Collingwood 2016 Pre-Season Discussion

[Scodog10]

I'm with you on Tooveys drop in form last season. He did appear to lose some pace. But again, age or injury? Does he deserve a chance to return to his best?

Not really sure about his decline, but I don't think he's been quite the same post the knee injury. He definitely deserves a chance to return if he performs at VFL level and those ahead of him struggle or cop injuries.

Unfortunately though like O'Bree in 10 and Licuria in 08 (I think) there comes a time when every player is squeezed out of the best 22 and Toovey's time has come, IMO, on the back of the second half of 2015.

 

[3rd Monkey]

Edwards is not Elite. Delideo and Riewoldt are on the Border and Rance would be after his Season

You need to watch more footy, TD. Edwards is a fantastic player these days and plays his role very well. Makes things happen and sets up a lot. Deledio the same and he's been that way for a decade. Rance also been arguably the best key defender in the league for the past two years.

Pies will naturally get more elite players as we rise up. Sidey, Treloar, Adams, De Goey, Grundy, maybe Marley all chances to get there in the next few years and stay there. And Reid if he stays fit.

 

[Big Bryza]

I'm with you on Tooveys drop in form last season. He did appear to lose some pace. But again, age or injury? Does he deserve a chance to return to his best?

I actually think its more agility issues with Toovey post knee reco. More than happy for the young fellas to go past him this season.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

You need to watch more footy, TD. Edwards is a fantastic player these days and plays his role very well. Makes things happen and sets up a lot. Deledio the same and he's been that way for a decade. Rance also been arguably the best key defender in the league for the past two years.

Pies will naturally get more elite players as we rise up. Sidey, Treloar, Adams, De Goey, Grundy, maybe Marley all chances to get there in the next few years and stay there. And Reid if he stays fit.

There is a lot of good in this post, but if you think Edwards is elite and Treloar is not, you are sadly (or perhaps happily, given that you are a Pies supporter) mistaken. Treloar is on a different level to Edwards already and has far more untapped potential still. It isn't even close.

 

[Jelly Bean]

I disagree. IMO, Frost's role was made redundant when Reid returned because like Toovey he doesn't do enough going the other way. It's up to him now to add another layer to his game to challenge Brown for the main shutdown KPD position.

Are you able to provide any specific examples where Marsh's agility has been exploited? Because the football I've seen from him indicates that it's one of his strengths and when coupled with his size, areal ability, speed, leadership (best talker at the club currently) and willingness to take the game on he's primed to slot into that shutdown and rebound role. Basically he has it over Toovey currently and only poor team selection or injury from here will see him, or Frost for that matter, move ahead.

I want to start this off by being clear that I am not making this about Marsh v Toovey. IMO Toovey is just about finished, and Marsh is just about getting started.

Marsh last year was brought in to play KPD (with Frost making way for him mostly) and in that role he played on key forwards (and did a good job). Never though have I seen him play on mediums / smalls, not at AFL or VFL. It is the difference between playing on Reiwoldt when playing Richmond, or Deledio. He can certainly play on Reiwoldt, not sure about Deledio (who a Toovey type player would pick up). Or a Lennon, Martin, Edwards.

I agree with your assessment of Marsh's speed, size, arial ability, leadership and voice, I'm just not convinced that his speed isn't straight-line speed, although to your point, I don't actually have a clear example of where he has been exploited. Until then I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Marsh is going to be fascinating to watch this year, and I really hope we develop him as a medium (and even small) defender in the James Clement role, otherwise he will probably find himself playing a bit of VFL footy behind Brown and Reid at least. If he can master the medium defender role, he probably has a spot in the seniors from early on, given Scharenberg's injury.

As Quicky said, I think the NAB Cup would be a great time to test him out.

 

[1892]

I want to start this off by being clear that I am not making this about Marsh v Toovey. IMO Toovey is just about finished, and Marsh is just about getting started.

