List Mgmt. Contract, Trade & Draftee Discussion, 2023: Picks 1,20,34,39,53 ,58

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2024 List Changes : Out: Retired- Gaff Delisted - Jones, Trew(R), Baker(R), Witherden, Burgiel, Culley(R), Rotham, L Edwards Traded - Darling (NM) Barrass (Hawthorn) In: Trade/FA acquisitions - Graham (Richmond) Baker (Richmond) Owies (Carlton) Draft - Allan (Pick 16) Shanahan (Pick 30) Gross...
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Resource - 2023 AFL Draft Order

Every trade as it happens!
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Nuffington Post said:
Are players wanting to come home actually a good thing? Tim Kelly trade hasn’t worked out for us. Jackson trade has been awkward for Freo so far and Hogan and McCarthy were disasters. Unless it’s a free agent or someone who won’t cost anything (eg SPS) I doubt it’s worth it.


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I don't mind them throwing their hat in the ring for a homesick player.

But i think if that player is coming off a career best season, as Kelly and Jackson were, then you need to be careful you don't value them based on that trajectory continuing. That might be their ceiling you are seeing and that formline might not continue.

And you have to have an attitude like Port had with us with Rioli. Make them a low ball offer. Tell them to take it or leave it. Not so low as to be ridiculous. But significantly less than then other club wants and what the player would be worth in an open auction. Then stand your ground. Even if the player and his manager crack the s**** and want you to up the offer to make sure the deal gets done. Just give them a pat on the head and some sweet talking and keep holding your ground.

The odds are the other club will cave. And if they don't like it and refuse to deal, or if the player gets antsy and starts fielding offers from other clubs and you miss out then just turn your cards over and walk away. Make sure you know what that walk away point is before you even start negotiating. Don't get tunnel vision. Don't be bothered by the fact that the media might call it a failure on your part if the deal doesn't get done. Go into with a mindset that the deal gets done on your terms or not at all.
 
Nuffington Post said:
Unless it’s a free agent or someone who won’t cost anything (eg SPS) I doubt it’s worth it.


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agree 100%. there’d be plenty more examples of mid-high profile trades backfiring than there would be of them helping to win their new side a flag IMO.

Other than the cost of trading and tying up salary cap, you inevitably have to give them more game time than they might potentially deserve, because of the pressure for the trade to succeed. That then puts more pressure on the player, disenfranchises other players, etc etc.

No trades, no FA, draft guns.
 

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Deplorable trumpster said:
I did say we can count Cole and Duggan as successes.

I would say we lost the Kelly trade in terms of what we gave up for what we got. Clearly lost that trade.

Jetta (who played 75 games for us) was traded for Sinclair (who played 89 games for Sydney). I would call that even stevens. The trade made sense at the time. And we would not undo it if we could go back because Jetta played in a flag for us. But if you take the flag out of it and just look at value for value i would call it even.

Redden was a massive win for us.

Hickey and Vardy were wins. But that was undone in Hickey's case by then giving him away for nothing.


I don't watch the WAFL nor under 18's footy so i have no opinion at this stage on the likes of Bazzo, Burgiel, Barnett, Hewett etc. I take it you do and are more qualified than the rest of us to assess junior level talent. Are you saying (with no rose coloured glasses on) that you think they will be successes for us?


Since you worked at the club maybe you can explain to us the structure of how it works with drafting. I am interested and maybe other posters are too.

So you have your ground level scouts who go and watch the games and write reports and player summaries. How many of those people do you have? Are their salaries counted in the soft cap and so you are limited in how many you can have and/or restricted from head hunting scouts from other clubs by offering them more money?

And then you have somebody at the top (i assume ROB) who gets those reports and makes a final decision tree on who take at what pick if they are available. Is that how it works? Or is it not ROB? Or is it a committee type decision and not one person making the final call?

And who, if anybody, sits between the party that makes the final decision and ground level scouts?
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When I worked for 1 year at the club it was as a part time scout specifically for the SW of WA and that has been where my primary focus was. When you know the area well and have contacts in the area it is not just going to see games and taking scouting notes of the players. I can't speak for others only myself but I also focussed on the relationships of those players, how other people saw them, the good and the bad and that was a key part of my analysis.

