Christians are easily startled, but they'll soon be back. And in greater numbers 36:11

[Gethelred]

Welcome to the Ask an Atheist thread II.

Previous part:

Win Prizes - Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack. As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them. If you've still got...

www.bigfooty.com

Standard board rules apply.

 

[liz]

The fantasy is basically the same.

Not really, other than to the extent that all fantasy is fantastical.

 

[Total Power]

Again, once your standpoint is that you KNOW Christianity is not for you, Apologetics will not do it for you. That is clearly the reverse situation to your point that once you're a believer, there's no way out.

There always is a way out, but you are too stubborn to know otherwise. So why say he's a brilliant writer? if his only target audience are Christians, he's hardly a brilliant writer and please note, he is also heavily criticised within the Christian world. A brilliant writer should be for all kinds of audiences. Not just a specific one. He says science should fit into Christianity, i don't know anyone with a semblance of education would agree. But religion does that to you..it switches off that part of the brain.

Lewis a very ordinary writer. Even Tolkien, a devout Catholic, disliked Lewis's Narnia series because of all the forced Christian allegory and apologetics in them. But Mere Christianity is a fiction writer trying to come off as an academic while posturing apologetic arguments that are inherently flawed. (I listed a few of them in my earlier posts, as usual, you ignored all of them and carried on with your posts).

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

A decapitated doll and a prayer for my death: The many, many threats of the Exclusive Brethren

A parcel mailed to me at The Age office contained a small, blonde female doll, its head had been ripped from its shoulders. It wasn’t the only threat the members of the Exclusive Brethren had made against me.

www.smh.com.au

Oh so very Christ-like.

I don’t see why I should pay any attention to someone proclaiming the goodness of Christianity while this sort of thing goes on by Christians.

 

[Vdubs]

A decapitated doll and a prayer for my death: The many, many threats of the Exclusive Brethren

A parcel mailed to me at The Age office contained a small, blonde female doll, its head had been ripped from its shoulders. It wasn’t the only threat the members of the Exclusive Brethren had made against me.

www.smh.com.au

Oh so very Christ-like.

I don’t see why I should pay any attention to someone proclaiming the goodness of Christianity while this sort of thing goes on by Christians.

Why always focus on extreme nutters like this, as if they represent global Christianity

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Why always focus on extreme nutters like this, as if they represent global Christianity

Because Christians tell us they’re “saved” from not being Christian.

Also, because it’s quite wicked and undemocratic, the amount of behind-the-scenes influence this mob have.

All very well for them to abjure voting, but that doesn’t give them the right to circumvent it for everyone else.

As you read the article, did it not alarm you to see the degree to which politicians and the police seem to do their bidding?

 

[Boston tiger]

Atheism
By
Rowe, William


Atheism is the position that affirms the nonexistence of God. It proposes positive disbelief rather than mere suspension of belief.
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy

 

[GrayRanga]

Because Christians tell us they’re “saved” from not being Christian.

Also, because it’s quite wicked and undemocratic, the amount of behind-the-scenes influence this mob have.

All very well for them to abjure voting, but that doesn’t give them the right to circumvent it for everyone else.

As you read the article, did it not alarm you to see the degree to which politicians and the police seem to do their bidding?

Many years ago (and in a previous job), I was tasked to take minutes of a number of interviews with prisoners in the sex offender section of a protection prison.

Over dinner that night (after we had all had long showers to try and cleanse our minds of what we had heard), somebody asked rhetorically why so many of those interviewed had found religion whilst inside,

The most religious of the interviewers expressed (possibly semi cynically ) the mainstream religious approach, that that by finding God their sins were assuaged and they could put their sinful life behind them to start afresh.

The most senior, cynical and world weary of the interviewers expressed a diffferent opinion

1 They believed that expressing a new found religious belief it may help the propects of their release.

2 Churches are full of recently divorced or separated single mums seeking help from the Church community

3 In a Church community, a male may not be expected to quickly form a sexual relationship with the mum and his positive attitude towards the children was percieved part of a deeper support for her

4 Should he submit to the enticement of pre-pubescent children in his care, he could just ask for forgiveness from God until the next time he succumbed

5 Churches are happy hunting grounds for paedophiles

 

[evolved2]

Atheism
By
Rowe, William


Atheism is the position that affirms the nonexistence of God. It proposes positive disbelief rather than mere suspension of belief.
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy

That's not really true in practice. Belief is on a spectrum. Some theists have more faith than others, don't they? In the same way, some atheists strongly disbelieve, some aren't convinced, and some are apathetic.

