Christians are easily startled, but they'll soon be back. And in greater numbers 36:11

[Gethelred]

Welcome to the Ask an Atheist thread II.

Previous part:

Win Prizes - Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack. As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them. If you've still got...

www.bigfooty.com

Standard board rules apply.

 

[liz]

You already have.

Fair point.

Santa doesn’t bother visiting me anymore either.

 

[Total Power]

Why you keep up the banal low IQ comment is weird-nobody with his Oxford credentials has low IQ.
As far as relevance today, I know that millions of people in Lithuania and Ukraine had their faith revitalised by Lewis' books during the Soviet invasion; Lewis is such an effective evangelist and apologist because he emphasises what believers have in common, basic, consensual Christianity. YES, he writes for ALL Christians, but also any atheist who is searching; he was an atheist himself.
Of course, zero interest to you, but once you start denigrating exceptional people, you reflect nothing but ignorance and lousy bias.

Lousy bias, coming from you...oh the irony! Ignoring what the Bible is and carrying on about C.S Lewis who is pretty poor with facts. He was a philosopher, nothing more.

Oxford credentials lol..so what? there are scholars who still believe in YEC. Academics got nothing to do with application. Ben Carson is a double Phd who believes in YEC and flat earth.

How many times do i need to say it (and you are pretty slow or you have dementioa)...his audience are those fence seeking Christians who are ALREADY believers (just like you were all your life). I gave you an example why he is low IQ above. His bias rules over his book and he refuses to consider any other possibility outside of what he thinks is possible with his infamous Liar Lunatic Lord argument, which was a strawman to begin with. He is full of bias and presumption, which is why he is never appeal to a wider audience, people who can think critically.

You keep mentioning he is an atheist, so what? there's been millions who are reverse too. Consider Bart Ehrman, who was a devout Christian, who became one of the best NT scholars out there, who literally helped so many understand what Bible is actually.

His idea that science should fit into Christianity is supremacist attitude and it doesn't work. His assumption that Christianity is the work of God clouds his judgement. Science has proved Xtianity wrong, from Genesis all the way till the end. Why would i listen to someone who writes 'facts' like that?

Answer my questions, without adhoms.

 

[carltonchelsea]

True that

But CS Lewis looks like he got many things right.
A man ahead of his time, and still so relevant today, more than 60 years after his death.

Still couldn’t demonstrate nor comprehend his claims of the dull word god though could he, we’re still waiting!

 

[Total Power]

Still couldn’t demonstrate nor comprehend his claims of the dull word god though could he, we’re still waiting!

Lewis was a great writer, but a terrible philosopher. It’s astounding that he’s known for “Lewis’ Trilemma” when that argument is so poorly thought out as to be almost worthless. Like many believers, Lewis takes for granted that the Bible is unerringly true, so he misses at least two other possibilities - namely, that the people who wrote the Bible, not just Jesus, were insane or mistaken.

“C.S. Lewis is the ideal persuader for the half convinced, for the good man who would like to be a Christian but finds his intellect getting in the way.”

― Anthony Burgess

He had a group of brilliant, well-educated friends. Two were already devout Catholics, Tolkien and Hugo Dyson. The rest were non-Christian. He had to admit that he had not been able to convince any of those non-believers with his arguments.
But many others are easily convinced.

Prisoner of Narnia

How C. S. Lewis escaped.

www.newyorker.com

"A startling thing in Lewis’s letters to other believers is how much energy and practical advice is dispensed about how to keep your belief going: they are constantly writing to each other about the state of their beliefs, as chronic sinus sufferers might write to each other about the state of their noses. Keep your belief going, no matter what it takes—the thought not occurring that a belief that needs this much work to believe in isn’t really a belief but a very strong desire to believe."

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

"A startling thing in Lewis’s letters to other believers is how much energy and practical advice is dispensed about how to keep your belief going: they are constantly writing to each other about the state of their beliefs, as chronic sinus sufferers might write to each other about the state of their noses. Keep your belief going, no matter what it takes—the thought not occurring that a belief that needs this much work to believe in isn’t really a belief but a very strong desire to believe."

Which brings us back to my overriding opinion of belief: we have allowed belief in general, and religious belief in particular, to assume a gravity and assume a respect that it has no right to expect.

