlucky, however you got lucky with the weather conditions lol, but if it was dry Geelong would have won comfortably.
lol
this is for all saints fans who claim they should have won
5 year old thread... f**k me!! you need to get out more.... what a sad life you have!
Whats your point? All clubs get an even number of draft picks.
The original point I think was the number of high draft picks that the clubs have had. Its a lot easier to pick up a star in the 1st round than it is in the 4th.
So over the 5 years leading up to the '04 breakout year for both clubs:
1999
Cats: 8, 15, 17, 23, 31, 38, 47
Saints: 9, 24, 54, 68
2000
Cats: 44, 71, 79
Saints: 1 (Priority - Riewoldt), 2, 64, 75, 82
2001
Cats: 8, 17, 23, 24, 40 (F/S - Ablett), 69, 81
Saints: 2, 5, 13, 21, 37, 49
2002
Cats: 7, 23, 36 (F/S - Callan)
Saints: 1, 22, 46
2003
Cats: 7, 22, 38 (F/S - Blake), 42
Saints: 8, 55, 65
Thats 7 picks in the top 10 for the Saints, including 5 in the top 5 and two number 1 picks. In the same period the Cats had 4 picks in the top 10, the highest being 7.
The fact is that the Cats built the best side in the competition without a single top 6 pick. Never had any hope of drafting the likes of Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball or Goddard (or X Clarke
). Judd was out of our reach too, but the Saints certainly could have chosen him had they wanted to.What we did do was pick up very, very good players with average picks. Chapman, Enright, Ling, S Johnson, Milburn, Wojcinski, Kelly, Hunt, Stokes, even Matty Egan were all picked up outside the top 20 - some as late as 60 - with good drafting. Rooke and Byrnes came through the rookie list. Even Harry Taylor at 17 in 2007 and Joel Selwood at 7 in 2006 were superb value picks given their contributions over the last couple of years. Even non-Cats supporters must recognise the outstanding job Stephen Wells and his recruiting department have done over the last 10-15 years.
We are the perfect rebuttal to the myth that you need to bottom out to get to the top, having NEVER finished in the bottom four since the competition went to 16 teams.
Yes we also had three father-sons from 1999-2003, but neither Blake nor Callan would have gone any higher in the open draft, and even Gary Ablett back then was not considered a first rounder - he may have gone in the 15-25 range at best (if you don't believe me, look it up). Same with Scarlett in '97. The fact that both have turned out to be once-in-a-generation players makes it easy for people to distort the truth in hindsight. Probably only Hawkins in 2006 was a true steal, as he would have gone top 5 for sure, but he has hardly been the difference for us over the past three seasons.
What a bump.. one of the best.
PatrickBateman
Norm Smith Medallist
Whats your point? All clubs get an even number of draft picks.
The original point I think was the number of high draft picks that the clubs have had. Its a lot easier to pick up a star in the 1st round than it is in the 4th.
So over the 5 years leading up to the '04 breakout year for both clubs:
1999
Cats: 8, 15, 17, 23, 31, 38, 47
Saints: 9, 24, 54, 68
2000
Cats: 44, 71, 79
Saints: 1 (Priority - Riewoldt), 2, 64, 75, 82
2001
Cats: 8, 17, 23, 24, 40 (F/S - Ablett), 69, 81
Saints: 2, 5, 13, 21, 37, 49
2002
Cats: 7, 23, 36 (F/S - Callan)
Saints: 1, 22, 46
2003
Cats: 7, 22, 38 (F/S - Blake), 42
Saints: 8, 55, 65
Thats 7 picks in the top 10 for the Saints, including 5 in the top 5 and two number 1 picks. In the same period the Cats had 4 picks in the top 10, the highest being 7.
The fact is that the Cats built the best side in the competition without a single top 6 pick. Never had any hope of drafting the likes of Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball or Goddard (or X Clarke
What we did do was pick up very, very good players with average picks. Chapman, Enright, Ling, S Johnson, Milburn, Wojcinski, Kelly, Hunt, Stokes, even Matty Egan were all picked up outside the top 20 - some as late as 60 - with good drafting. Rooke and Byrnes came through the rookie list. Even Harry Taylor at 17 in 2007 and Joel Selwood at 7 in 2006 were superb value picks given their contributions over the last couple of years. Even non-Cats supporters must recognise the outstanding job Stephen Wells and his recruiting department have done over the last 10-15 years.
We are the perfect rebuttal to the myth that you need to bottom out to get to the top, having NEVER finished in the bottom four since the competition went to 16 teams.
Yes we also had three father-sons from 1999-2003, but neither Blake nor Callan would have gone any higher in the open draft, and even Gary Ablett back then was not considered a first rounder - he may have gone in the 15-25 range at best (if you don't believe me, look it up). Same with Scarlett in '97. The fact that both have turned out to be once-in-a-generation players makes it easy for people to distort the truth in hindsight. Probably only Hawkins in 2006 was a true steal, as he would have gone top 5 for sure, but he has hardly been the difference for us over the past three seasons.
Exactly! This was my point but obviously missed. Saints/Hawks supporters forget they were terrible enough to be given such a boost with high/priority picks.... like I said, Reiwoldt/Kosi(1 and 2 same draft) c'mon?!?!
'09 was as good as its gonna get for the Saints. They will not go through 2010+ with less injuries or more wins. They'll require more heart and soul to win one.
I agree with what you said up until the last bit - had hawkins been picked as he should have been (1st rounder), you would not have Selwood as you would have committed to Hawkins. So you were lucky with the father-son (not for the player you picked but the player you got as a result).
Under the current F/S system, yes, assuming of course that we would have given up our first round pick for Hawkins (which I'm sure we would have).
On the other hand, if there was no F/S rule at all for us to take "unfair advantage" of, Hawkins on the open market would have gone long before our first pick and we still would have taken Selwood.
I don't know whether we would still have won two flags in three years without Selwood. I suspect we would still have at least one, and probably both. But who we drafted with that pick is beside the point - the important fact is that you could make a case that all our F/S picks, except for Hawkins, may well have been available to us in an open draft anyway. So for all the talk about our F/S advantages, our overall net gain could be just one extra first round pick (#7) in 2006. Is that more valuable than the two extra top 5 picks that the Saints got in 2000/2001 from a priority pick system that has now been scrapped because it was too generous? Irrespective of how well they used those picks, they were worth their weight in gold (especially 2001, clearly the greatest draft year of all time).
HAPPYCHAPPY
Debutant
The wise bald man has spoken
Using one match as a sample size is just silly.
Both made prelims in 2004, he certainly wasn't wrong.
And considering 5 years on that most of the players in the two sides are the same, he's well and truely been proven right.
Again, well done on using one match as a sample size.
Like the quote above, both clubs have had the same core group of players over those 5 years, so it's safe to say Chapman has been proven right.