Last year working for a different club as previously stated my role was completely different. Whilst I did end up having a key input on the final draft board of the club and that ended up in 3 of the players I was keen on for those positions (the club had parameters of the player types they wanted) my role was almost purely focussed on reasons not to draft players. So working as a scout but primarily to counterbalance how some scouts only see what they want to see in the positives and while i spent 6 weeks in Victoria plus the academy game and the draft half my time was spent watching videos of games and videos of interviews. It is probably best to think of it as a behaviour analysis role. Players, their families and coaches give up a lot of non verbal tells when they are talked to. So a lot was about sifting through what was being said and measuring it against their personality and what their eyes, body and those around them were doing. In regards to the draft board there were a lot of other people involved and a couple of times even without my input what was a reasonably numbered board ended up with names that just had lines put through them. Getting to the draft there were only 20 odd names left on the board for the club. (plus positions to bid if a player was still there)

I was offered a much more senior role in Melbourne but the money wasn't worth it and it didn't suit my current or future lifestyle. Then more recently another more senior role was offered to me but again it meant a lot more scrutiny, partially leading a team and huge hours. With the way the soft cap is now even list managers and head recruiters aren't paid anywhere near as much as people think. There is just not enough money to go round after coaching, S&C and medical departments are checked off first.

The other big thing and this is part of the reason why I think people find it so hard and are very hard judges on recruiting teams is you can't take into account what the AFL are going to do in regards to rules. When you draft a player you aren't drafting them for right then unless it's a mature age player and even then it's very 50/50 even highly regarded ones like Isaac Smith or Tim Kelly. You are drafting for 3-5-8 years into the future. With the AFL constantly changing the rules you could draft perfectly for the way the club wants to play and how they see the game going in the future but with the AFL making such significant and key changes to the rules the roles you are looking to fill can change significantly and the players you select for those roles even if developed perfectly are no longer suitable. They may still make it in modified roles or in different positions but you really are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Just because a player may be able to come in and play a role in their first year, it is not expected for it to be a key role and for them to win that key role against men. Now I haven't been involved in the recruiting of top 3 picks where things are different and expectations are different but it's my opinion and I think it's widely held that even with those top 3 picks, even outstanding guys like Harley Reid or Nick Daicos you aren't expecting them to come in and be stars from day 1.

I am not scouting this year and don't think i'll have a role in footy again as I likely won't be in the country all that much longer but even now whether im watching live, replay or tape im still watching 20 odd hours of junior footy as well as at least 4-5 AFL games a week. Over a 50/50 split of the weekend and first few days each week.

Lastly with the extra 2 teams in the league plus 'homesickness', academies and FS what was potentially a 3 year rebuild plus filling in the gaps as the team builds is IMO a 5 year rebuild. It is what it is.

What looks like a super draft 12-18 months out can become a dud if the players don't continue to develop.
 
WCErevival said:
But how often does it happen though? Kennedy is one example from almost 15 years ago. There aren't many others. Targeting fringe players rarely ever amounts to anything. They usually end up being fringe players in your own team.

Its not really what I'm asking anyway. The original plan was for either Shuey and Yeo to play on an extra year or 2 to over see the youth while they get experienced. Now that we know they cant play midfield anymore its left a bit of a hole with Kelly the only real mid. Ideally we could get someone experienced to help out while the Ginbeys, Hewitts find their feet. Like a Redden.
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I mean, the obvious answer is the bloke who won the Brownlow in 2018.

Ben Keays. Not as talented as Dev. Delisted by Brisbane because "reasons" (see Dev, fringe player behind a stacked idfield). Has 3 consecutive top 5 finishes in Adelaide's BnF. Point is, Keays was brought in to set standards on and off the field at Adelaide and protect the kids while they develop. Now that the kids are taking ownership of the midfield, Keays has been pushed in to a defensive forward role, but still setting standards in his role.

You don't need to trade in a star player. You really just need to trade in a talented player, who can do a job until your own kids are ready to take over.
 
Nuffington Post said:
Are players wanting to come home actually a good thing? Tim Kelly trade hasn’t worked out for us. Jackson trade has been awkward for Freo so far and Hogan and McCarthy were disasters. Unless it’s a free agent or someone who won’t cost anything (eg SPS) I doubt it’s worth it.


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Spot on.

Hit the draft with picks under 35.

Trade for promising young role players with picks over 35. Robertson, Brockman, Darcy Jones, Tunstill,. A maturing ruck on the merry go round, Moyle?

Target one or two FA's over the 3 to 4 years. Maybe an enforcer type now, Matherson Lions is a FA this year.

Build quality via the draft.
 
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briztoon said:
Sydney have a boat load.
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Especially if Longmire is stubborn and sticks to the tried and true we could acquire on the cheap.
Roberts (SA) OOC 2025+ Sheldrick (WA) OOC 2023

Konstanty (VIC) OOC 2024 is another who may find it hard to get a spot in a fwd pocket
 
briztoon said:
I mean, the obvious answer is the bloke who won the Brownlow in 2018.

