Chris Judd

[Forward Press]

I didn't hear any WCE supporters complaining when Tyson Stenglein nominated their club. Players do the same nearly every year and have done so for decades. Why now are you all suggesting the best player in the land can't have chosen his club or exercised self-determination over his own future? He did do WCE as favour and insisted good compensation for his old club (I doubt WCE would have got better than JK and picks 3 & 20) but you seem to want an ounce of blood to go with it; you want for Judd to do what no professional person wants in life - to let the roll of the dice decide our fate. Makes me wonder how you reacted to Ablett's decision to essentially stiff your club.

Well, for the 'best player in the land', pick #1 was off the table very early. If I remember correctly as well, with Stenglein and most returning WA players (Headland, Chick etc etc), they simply nominate WA rather than the Eagles in particular, and let the clubs work it out.

He did of course talk with Carlton and WCE officials to try and get the best deal for us, but I'm not going to pretend that he was in the backroom saying that if we weren't given pick #3 and Kennedy that he would stay at the Eagles. He was going to move irrespective of what was worked out. Don't kid yourself otherwise.

 

[Monkey King]

Well, for the 'best player in the land', pick #1 was off the table very early. If I remember correctly as well, with Stenglein and most returning WA players (Headland, Chick etc etc), they simply nominate WA rather than the Eagles in particular, and let the clubs work it out.

Yeah nah. Don't think you remember correctly at all. Stenglein and Chick both nominated WCE. Like I said, players do it nearly every year and have done so for decades; many don't even give a shit what deal their old club gets. Judd deserves some credit for this, but he'll never see it from you blokes, despite you actually being happy with what you got.

And yes, pick one was off the table and you weren't gonna go getting from anyone else either. I think Freo are the only club to have traded away pick one since the draft got serious. What you got was a very fair trade, to the point that some may even claim you won that trade. And you're still whinging? FMD!

He did of course talk with Carlton and WCE officials to try and get the best deal for us, but I'm not going to pretend that he was in the backroom saying that if we weren't given pick #3 and Kennedy that he would stay at the Eagles. He was going to move irrespective of what was worked out. Don't kid yourself otherwise.

So the story goes, Collingwood not being able to detail the type of trade that would be sought knocked them out of the race for his signature; so clubs were definitely at risk of not securing him without offering up something reasonable - don't kid yourself otherwise. Judd was looking out for himself and looking out for his former club. I've got nothing more to so say on the matter other than he deserves some recognition for having done so; lack of such reflects more on those judging Judd than on Judd himself.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

I dont think any Eagles fans should be complaining about the go-home factor. Both the SA and WA teams have a huge advantage over the VIC teams given if any young talent does want to go home they have a 50-50 chance of snaring them. For Victorian teams they are battling against 9 other teams to be the likely suitor.

 

[Forward Press]

I did recognise Judd trying to at least secure a better deal for West Coast.

However, what I am arguing is that he was going to move even if Carlton offered up nothing. What Tex was arguing is that if Judd simply nominated to go back home to Victoria, each club would attempt to out-do each other (competition and all that) to secure his services. Do you dispute both of those arguments?

 

[Monkey King]

However, what I am arguing is that he was going to move even if Carlton offered up nothing.

Not sure what you're trying to say here tbh. If Carlton offered nothing, then he wasn't going to Carlton.

What Tex was arguing is that if Judd simply nominated to go back home to Victoria, each club would attempt to out-do each other (competition and all that) to secure his services. Do you dispute both of those arguments?

Yes. I dispute them not for whether they're factual or not, but for failing to make sense when applied to reality and for contradicting the many examples of players in a similar position. All you're saying - and quite unreasonably IMO - is that as supporters, you wanted Judd to throw himself and his playing future on the open market in the hope of squeezing out a little more from the trade. To me that's neither fair nor realistic and quite at odds with the more balanced approach Judd took in exerting self-determination and delivering a great trade.

 

[Tex_21]

I didn't hear any WCE supporters complaining when Tyson Stenglein nominated their club. Players do the same nearly every year and have done so for decades. Why now are you all suggesting the best player in the land can't have chosen his club or exercised self-determination over his own future? He did do WCE as favour and insisted good compensation for his old club (I doubt WCE would have got better than JK and picks 3 & 20) but you seem to want an ounce of blood to go with it; you want for Judd to do what no professional person wants in life - to let the roll of the dice decide our fate.