(To me it’s no coincidence that this trend has been most marked since the Enlightenment knocked religious explanations of the origins of life out of the park. You will struggle to find nearly so many references to Belief in pre-Enlightenment literature.)

As your quote says, what is the dividing line between belief and the desire (or determination) to believe? Very blurred in the minds of many religious folk, I’d say.

 

[GrayRanga]

C'mon all the Christian aplologists posting please put these into a context where these actions can be biblically defended

Former Broome Bishop accused of raping boy under 13

Christopher Alan Saunders will appear in court next week on six new charges, including one count of sexual penetration of a child under 13.

www.abc.net.au

Elizabeth Struhs trial verdict: members of Queensland religious sect guilty of killing of eight-year-old

Fourteen members of Toowoomba-based religious sect the Saints found guilty over the 2022 death of Struhs, who died of diabetic ketoacidosis due to the withdrawal of her insulin

www.theguardian.com

At either end of the spectrum; a small home church and the world's most powerful religious organisation

From a secular viewpoint the acussed's actions and the actions of the convicted are totally beyond the pale

Whilst I've read with interest the debates, did CS Lewis say anything about this?

 

[Boston tiger]

There may have been no trial at all to report.

1 Clement, may well be suggesting that Paul went to Spain and that he died there:



Mark 13 and Luke 21:20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near" is clearly referring to the First Jewish–Roman War (AD 66–74), which led to the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70.



What's the "event that is on the cards to happen"? Could you explain more exactly what you are referring to?


Who are "they"?

There's no historical record of Jerusalem being surrounded by armies until the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70. The Jewish rebellion didn't occur until AD 66, between 30-35 years after the traditional date for the cruxifixion.


It's "prophecy after the fact"



Part of the Temple and city were indeed destroyed by fire, but also some of the temple and city was pulled down by soldiers. Massive stone collapses from the Temple Mount's walls were discovered laying over the ancient Herodian street that runs along the Western Wall, just to the right of the plaza. I myself have seen these stones.

Ehrman believes Jesus made the prediction about the temple and it was no big deal for those times.


RonaldTaska June 16, 2020 at 1:36 pm

Hmm? But I thought the temple destruction story was added to the Gospels after the temple was actually destroyed and, hence, was not really predicted by the historical Jesus????.

BDEhrman June 16, 2020 at 8:05 pm

My view is that Jesus actually predicted it, as did Jeremiah long before. Nothing too weird about it; some people are predicting doom in our time! But the Gospels almost certainly containted the predictions originally.


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[Aristotle Pickett]

Why do Christians kill perfectly healthy 8 year old girls? Is it a power trip and are they just psychopaths?
She was basically tortured to death.
"She was described as speaking little, needing help going to the toilet, and being incontinent," prosecutor Caroline Marco said, adding that the girl would have endured vomiting, extreme lethargy, and a loss of consciousness.

The congregation, meanwhile, had prayed and sung for Elizabeth, whose health deteriorated as she lay on a mattress at her home in Toowoomba, about 125km (78 miles) west of Brisbane.'

Members of religious sect found guilty of manslaughter of young girl

Elizabeth Rose Struhs died in January 2022 after six days without her prescribed insulin shots for type-1 diabetes.

www.sbs.com.au

 

[western royboy]

Why do Christians kill perfectly healthy 8 year old girls? Is it a power trip and are they just psychopaths?
She was basically tortured to death.
"She was described as speaking little, needing help going to the toilet, and being incontinent," prosecutor Caroline Marco said, adding that the girl would have endured vomiting, extreme lethargy, and a loss of consciousness.

The congregation, meanwhile, had prayed and sung for Elizabeth, whose health deteriorated as she lay on a mattress at her home in Toowoomba, about 125km (78 miles) west of Brisbane.'

View attachment 2214162

Members of religious sect found guilty of manslaughter of young girl

Elizabeth Rose Struhs died in January 2022 after six days without her prescribed insulin shots for type-1 diabetes.

www.sbs.com.au

Indoctrinated sad pathetic animals..old mate let them down…again

 

[nobbyiscool]

Indoctrinated sad pathetic animals

I will never understand that level of indoctrination.