Ben Keays. Not as talented as Dev. Delisted by Brisbane because "reasons" (see Dev, fringe player behind a stacked idfield). Has 3 consecutive top 5 finishes in Adelaide's BnF. Point is, Keays was brought in to set standards on and off the field at Adelaide and protect the kids while they develop. Now that the kids are taking ownership of the midfield, Keays has been pushed in to a defensive forward role, but still setting standards in his role.

You don't need to trade in a star player. You really just need to trade in a talented player, who can do a job until your own kids are ready to take over.
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Tom Mitchell? He may have taken a couple of years to cement himself but he was best 22 at the Swans when he was traded. Played 19 games in 2015 and every game in 2016 including the grand final.

Keays was a good pick up for Adelaide. Essentially a free hit with a rookie pick.
 
HERE IS A LIST OF WA TALENT THAT I WOULD LIKE ON OUR LIST

ADELAIDE - NO ONE
BRISBANE
JAMES TUNSTILL very good talent not getting a game at a club heavy with midfield talent
I honestly believe he is a much better talent than Devon Robertson
Carlton
Jack Martin is 28 now if you can get him cheap could play a Mark LeCras role not one I would chase to hard
Collingwood
Edward Allan keep a eye him toward the future see how he develops
Ashley Johnston has ability just starting to realise he can impact at this level
Essendon
Nick Martin what can i say should be playing for us now taking that swan district defender in the rookie instead of him was the worst decision
we have done in a while, running machine with a great tank
Geelong - no one
Gold Coast
Jeremy Sharp - another great runner good size now
Will Powell - instant upgrade on our defenders similar to Duggan in style of play just better
Ned Moyle - ruck 21 year old great size and moves well one to keep eye on for a few years
GWS
Sam Taylor 23 years of age and best defender in league god i would love him
Hawthorn
Denver Grainger-Barrass developing defender but at 194cm seems to short and struggles against really tall oponents
Tyler Brockman i love him as a junior and shown good signs at Hawks small forward
Melbourne
Jacob Van Rooyen - great talent has huge leap good hands and loves the physical side he is small as a key forward but
plays a little like jack darling though he has a better leap
Trent Rivers - has moved into midfield now once out of contract should look at Melbourne wont be able to pay what he is worth
Kysaiah Pickett - was a WCE target his draft year until he had to good a season and we couldn't get him is leaving Melbourne at end of season
only 4 clubs in the chase port Adelaide Freo and WCE we should be targeting him is only 21 still most of his family is in wa
Judd McVee - rookie list player has been great like him as a junior taking game on from back half beautiful foot skills would be terrific for our
backline
North Melbourne
Cameron Zurhaar loved him in his under 18 championship and have always watched him, missed the boat signed with north last year
will be free agent when next comes available
Port
SPS- signed up for life at port i think not what we need
Mitch Georgiades - have totally gone of him undersized forward we have Waterman who is better and has better tank
Richmond
Has shit load of WA boys Liam Baker resigned same with Shai both will finish at Richmond
Ben Miller good sized key defender that is improving
Kaleb Smith - one of my favourites was due to play round 1 before injury and is said by Richmond people as one of there most impressive draftee's
in the last few years will miss most of season with foot injury
Saint Kilda - no one
Sydney
Chad Warner - 21 years of age and one of the best mid's in the AFL if not the most damaging currently contest clearance goal kicking mid's don't go on tree's
Logan McDonald - talk has been hasn't adjusted to Sydney lifestyle yet future target for us
Corey Warner - debut recently and looked good
Lachlan McAndrew 22 year old Ruckman heard Dean Cox said give him a couple of years will be a star is 210cm tall
Western Bulldogs
Arthur Jones - small forward looks good prospect liked as a junior
Tim English - talk may wont to come home fills a need for us is still only 25
Aaron Naughton - only 23 great forward
Jamarra Ugle-Hagan has WA family but is a Vic boy, but don't think he would leave bulldogs seems very close to the coach

The two Ruckman are not WA boys and are long term watches but Ruckman tend to leave clubs more than any other player type

​

 
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dinnaz said:
Clear the decks. Im happy to blow up a few contracts and sell guys for 2nd rounders as Ricciuto said.
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Happy to let McGovern chase a big contract elsewhere. He is a free agent and even though he makes us better when playing he is injury prone and we have cover . Might get a 4th or 5th band compo .

Keep Darling who is contracted and still offers a lot and the cupboard is bare after Allen.

Petrecelle may get a late pick .

Rotham I still hold out hope for but tests my patience.

Witherden , foley , west , Clark and xon in a perfect world would be playing most games for the Beagles.

Cripps you would give another year on low pay if he wants it .