Didn't say they didn't - doesn't make it right. Buckley being another prominent example. WC may not have got any better compo (as I alluded to), but that doesn't mean a more competitive marketplace wouldn't have been a better scenario for them to have at the time - a player declaring a wanted destination in effect creates a monopoly.

Makes me wonder how you reacted to Ablett's decision to essentially stiff your club.

I said for months before he went I'd go too - 100 times out of 100. Double the money, same job. Easy decision IMO.

 

[ADF13]

It's a real shame to see the recent decline of Juddy. I still root for him, as he's a champion and without him i doubt we would have won the 06 premiership. He just seems to have lost his explosivness, and sadly i dont think we'll ever get to see it again on a consistent basis. As for the arguments surrounding his departure, i think its perfectly understandable for a player to nominate the club he desires to play for, and in this particular circumstance i think WC were adequatley compensated

 

[FGMPR]

Eh? Who offered you better than what you got from Carlton? Piss it all out buddy, don't just dribble. Judd insisted WCE got more than adequate compensation and they did. How was that not doing you any favours?

How could any other club offer the Eagles anything else when Judd had us by the balls? His reasoning was that he wanted to go home to Melbourne. Fair enough... but then to nominate one club? That is removing a large amount of our bargaining power. What Judd saw as "adequate compensation" is still possibly a lot less than what we could have attained had he not screwed us like he did.

 

[Monkey King]

Didn't say they didn't - doesn't make it right.

I said for months before he went I'd go too - 100 times out of 100. Double the money, same job. Easy decision IMO.

So you don't think it's right, but you'd do worse yourself

 

[Monkey King]

How could any other club offer the Eagles anything else when Judd had us by the balls? His reasoning was that he wanted to go home to Melbourne. Fair enough... but then to nominate one club? That is removing a large amount of our bargaining power. What Judd saw as "adequate compensation" is still possibly a lot less than what we could have attained had he not screwed us like he did.

Grow up! The guy had every right to chose his club. He earned the right. But as I said, I get that you wanted him to throw himself on the mercy of the open market just so your club could maybe, possibly, squeeze just a little more from a trade. To me that's a breathtakingly self-absorbed attitude that almost regards Judd as cattle or your property, rather than a professional person making a career decision for himself. He looked after your club alright, just not in the stupid, unrealistic way you wanted him to.

 

[summers12]

I think Judd is in a rutt. most players go through a form slump at some stage. He is only in his late 20's will be around for along time yet.

 

[jonbe54]

I think Judd is in a rutt. most players go through a form slump at some stage. He is only in his late 20's will be around for along time yet.

Errrm Judd fan board please.

 

[The Magenius]

I firmly believe Judd would have been a potential legend of the game had he stayed at west coast, he compromised that by going to carlton with the very shallow list they had, yes a lot of young talent but not much else.
He picked money and what he had already achieved over footballing greatness and to be fair I probably would have done the same, all except the timing, he was the skipper of a team in crisis and walking out on them when they needed positive leadership was really quite poor form.

 

[summers12]

Errrm Judd fan board please.

sorry is this a thread with nothing but bitter fans that judd chose Carlton. sorry I will go away.

 

[FGMPR]

Grow up! The guy had every right to chose his club. He earned the right. But as I said, I get that you wanted him to throw himself on the mercy of the open market just so your club could maybe, possibly, squeeze just a little more from a trade. To me that's a breathtakingly self-absorbed attitude that almost regards Judd as cattle or your property, rather than a professional person making a career decision for himself. He looked after your club alright, just not in the stupid way you wanted him to.

All we wanted him to do was the same thing as every other ex-Eagle player who went home to Melbourne had the courtesy to do. Sure, he's a professional and he can and did do what he likes, but footy isn't simply a business for those who follow it, and the players, coaches etc. who make strictly business decisions for themselves in a business that relies on the passion of supporters to run (an element that doesn't exist in a 'normal' professional career) shouldn't be surprised when that passion leads to different expectations in their decision making.