"God wants my daughter to not only die, but to suffer a horrific, painful, eminently preventable death right in front of my eyes? SIGN ME UP!"

Who is following that god?!

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Why do Christians kill perfectly healthy 8 year old girls? Is it a power trip and are they just psychopaths?
She was basically tortured to death.
"She was described as speaking little, needing help going to the toilet, and being incontinent," prosecutor Caroline Marco said, adding that the girl would have endured vomiting, extreme lethargy, and a loss of consciousness.

The congregation, meanwhile, had prayed and sung for Elizabeth, whose health deteriorated as she lay on a mattress at her home in Toowoomba, about 125km (78 miles) west of Brisbane.'

View attachment 2214162

Members of religious sect found guilty of manslaughter of young girl

Elizabeth Rose Struhs died in January 2022 after six days without her prescribed insulin shots for type-1 diabetes.

www.sbs.com.au

Again with this completely unearned respect given to Belief. This time in the judge’s decision to find them guilty of manslaughter rather than murder, because the defendants believed god would save the little girl whose insulin they were withholding.

 

[Vdubs]

C'mon all the Christian aplologists posting please put these into a context where these actions can be biblically defended

Former Broome Bishop accused of raping boy under 13

Christopher Alan Saunders will appear in court next week on six new charges, including one count of sexual penetration of a child under 13.

www.abc.net.au

Elizabeth Struhs trial verdict: members of Queensland religious sect guilty of killing of eight-year-old

Fourteen members of Toowoomba-based religious sect the Saints found guilty over the 2022 death of Struhs, who died of diabetic ketoacidosis due to the withdrawal of her insulin

www.theguardian.com

At either end of the spectrum; a small home church and the world's most powerful religious organisation

From a secular viewpoint the acussed's actions and the actions of the convicted are totally beyond the pale

Whilst I've read with interest the debates, did CS Lewis say anything about this?

Indeed
Of all bad men, religious bad men are the worst

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Again with this completely unearned respect given to Belief. This time in the judge’s decision to find them guilty of manslaughter rather than murder, because the defendants believed god would save the little girl whose insulin they were withholding.

Exactly

 

[liz]

Again with this completely unearned respect given to Belief. This time in the judge’s decision to find them guilty of manslaughter rather than murder, because the defendants believed god would save the little girl whose insulin they were withholding.

Unfortunately (in this context) the charge of murder does require intent. Their belief system, however {insert appropriate word because I can’t think of one} provides them with a shield.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Indoctrinated sad pathetic animals..old mate let them down…again

Yep

 

[GrayRanga]

Indeed
Of all bad men, religious bad men are the worst

So?

The cult "believed" that what they were doing was correct, definately using the examples of the biblical precedent

Who hold the Church and their believers (either a sect of mainstrean) to account?

God doesn't seem to be doing it, it's left up to the secular authorities

You believe that Christ was rose from the dead and this is God's actions, you believe that God can heal the sick through the intercession of prayer

What of their actions unbiblical or at least have a basis in the Bible that you believe is the "Word of God"?

 

[Obese Arachnid]

Why do Christians kill perfectly healthy 8 year old girls? Is it a power trip and are they just psychopaths?
She was basically tortured to death.
"She was described as speaking little, needing help going to the toilet, and being incontinent," prosecutor Caroline Marco said, adding that the girl would have endured vomiting, extreme lethargy, and a loss of consciousness.

The congregation, meanwhile, had prayed and sung for Elizabeth, whose health deteriorated as she lay on a mattress at her home in Toowoomba, about 125km (78 miles) west of Brisbane.'

View attachment 2214162

Members of religious sect found guilty of manslaughter of young girl

Elizabeth Rose Struhs died in January 2022 after six days without her prescribed insulin shots for type-1 diabetes.

www.sbs.com.au

She's in a better place, all part of God's great plan.

 

[Boston tiger]

C'mon all the Christian aplologists posting please put these into a context where these actions can be biblically defended

Former Broome Bishop accused of raping boy under 13

Christopher Alan Saunders will appear in court next week on six new charges, including one count of sexual penetration of a child under 13.

www.abc.net.au

Elizabeth Struhs trial verdict: members of Queensland religious sect guilty of killing of eight-year-old

Fourteen members of Toowoomba-based religious sect the Saints found guilty over the 2022 death of Struhs, who died of diabetic ketoacidosis due to the withdrawal of her insulin

www.theguardian.com

At either end of the spectrum; a small home church and the world's most powerful religious organisation

From a secular viewpoint the acussed's actions and the actions of the convicted are totally beyond the pale

Whilst I've read with interest the debates, did CS Lewis say anything about this?