1. Strong theist. 100% probability of God. In the words of Carl Jung: "I do not believe, I know."
2. De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100%. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
3. Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50% but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
4. Completely impartial. Exactly 50%. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
5. Leaning towards atheism. Lower than 50% but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
6. De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
7. Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_of_theistic_probability

Then you have ignosticism which I also view as a form of atheism.

Ignosticism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Total Power]

Atheism
By
Rowe, William


Atheism is the position that affirms the nonexistence of God. It proposes positive disbelief rather than mere suspension of belief.
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy

im a non-smoker. I acknowledge that doesn't tell you about my overall health or what other vices I might have. But it isn't supposed to do that. Other labels can accomplish that.

Im an atheist because I lack a belief in any of the gods that are claimed to exist by religions. And until such time as credible and verifiable evidence (and to an extent, UNIQUE to that particular religion, where the followers of that particular religion experienced it only) for deities is presented there is no reason to pretend they do.

Saying Jesus heard me and changed me life is not credible nor unique. God has better things to 'save' than your privileged first world life.

 

[evolved2]

im a non-smoker. I acknowledge that doesn't tell you about my overall health or what other vices I might have. But it isn't supposed to do that. Other labels can accomplish that.

Im an atheist because I lack a belief in any of the gods that are claimed to exist by religions. And until such time as credible and verifiable evidence (and to an extent, UNIQUE to that particular religion, where the followers of that particular religion experienced it only) for deities is presented there is no reason to pretend they do.

Saying Jesus heard me and changed me life is not credible nor unique. God has better things to 'save' than your privileged first world life.

You'll smoke in Hell!

Not gonna lie, Christians and Muslims make me hope the afterlife is real.

 

[Total Power]

Not gonna lie, Christians and Muslims make me hope the afterlife is real.

Why are so many heathens so desperate to live on?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

You'll smoke in Hell!

Not gonna lie, Christians and Muslims make me hope the afterlife is real.

Heaven sounds like a really good place to put all the Christians.

 

[sdfc]

Seems like a choice between an old man in the sky or nothingness after we die.

 

[evolved2]

Seems like a choice between an old man in the sky or nothingness after we die.

Choice is an illusion.

 

[sdfc]

Choice is an illusion.

That's a copout. It's ok to say you think we cease to exist after we die or you find it pointless to contemplate.

 

[Boston tiger]

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That's a copout. It's ok to say you think we cease to exist after we die or you find it pointless to contemplate.

Atheist author Bertrand Russell wrote: “All the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins” (“A Free Man’s Worship,” essay).

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Atheist author Bertrand Russell wrote: “All the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins” (“A Free Man’s Worship,” essay).

Which part of that are you having trouble with?

 

[Rusty Brookes]

We seem to be treading some familiar territory here but a couple of points:

1) CS Lewis is one of the greatest fantasy writers ever. The Narnia books were a massive and cherished part of my childhood (and I still love them today). But he was a fantasy writer - the irony isn't lost on me that apologists often quote him as "evidence" for the existence of God.

2) The Brethren obviously do not represent all Christians (just as Hamas doesn't represent all Muslims or the Netanyahu government doesn't represent all Jews) but I do see an aspect of the True Scotsmen fallacy in play here. They are Christians (just as the Catholic church is) and are a horrible bunch of people. Their views are based on a literal translation of the Bible and highlights 100% why church and state MUST be separated. It's not up to non-believers to have to deal with it - they are part of Christianity whether Christians like it or not.

3) evolved2's point re: the different levels of atheism is spot on. I'd consider myself a De facto atheist but agnostic, deist, 100% atheist - it really doesn't matter. At the end of the day, we want to live our lives free of religious interference.