Marsh last year was brought in to play KPD (with Frost making way for him mostly) and in that role he played on key forwards (and did a good job). Never though have I seen him play on mediums / smalls, not at AFL or VFL. It is the difference between playing on Reiwoldt when playing Richmond, or Deledio. He can certainly play on Reiwoldt, not sure about Deledio (who a Toovey type player would pick up). Or a Lennon, Martin, Edwards.

I agree with your assessment of Marsh's speed, size, arial ability, leadership and voice, I'm just not convinced that his speed isn't straight-line speed, although to your point, I don't actually have a clear example of where he has been exploited. Until then I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Marsh is going to be fascinating to watch this year, and I really hope we develop him as a medium (and even small) defender in the James Clement role, otherwise he will probably find himself playing a bit of VFL footy behind Brown and Reid at least. If he can master the medium defender role, he probably has a spot in the seniors from early on, given Scharenberg's injury.

As Quicky said, I think the NAB Cup would be a great time to test him out.

Good post, I see Marsh and Toovey as different players with an overlap in their roles. Toovey can play on small and medium players, whereas Marsh can play on medium (as you say untested at AFL level) and talls.

Long term I more see Marsh as Goldsack's replacement and Ramsay as Toovey's.

 

[Scodog10]

More i read and the more i see if Bucks misses finals he is gone.

The Carlton Board?

Or maybe 10571z knows something because the rumoured one year extension says to me finals or pack your bags...

 

[ClaytonM]

Toovey's time has come, IMO, on the back of the second half of 2015.

Too small a sample size IMO. By that logic Swanny would have been gone after 2014 given his putrid year.

I don't think you can write anyone off on our list at the moment. It will all come down to form. Toovey at his best is best 22. Whether he is still capable of his best is yet to be seen.

Marsh on exposed form is probably not best 22. But with a strong showing over the next two months could well be best 22.

Just sit back and enjoy the ride. These should be exciting times as our group of young talent push for spots. Picking a best 22 at the moment generally results in me leaving one or two players out that I would rather have in.

At the moment there is no form to go on. Form this year will determine spots, not what form players were in last year. Just enjoy the show.

 

[PicaBoo]

Or maybe 10571z knows something because the rumoured one year extension says to me finals or pack your bags...

With all the noise from coach and playets, including Pendles, finals is no longer a goal, it is a demand.

 

[Maggie5]

This is a really interesting article and was quite surprised by the last paragraph re Nathan Brown:
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...-urged-to-show-true-grit-20160208-gmokip.html

"Brown was rated "above average" by Champion Data, and ranked No.1 in the league in defending leads. He allowed opponents to mark only 61 per cent of the time, below the league average of 85 per cent. He conceded only 24 goals".

 

[Apex36]

This is a really interesting article and was quite surprised by the last paragraph re Nathan Brown:
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...-urged-to-show-true-grit-20160208-gmokip.html

"Brown was rated "above average" by Champion Data, and ranked No.1 in the league in defending leads. He allowed opponents to mark only 61 per cent of the time, below the league average of 85 per cent. He conceded only 24 goals".

Not surprising to me at all. Brown is criminally underrated by some on these and other forums simply because he doesn't provide the rebound of a Reid, but as far as pure shutdown players go he's one of the best in the league.

 

[sirlothie]

Brown doesn't give opponents an inch, he is always right on their hammer and always gets a fist in there. And he's strong enough not to get outbodied. We are far better with him playing. Gun.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Buckley turned down a 2 year extension in favour of a 1 year extension
He has always put the club first

 

[sirlothie]

Buckley turned down a 2 year extension in favour of a 1 year extension
He has always put the club first

Trav Cloke could take a leaf out of his book...

 

[Apex36]

Buckley turned down a 2 year extension in favour of a 1 year extension
He has always put the club first

Do you have any evidence of that, or is it your own rhetoric?

 

[sirlothie]

Do you have any evidence of that, or is it your own rhetoric?

It's in the article Buckley proposed the 12 month extension.

But he didn't really have a footing of results to warrant anything more than that.

 

[Apex36]

I see. I'd say Buckley would be fairly confident of improvement this year though. The talent is there, and the attitude of the players is right. Consistency is key, and if they can play as consistently well all year as they did for the first half of 2015 I'd say finals will be a lock.