Not really sure what you are asking but …
Roy will tell that before Christianity infanticide was common in many societies and cultures. This article will get you up to speed …

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/early-christianitys-resistance-to-infanticide-and-exposure/10898016

It’s a long read and covers a few areas but as Roy will point out that our morals are subjective. Here’s snippet

“First, the early church openly condemned the practices of infanticide and exposure, despite the fact it was a socially acceptable practice throughout the Graeco-Roman world. While they did not specifically address the plight of infants with physical deformities, they did vehemently oppose the general practices of infanticide and exposure In comparison to the Graeco-Roman world, which generally considered one's worth to be based on the value of the contribution one could make to the greater community, ….”the early Christians promoted the idea of inherent value that came from being created in the image of God. …As Gary Ferngren summarises, "In their blanket condemnation of exposure the Christians implicitly affirmed the right of even the defective to live."

Second, the church responded to the practices of infanticide and exposure through their care of exposed infants. From the earliest days of the Christian church, Christians collected funds for distribution to the poor and sick. As part of their concern for the vulnerable members in their community, the early Christians acted to protect exposed infants. This was done through the development of hospitals with designated sections for foundlings and through the later development of orphanages that would house and care for foundlings as well as for infants whose parents had died. Indeed, the Christian church gained such a reputation for their care of exposed infants that churches became the established site for abandoning infants.

Finally, the response of the early church can also be seen from a political and legal perspective. Whereas imperial law "neither penalized nor promoted the abandonment of newborn infants," in 331 CE the Christian Roman emperor Constantine revoked the ruling that allowed exposed infants to be reclaimed by their parents as a means of deterring those who were exposing their infants and reclaiming them at a later stage. Exposure continued to be an issue throughout the empire, however, and in 374 CU Constantine's successor, Valentinian I, passed down the first law requiring parents to rear their children. Valentinian I also decreed that the killing of an infant was a capital offence. “


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[Boston tiger]

So?

The cult "believed" that what they were doing was correct, definately using the examples of the biblical precedent

Who hold the Church and their believers (either a sect of mainstrean) to account?

God doesn't seem to be doing it, it's left up to the secular authorities

You believe that Christ was rose from the dead and this is God's actions, you believe that God can heal the sick through the intercession of prayer

What of their actions unbiblical or at least have a basis in the Bible that you believe is the "Word of God"?

It’s all pretty self explanatory what went on. You are always going to get nutjobs. I don’t know what you were exposed to Christian sect wise but the saying .. if you don’t believe in something you will believe anything . The Pastor sounds like a nut job


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[Roylion]

Hmm? But I thought the temple destruction story was added to the Gospels after the temple was actually destroyed and, hence, was not really predicted by the historical Jesus????.

There are several arguments for this

A date of shortly after AD 70 places Mark in the early reign of the first Flavian emperor, Vespasian (who ruled AD 69–79). Mark 13:14 seems to refer to Vespasian, despite occasional arguments for the zealot Eleazar or the Emperor Gaius. The citation of the Danielic vision in Mark 13:14 parallels Josephus citation of Daniel's prophecy of the temple's fall in A.J. 10.276.

Mark 14:57-58 and 15:29 attribute to Jesus the claim that he will destroy the temple and raise it again in three days. Mark talks about Jesus' role in bringing about the destruction - NOT whether or not the temple will actually fall. This assumes that the temple's fall was not a matter of controversy in Mark's context. In other words the Temple had already fallen. The fall of the temple, and the suffering and disruption associated with it, as it essentially brought the Jewish world to an end and ushered in a new era. Almost a new world.

The literary function of predictions in narrative texts like Mark is important to establish that successful predictions play a major role in the various narrative, reinforcing the authority of the one making the prediction (in this case Jesus) and confirming the accuracy of the text’s theological view. It is like reading Jeremiah. It works because the reader knows that the prophecies of doom turned out to be correct. It is about when prophecy succeeds.