The fact that he left us at the lowest point in our clubs history, when we needed our captain to stand up the most plays into this. So does the fact that he shopped himself around for the largest 3rd party deal (involving a scumbag crook, no less) before nominating a single club and severely limiting our bargaining position. The Eagles may have ended up with a decent deal, but that doesn't change the principle of the matter. What you call professionalism, we are calling selfishness. Maybe we are being too harsh, but you (and Judd) are treating football strictly like a profession and not taking the passion that goes hand-in-hand with the tribal nature of following a sporting club into account, and I believe that is a mistake.

 

[Monkey King]

He picked money ...

Oh dear

Errrm Judd fan board please.

Errrm why? This isn't the Judd hate board big fella; although I can understand how you would have made that mistake

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Yeah nah. Don't think you remember correctly at all. Stenglein and Chick both nominated WCE. Like I said, players do it nearly every year and have done so for decades; many don't even give a shit what deal their old club gets. Judd deserves some credit for this, but he'll never see it from you blokes, despite you actually being happy with what you got.

And yes, pick one was off the table and you weren't gonna go getting from anyone else either. I think Freo are the only club to have traded away pick one since the draft got serious. What you got was a very fair trade, to the point that some may even claim you won that trade. And you're still whinging? FMD!



So the story goes, Collingwood not being able to detail the type of trade that would be sought knocked them out of the race for his signature; so clubs were definitely at risk of not securing him without offering up something reasonable - don't kid yourself otherwise. Judd was looking out for himself and looking out for his former club. I've got nothing more to so say on the matter other than he deserves some recognition for having done so; lack of such reflects more on those judging Judd than on Judd himself.

Judd knew Collingwood werent going to pay over the odds for him and didnt have pick 3 to throw around....or a young top five pick. The best they had was pick 14 and he knew they needed a ruckman way more than they needed another midfielder. He didnt show any respect to the Eagles. He went to the club that offered him the most money and had tha capacity to get a deal done.

 

[Monkey King]

All we wanted him to do was the same thing as every other ex-Eagle player who went home to Melbourne had the courtesy to do.

You've wanted him to make a poor decision that gives away his future so that your club can maybe, maybe not, squeeze just a little more from a trade. Completely unrealistic and self-absorbed IMO. The guy earned the right to choose his own destiny and helped land you probably the best trade you would have gotten.

I notice Judd only gets referred to as captain by WCE supporters when they're wanting to use it as some kind of stick to beat him with; otherwise his captaincy is generally completely devalued.

WCE have been kings of the third party deal btw and all reports have WCE offering his manager very similar terms. Given the rant you've descended into at this point, there's not much point going on with it from here.

 

[FGMPR]

You've wanted him to make a poor decision that gives away his future so that your club can maybe, maybe not, squeeze just a little more from a trade. Completely unrealistic and self-absorbed IMO. The guy earned the right to choose his own destiny and helped land you probably the best trade you would have gotten.

I notice Judd only gets referred to as captain by WCE supporters when they're wanting to use it as some kind of stick to beat him with; otherwise his captaincy is generally completely devalued.

WCE have been kings of the third party deal btw and all reports have WCE offering his manager very similar terms. Given the rant you've descended into at this point, there's not much point going on with it from here.

What rant? When did I deny WC were involved in 3rd party deals? How would he have "given away his future"?!?

What's the meaning of the bolded? what does it have to do with anything I've written? You didn't even have the courtesy to argue a single point from my last post, instead dismissing it all as a 'rant'. I'm all for a rational argument, but this isn't it, so I think I'm done responding to you after this post.

 

[new breed]

Juddy got some reduced price real Estate from the Satterley group in Perth as a third party bonus , that is not a huge bonus but the fact it was just before the Perth real estate boom , that was the real Bonus . Juddy was just lucky to be in Perth just prior to the real estate boom , Mr Satterley was pretty disappointed when Judd went home with real estate bonuses in hand

On a side note Juddy played with injections in his groin on Thursday so I wouldn't write him off just yet , a good break could be well needed !

 

[Tex_21]

So you don't think it's right, but you'd do worse yourself

Different scenarios completely. Judd (and several others), declared they were only going to go to one club, and as such, limited the competition for his services, likely (though not definitely) reducing the price paid. Ablett left under a very unusual situation, where a new club had opportunities that were not available to any other clubs.