4) As an atheist, I don't hate religious people. I have religious family and friends. There are religious people I admire. I just think they are wrong in their belief and misguided, if not uneducated. I also worry for some of them - recently had a family member be totally sucked in by a "pastor" who promised that another relative who had a serious health issue would be "fine" and "recover" because God had told them so. Said relative passed away the next day. I don't know whether they paid for the revelation but I'm guessing they're forking over cash as a tithe or for services rendered. It's disgusting and highlights how exploitative religion is.

 

[Boston tiger]

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We seem to be treading some familiar territory here but a couple of points:

[emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]) CS Lewis is one of the greatest fantasy writers ever. The Narnia books were a massive and cherished part of my childhood (and I still love them today). But he was a fantasy writer - the irony isn't lost on me that apologists often quote him as "evidence" for the existence of God.

[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]) The Brethren obviously do not represent all Christians (just as Hamas doesn't represent all Muslims or the Netanyahu government doesn't represent all Jews) but I do see an aspect of the True Scotsmen fallacy in play here. They are Christians (just as the Catholic church is) and are a horrible bunch of people. Their views are based on a literal translation of the Bible and highlights [emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]% why church and state MUST be separated. It's not up to non-believers to have to deal with it - they are part of Christianity whether Christians like it or not.

[emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]]) evolved[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]'s point re: the different levels of atheism is spot on. I'd consider myself a De facto atheist but agnostic, deist, [emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]% atheist - it really doesn't matter. At the end of the day, we want to live our lives free of religious interference.

[emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]]) As an atheist, I don't hate religious people. I have religious family and friends. There are religious people I admire. I just think they are wrong in their belief and misguided, if not uneducated. I also worry for some of them - recently had a family member be totally sucked in by a "pastor" who promised that another relative who had a serious health issue would be "fine" and "recover" because God had told them so. Said relative passed away the next day. I don't know whether they paid for the revelation but I'm guessing they're forking over cash as a tithe or for services rendered. It's disgusting and highlights how exploitative religion is.

Old ground for sure …but here we go again .

CS Lewis was also a literacy historian and points out if the Gospels were not true accounts of Jesus then the writers used techniques that weren’t even thought of for another [emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]] years.
“
“Another point is that on that view you would have to regard the accounts of the Man as being legends. Now, as a literary historian, I am perfectly convinced that whatever else the Gospels are they are not legends. I have read a great deal of legend and I am quite clear that they are not the same sort of thing. They are not artistic enough to be legends. From an imaginative point of view they are clumsy, they don’t work up to things properly. Most of the life of Jesus is totally unknown to us, as is the life of anyone else who lived at that time, and no people building up a legend would allow that to be so. Apart from bits of the Platonic dialogues, there are no conversations that I know of in ancient literature like the Fourth Gospel. There is nothing, even in modern literature, until about a hundred years ago when the realistic novel came into existence. In the story of the woman taken in adultery we are told Christ bent down and scribbled in the dust with His finger. Nothing comes of this. No one has ever based any doctrine on it. And the art of inventing little irrelevant details to make an imaginary scene more convincing is a purely modern art. Surely the only explanation of this passage is that the thing really happened? The author put it in simply because he had seen it.”
-C.S. Lewis, “What Are We to Make of Jesus Christ?“

“I have been reading poems, romances, vision literature, legends, and myths all my life. I know what they are like. I know none of them are like this. Of this text, there are only two possible views. Either this is reportage…or else, some unknown writer…without known predecessors or successors, suddenly anticipated the whole technique of modern novelistic, realistic narrative…. The reader who doesn’t see this has simply not learned how to read,”
– C.S. Lewis, Christian Reflections

 

[Seeds]

Seems like a choice between an old man in the sky or nothingness after we die.

It isnt a choice.

 

[carltonchelsea]

The answer, for me, is that it doesn’t (have any more significance).

The key difference between believers and non-believers is, I suspect, a determination that there has to be some meaning to everything.

I don’t have a clue what Lewis thinks he means by that.

You don’t understand because it’s complete meaningless babble.

 

[carltonchelsea]

Atheism
By
Rowe, William


Atheism is the position that affirms the nonexistence of God. It proposes positive disbelief rather than mere suspension of belief.
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy

You support a death cult that signed agreements with Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Salazar, and the entirety of the Balkan fascist movements.
You support a death cult that had to make literal apologies for thousands of atrocities they committed on almost every continent.
Most were made by Pope Jean Paul, a truly gifted man, yet this was all manufactured and undone by the Nazi Ratzinger.
Your church is pure evil, you are a suppository of that very compromise to human emancipation from that evil.
I lay this at your feet, because I want you to know that you, you being very directed and personal, are the enemy of humanity.
What a beautiful day I’m enjoying….cheers!