The text makes sense as Mark’s attempt to signal, in a post-70 context, that the event familiar to his readers was anticipated by Jesus, in word (Mark 13.2, 13.14) and deed (Mark 11.12-21) and in the symbolism of his death, when the veil of the temple was torn in two (Mark 15.38). The framing of the narrative requires knowledge of the destruction of the temple for its literary impact to be felt. In Mark 15.29-30 Jesus is taunted on the cross.

"So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, come down from the cross and save yourself!"

So the reader of Mark after AD 70 understood that the Temple has been destroyed; the mockers look foolish from the privileged perspective of the post-70 reader, who now sees that Jesus’ death is the moment when the temple was destroyed, the deity departing as the curtain is torn, the event of the Temple destruction interpreted through Gospel narrative and prophecy.

Another piece of evidence for a post-70 dating of Mark is the legion of demons sent into pigs at the Gerasenes. In Josephus' account of the war, Gerasa was a region razed by Vespasian shortly before his final march on Jerusalem. The tenth legion, which occupied the city afterward, used the boar as an emblem, and left icons of pigs graffitied all over as a sign of disrespect. The exorcism and drowning of the Legion in Mark allegorically represents Jesus defeating the demonic power of Rome.

 

[Boston tiger]

So?

The cult "believed" that what they were doing was correct, definately using the examples of the biblical precedent

Who hold the Church and their believers (either a sect of mainstrean) to account?

God doesn't seem to be doing it, it's left up to the secular authorities

You believe that Christ was rose from the dead and this is God's actions, you believe that God can heal the sick through the intercession of prayer

What of their actions unbiblical or at least have a basis in the Bible that you believe is the "Word of God"?

Is this what you mean

“Sirach 38:1-4
Revised Standard Version
Concerning Physicians and Health

38 Honor the physician with the honor due him,[a] according to your need of him,
for the Lord created him;
2 for healing comes from the Most High,
and he will receive a gift from the king.
3 The skill of the physician lifts up his head,
and in the presence of great men he is admired.
4 The Lord created medicines from the earth,
and a sensible man will not despise them.”

If you want to go down a rabbit hole you could investigate why Catholics and Eastern Orthodox have that in their Bible and Protestant’s don’t.


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[Total Power]

It’s all pretty self explanatory what went on. You are always going to get nutjobs. I don’t know what you were exposed to Christian sect wise but the saying .. if you don’t believe in something you will believe anything . The Pastor sounds like a nut job


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rubbish. You people believe in authoritarianism from a higher power. That's what ends up making so many of them shitty people. They think they always hold the moral high ground and are very judgemental of others.

Highly religious people are less motivated by compassion than are non-believers - Berkeley News

“Love thy neighbor” is preached from many a pulpit. But new research from UC Berkeley suggests the devoutly religious are less motivated by compassion when helping a stranger than are atheists, agnostics and less religious people.

news.berkeley.edu

“Love thy neighbor” is preached from many a pulpit. But new research from the University of California, Berkeley, suggests that the highly religious are less motivated by compassion when helping a stranger than are atheists, agnostics and less religious people.


You people tend to embrace the 'us vs them' mentality and dehumanize the people in the out group. When you view people who are different from you (like other religions or other belief systems) as lesser humans or simply , you become capable of atrocities. Have you not the OT? How did God treat those who worshipped other deities?

The very wealthy and powerful are guilty of the exact same thing. When the very religious also become wealthy and powerful...that's where genocide comes from.

 

[carltonchelsea]

Indeed
Of all bad men, religious bad men are the worst

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.

Steven Weinberg.

 

[carltonchelsea]

She's in a better place, all part of God's great plan.

That’s the religious reasoning and it is pure evil.

 

[carltonchelsea]

Yahweh/God/Allah….call the fairy sky daddy whatever dialect you choose, but it is the most callous, pernicious, hateful despicable, disgusting, destructive creation mankind has ever invented and it shows, doesn’t it?
**** your god and **** you for “believing” in it.
I would have happily cared for that little girl and protected her and nurtured her beyond those scum and their cult.
Christian dogma and Christ are pure evil, it’s about time we recognised this as a society and culture!