Was looking on the main board at the ladder predictions thread and the Pies are somewhat of an enigma this year. The majority don't have us making finals, but the ones that do, seem not only have us in the 8, but in the top four, and in some cases 1st or 2nd with as many as 18 wins. Will be interesting to see how 2016 unfolds!

 

[Bay Pie]

Buckley turned down a 2 year extension in favour of a 1 year extension
He has always put the club first

This can never be questioned. It would have been better for him personally, to have kept the guys we've traded. We'd be better in the short term but unlikely to win it all. He went the course to win a flag. Whether he ends up being the coach that takes us there, is yet to be seen, but I'm glad we've taken this route since 2012. We'd be a sought after team to coach, if Bucks doesn't continue on. Quality young talent.

 

[Scodog10]

With all the noise from coach and playets, including Pendles, finals is no longer a goal, it is a demand.

Exactly and I'd like to see it filter through to the supporter base as well. There's been some rationalisation of poor results through age and injuries, but that doesn't exist internally which should be reflected on here.

Ultimately the Buckley megathread shouldn't even be required this year if we're serious about getting back to where we need to be.

 

[PicaBoo]

Exactly and I'd like to see it filter through to the supporter base as well. There's been some rationalisation of poor results through age and injuries, but that doesn't exist internally which should be reflected on here.

Ultimately the Buckley megathread shouldn't even be required this year if we're serious about getting back to where we need to be.

With you there. With fit top 10 picks and Reid , we would have been playing finals every time. It is what it is . This group is looking good. #timetoswoop

 

[cleomenes]

Too many people have sidetracked my initial post to argue that Marsh will replace Toovey (or already has) Their only real point of similarity is their pace. The role I would see Marsh pushing for is the one that Maxwell occupied. Tall, mobile, able to take the real key position men at a pinch, and apparently a budding back line director is where Marsh seems headed. Toovey is someone who shuts down an opponent with crazy courage, exceptional pace and strong hands. He is a line breaker in everything except kicking, but not quite a Harry O'Brien when it comes to breaking clear of congestion.
Marsh has some of that break clear ability, but whether he can approach every one on one as a contest he was going to win as Harry did I don't know. I hope so.
My initial point was only that we are very lucky to have Toovey, whose capacity to beat much touted medium large forwards is perhaps best shown by his dominance over Darling. I believe he is equipped to establish the same control over Stringer. Whether he will is yet to be seen. If he can, it means that big decoy forwards can be left to Brown and Reid, who would struggle with Stringer's elusiveness, and our side would not be unbalanced playing the dogs. It was his ability to nullify Darling that allowed us to play a normal defence against the Eagles with their very tall forwards,where the in between player (Darling) unbalanced other sides.

 

[PTpie]

Exactly and I'd like to see it filter through to the supporter base as well. There's been some rationalisation of poor results through age and injuries, but that doesn't exist internally which should be reflected on here.

Ultimately the Buckley megathread shouldn't even be required this year if we're serious about getting back to where we need to be.

I think "rationalization of poor results" is quite harsh. The age of the playing group (read experience, including group cohesiveness) has quite a lot to do with our below expected results. Teams that have 6 - 10 first grade players in rehab (2014) and are in the bottom 6 average age and games played don't perform at a consistently high standard.

Our group has really come together in the last 3 years and I think this season and more likely next we will have significant improvement in our consistency across all metrics for the entire season.

Every team struggles to "maintain the rage" for 7 months. No shame in young guys losing confidence and stumbling as long as there is continual improvement from season to season.

When spring comes everyone is looking over their shoulder for the Magpies!

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

God I hope he plays the whole season

 

[Kappa]

God I hope he plays the whole season

He'll be rested even if he does feel fine.

Making his work load too heavy is how he'll break down again, he will need games off to be at his best for the important ones

 

[PicaBoo]

God I hope he plays the whole season

And also he comes out with the finals statement. FFS can't they wait with that until they are 8-3 . Going to be an anxious season for all of us. Reputations on the line everywhere


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