Even if they were the same thing, an extra million a year would lead me to choose it, and never bat an eyelid.

 

[Monkey King]

What rant? When did I deny WC were involved in 3rd party deals? How would he have "given away his future"?!?

What's the meaning of the bolded? what does it have to do with anything I've written? You didn't even have the courtesy to argue a single point from my last post, instead dismissing it all as a 'rant'. I'm all for a rational argument, but this isn't it, so I think I'm done responding to you after this post.

I do admit that as soon as I got to the scumbag crook comments I simply stopped reading. But re the passion etc, I've commented on this before, no need to go again. I'm just saying that after nearly 5 years, you'd reckon you'd be able to think more rationally about the result. To answer your questions though ...

- When you started with the third party deals and scumbag crook comments, you entered ranting territory.
- When did I say you denied WC were involved in 3rd party deals?
- Allowing a future to be determined entirely by others = giving away a future IMO.
- The meaning of the bold text is that his captaincy has become an argument of convenience.
- You included that role in your argument and again, I think it lacks substance.

 

[Monkey King]

Different scenarios completely. Judd (and several others), declared they were only going to go to one club, and as such, limited the competition for his services, likely (though not definitely) reducing the price paid. Ablett left under a very unusual situation, where a new club had opportunities that were not available to any other clubs.

If Judd disrespected WCE, then Ablett shat all over your club. He left Geelong in no bargaining position at all and they got nothing like what WCE got for Judd. Ablett wasn't going home or anything; he stiffed your club only for some extra coin. And you reckon one is okay, but the other is not right?

So what that Judd limited competition for his services? He would have to be an idiot to have the bargaining power of being the best in the league and then just let others dictate where he is to play out his career. And really, you'd have to be an idiot to seriously suggest this is what he should have done. What Judd did was take control of his future and WCE's future, rather than letting it be the other way around; and he got a damned good result. In fact, the trade has gone on to become one of the better examples of a win-win trade in recent times. To me it seems that what everyone is really bitching about, is that Judd drove the car rather than sat back as a passenger.

 

[Tex_21]

If Judd disrespected WCE, then Ablett shat all over your club. He left Geelong in no bargaining position at all and they got nothing like what WCE got for Judd. Ablett wasn't going home or anything; he stiffed your club only for some extra coin. And you reckon one is okay, but the other is not right?

You misunderstand my point. I don't care that Judd stiffed WC (he did a bit, but that's not a major issue IMO), I also don't care that Ablett stiffed Geelong - clubs aren't loyal to players, so expecting players to be loyal to clubs is moronic. There are a few examples of it, and good for the players that have made that decision, but you can't use that as a default position. The extra coin Ablett stiffed us for was about $5m for the length of his contract. I'd drop a lot more than a job for that kind of cash.

So what that Judd limited competition for his services? He would have to be an idiot to have the bargaining power of being the best in the league and then just let others dictate where he is to play out his career. And really, you'd have to be an idiot to seriously suggest this is what he should have done. What Judd did was take control of his future and WCE's future, rather than letting it be the other way around; and he got a damned good result. In fact, the trade has gone on to become one of the better examples of a win-win trade in recent times. To me it seems that what everyone is really bitching about, is that Judd drove the car rather than sat back as a passenger.

Exactly, and I never pretended otherwise. The way the system worked in the past (when the Judd trade occurred) was that a player was traded like livestock - Judd effectively invoked free agency. My use of the term 'right' was innaccurate earlier, its not 'right' or 'wrong'. Its just against the system as it was. I think Judd chose Carlton from the options in Victoria largely because of the deal they offered him, and I don't have a problem with that - if it was all about emotion, the team he supported as a kid would have been more likely to gain his signature.

 

[QuietB]

If I were an Eagles supporter I would be pretty sure that Judd leaving was maybe the best thing that ever happened. Only the good guys are left from that era and the Eagles are flying. Judd did the right thing by ensuring the Eagles got looked after and no one could convince me that the eagles would be better off with Judd instead of Kennedy and Maston who is really growing. Isn't Priddas doing the exact same job Judd is doing at Carlton?