Natanui I can't see ever getting match fit again

Gaff trade , trade , trade ... like anyone would want him .

So not much to trade
 

Magpies win race as 212cm dual-sport gun's preferred club​


COLLINGWOOD has won the race for 212cm basketball talent Alex Condon, who has nominated the Magpies as his preferred club as a potential category B rookie signing.

But it will see a unique arrangement for the West Australian talent, who has decided that the Magpies will be his first choice under the rookie rules should his pursuit of an NBA career end.

Condon featured for Western Australia at the under-18 championships in mid-2021 and played for Claremont in the WAFL. He had been projected as a potential early first-round pick at last year's draft given his size and athleticism before deciding on basketball.

DRAFT HUB Click here for the latest draft news

The 18-year-old has accepted a scholarship with the University of Florida for his basketball talents and will forge ahead with that having recently participated in the Australian under-20 junior championships as he focuses on his basketball.

It was there where a number of AFL clubs – including Collingwood, Sydney and Geelong – were in attendance watching Condon, who was eligible for the draft in 2022 but chose later in 2021 to stop playing footy so he could focus on basketball.

https://www.afl.com.au/fantasy
West Coast had also flagged an interest, with Hawthorn also in the mix throughout.

We should of won that race very very annoying
 
McGovern our 1 million dollar player who has done nothing since 2019
Last 4 years of below average performances
Averages a 16 game season this year will be even less
Is not a good on field leader with his sprays to plays on field
Had a good patch of 5 games last year then his form dropped away and then got injured again
He is a Vice captain but shows no obvious leadership
He is 31 turning 32 this year, I honestly don't see the point of keeping him
 
InNicNatWeTrust said:
Young SA prospect that should be on the watch list. Central Districts player who has been in the u17s futures squad. 179cm listed midfielder in great form.
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The build says teenager, the face says 30 year old. Still, the last middle-aged man we drafted from SA turned out OK. Hasn't aged a day either.
 
WCE_phil said:
With the way the soft cap is now even list managers and head recruiters aren't paid anywhere near as much as people think. There is just not enough money to go round after coaching, S&C and medical departments are checked off first.
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I have a huge problem with this.

We have cash reserves of what 60M sitting in the bank doing sweet **** all. Why arent we paying the tax and take advantage!! More development coaches, S&C and recruitment .etc

Its one thing we have in our favour overwhelmingly.
 
Get_The_Gaff said:
Happy to let McGovern chase a big contract elsewhere. He is a free agent and even though he makes us better when playing he is injury prone and we have cover . Might get a 4th or 5th band compo .

Keep Darling who is contracted and still offers a lot and the cupboard is bare after Allen.

Petrecelle may get a late pick .

Rotham I still hold out hope for but tests my patience.

Witherden , foley , west , Clark and xon in a perfect world would be playing most games for the Beagles.

Cripps you would give another year on low pay if he wants it .

Natanui I can't see ever getting match fit again

Gaff trade , trade , trade ... like anyone would want him .

So not much to trade
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If the present crisis has shown the importance of anything then it is the importance of durability of players.

McGovern has been a great player for the club, and was a key component of the 2018 premiership, but currently he is a part time player for us at best. It is debatable whether it’s desirable to retain him on the list at all let alone on a high wage. If he can get a deal somewhere else where we could get a second round compensation pick I would say go for it, otherwise he should only be kept on a minimum short term deal. Just isn’t offering value for money.

Naitanui should not have been signed for two years. If he can’t play this year then we should see how we can pay him out.
There can’t be positions and money invested in players who aren’t playing.

Shuey also has to quit this year. Been a club great but his body can’t do it any longer.

Darling and Hurn are both durable and still making good on field contributions. I would retain them both as on field mentors. Don’t know whether Hurn wants and is able to keep going beyond this year. No disaster if he doesn’t want to.

I don’t know about Gaff. He is durable but is he making an adequate contribution? Certainly wouldn’t be a priority resigning.

I don’t think we’ve got any players that would fetch anything in a trade. Ryan - but he probably wouldn’t want to go.
Can‘t see any other player who would fetch any more than a third round pick. At that low price it’s a matter of whether they’re worth a place on the list or not.

Two other points -

We need some ‘protector’ type players as Yeo showed when he hurt himself. The Dangerfields of the competition should not be able to eye gouge and kick the Ginbeys of our team and get away with it without anyone giving them something back. Players also seem to get up injured after J Cameron tackles them too. We are too soft and nice. Most AFL teams are hard outfits. They bully teams like ours especially without NN and peak Yeo.

What’s with all the ankle injuries? Needs an investigation.
 
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