 

[Vdubs]

Old ground for sure …but here we go again .

CS Lewis was also a literacy historian and points out if the Gospels were not true accounts of Jesus then the writers used techniques that weren’t even thought of for another [emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]] years.
“
“Another point is that on that view you would have to regard the accounts of the Man as being legends. Now, as a literary historian, I am perfectly convinced that whatever else the Gospels are they are not legends. I have read a great deal of legend and I am quite clear that they are not the same sort of thing. They are not artistic enough to be legends. From an imaginative point of view they are clumsy, they don’t work up to things properly. Most of the life of Jesus is totally unknown to us, as is the life of anyone else who lived at that time, and no people building up a legend would allow that to be so. Apart from bits of the Platonic dialogues, there are no conversations that I know of in ancient literature like the Fourth Gospel. There is nothing, even in modern literature, until about a hundred years ago when the realistic novel came into existence. In the story of the woman taken in adultery we are told Christ bent down and scribbled in the dust with His finger. Nothing comes of this. No one has ever based any doctrine on it. And the art of inventing little irrelevant details to make an imaginary scene more convincing is a purely modern art. Surely the only explanation of this passage is that the thing really happened? The author put it in simply because he had seen it.”
-C.S. Lewis, “What Are We to Make of Jesus Christ?“

“I have been reading poems, romances, vision literature, legends, and myths all my life. I know what they are like. I know none of them are like this. Of this text, there are only two possible views. Either this is reportage…or else, some unknown writer…without known predecessors or successors, suddenly anticipated the whole technique of modern novelistic, realistic narrative…. The reader who doesn’t see this has simply not learned how to read,”
– C.S. Lewis, Christian Reflections

what's with the invisible emoji's?

 

[Vdubs]

im a non-smoker. I acknowledge that doesn't tell you about my overall health or what other vices I might have. But it isn't supposed to do that. Other labels can accomplish that.

Im an atheist because I lack a belief in any of the gods that are claimed to exist by religions. And until such time as credible and verifiable evidence (and to an extent, UNIQUE to that particular religion, where the followers of that particular religion experienced it only) for deities is presented there is no reason to pretend they do.

Saying Jesus heard me and changed me life is not credible nor unique. God has better things to 'save' than your privileged first world life.

This is where you are missing something. The very fact that individuals, real people, real humans, recognise they are fallen, seek God, and ask Jesus to come into their lives through His Holy Spirit, and then have dramatically changed lives, is the very essence of the Christian life. The uniqueness is that Jesus was with God at the beginning of time, before Abraham, and became human for the sake of mankind after the years of failure by civilisation to accept God's sovereignty, and that it is His spirit that empowers individuals to live the Christian life despite the derision, the questioning, the ridicule and in some parts, the slaying of their lives.
Christ was and is, “the Word made flesh”. Specifically, John 1:14: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth”.
The Word was with the Almighty at the beginning of time. Revelation 22:13: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End”. The Almighty, being the Embodiment of the Universe, transcends space and time, along with The Word. Jesus, born of Mary, was simply a manifestation of the Word. Which existed well before Abraham.
A tree is known by its fruit. Luke 6:44: “Each tree is recognised by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thorn bushes, or grapes from briers”. The entire Western World, and a great portion of the East, revolves around Jesus of Nazareth. Our very sense of time and history begins, whether you ascribe to the year being A.D. (Anno Domini; the year of our Lord) or C.E. (Common Era) and revolves around Christ’s birth.

What do you say about this passage?

John 8:48-59

English Standard Version

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Before Abraham Was, I Am​

48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[b] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself an
Jesus was not a mere Rabbi and Holy Man. Our World, our history is the fruit of God’s Eternal Son. Who was with the Almighty, just as the Word resides with the Almighty. Again, before Abraham.

 

[carltonchelsea]

And in refutation, as always, the claims of the buybul are the claim and in no way evidence for historical accuracy!
Lame as usual….