Cotchin & Martin v Murphy & Gibbs

[Silvagnis]

Versatile or not, by the end of their careers Gibbs will likely turn out to be 4th overall. He just doesn't quite have "it".

What exactly is the "it" that Gibbs doesn't have?

Skill - long kick and doesn't turn it over
Poise - doesn't panic under pressure
Awareness - side steps players in traffic with ease
Pace - has a better change of pace than many give him credit for
Marking - good overhead
Accountability - has played on mids whilst still finding the ball and hitting the score board
Hardness - isn't Robinson, but he's not a squib

I seriously doubt it; being moved from the midfield to half back can be passed off as a tactical move - but it smacks of 'couldn't hack it' when players like Martin prove that 18yo rookies can do it.

I guess that means Heppell won't be able to hack it as a midfielder in the future.

Carlton's backline needed good kicks and decision makers.

Yarran was moved to the backline for similar reasons.

To answer the question, Cotchin and Martin by a freakin country mile - no doubt whatsoever.

We wouldn't swap.

And neither would Richmond.

 

[slimdusty4]

Demanding public apologies on the internet? Really?

He was clearly wrong, has completely ignored it...
Staisfaction is enough though. You are correct in that aspect.

Oh get over yourself and stop whining ..i responded to some tigers nuffy claiming they were hated ..if you don't like it then who cares .

I am not a 'nuffie', and just because you don't hate us, doesn't mean we aren't hated.... You would be hard pressed to find a bulldogs, demons, or crows fan on BF that would 'like' us you.. You... Nuffie!

 

[Jade]

I guess that means Heppell won't be able to hack it as a midfielder in the future.

Who knows? All I know is he is yet to be tried in midfield and pushed back to the HBF.

Carlton's backline needed good kicks and decision makers.

Yarran was moved to the backline for similar reasons.

We wouldn't swap.

And neither would Richmond.

No i'm sure neither would, Carlton giving up Murphy and Gibbs would be a concession.

Murphy, clearly would not be given up.

However 2 against 2, Cotchin and Martin are far more valuable. Give me a choice today as an Essendon fan and it wouldn't take much to point to the Richmond pair.

 

[The Edukator]

Murphy is an elite player. Proven.

Richmond lads are very good young players but are being judged on potential future output and it's not like Gibbs can't improve.

Just can't go past MM

I bet if this was the Richmond pair vs Pendles and Thomas it would massively favour the pies duo and rightly so.

However, the diff bw the blues pair and collingwood is not the large (in pies favour).

 

[Abaddon]

Murphy & Gibbs by the length of the Flemington straight

 

[tazhawk]

Murphy & Gibbs by the length of the Flemington straight

Cotchin and Martin by the length of the Bass Straight.

 

[Roachy8]

What exactly is the "it" that Gibbs doesn't have?

Skill - long kick and doesn't turn it over
Poise - doesn't panic under pressure
Awareness - side steps players in traffic with ease
Pace - has a better change of pace than many give him credit for
Marking - good overhead
Accountability - has played on mids whilst still finding the ball and hitting the score board
Hardness - isn't Robinson, but he's not a squib

I guess that means Heppell won't be able to hack it as a midfielder in the future.

Carlton's backline needed good kicks and decision makers.

Yarran was moved to the backline for similar reasons.

We wouldn't swap.

And neither would Richmond.

Which is exactly why Richmond have played Deledio at half back... & yet the BF accusations of 'can't hack it in the middle' persist...

Carry on folks...

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

A bit like that, except that Murphy played 113 of the next 114 games after his shoulder injury in his first season whilst winning progressively more of his own ball.

All players get injured, but some get more injured than others and that has a value.

Cotchin hasn't had any real injuries in 2 years. He played every game this year and played 17 last year (4 match suspension and a 1 week rest).

I'm pretty sure his injuries had something to do with growth, which should be in the past.

 

[BlueDW]

Very interesting conversation with a friend today. Which pair would you choose to have in your side going forward, Cotchin & Martin or Murphy & Gibbs?

Obviously Murphy is the best performed player out of the four so far by some way, and Gibbs is improving. However, both Martin & Cotchin will more than likely improve at rapid rates.

I am leaning towards the Carlton pair by a very small margin. Thoughts?

My God you are obsessed. Do you ever post anything that doesnt have some sort of reference to Carlton?

 

[telsor]

So to summarise the thread.

Carlton supporters think Murphy & Gibbs are better.
Richmond supporters think Cotchin and Martin are better.

Neutral supporters mostly don't care, and if they do they're dismssed as 'haters'.


Might as well close the thread, it isn't going anywhere.

 

[Blue since 72]

Which is exactly why Richmond have played Deledio at half back... & yet the BF accusations of 'can't hack it in the middle' persist...

Carry on folks...

This statement being used to denegrate HB Flankers has always given me the shits. It's a team game and if the 'team' requires player X to play a position best suited to him and his skill set so be it.

Every team needs Rucks, KPP's, inside players and outside players to get the job done.

Nothing wrong with people having a preference for watching and enjoying one type of player over another (probably has a link to the person's character and/or where they played the game) but to suggest a guy is no good or can't hack it because he's being played in a position that someone considers less valuable than another is crap.

For whats it's worth all four are great players and I'm happy with what we've got but I'd happliy take Cotchin and Martin if Murph and Gibbs weren't around.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

My God you are obsessed. Do you ever post anything that doesnt have some sort of reference to Carlton?

I post about Hawthorn, Collingwood & Essendon more than Carlton. I post about Richmond a lot to.

Why so much anger & hostility about a legitimite thread

I like you.

 

[thecotch]

Gibbs has more versatility than the other 3. He can be a midfielder but he can also play defence and forward and he can play on talls or smalls in an offensive or negating capacity.

We really missed him in the semi. His ability to read and set up play is fantastic and his skills are sublime.

Agreed. Gibb's absence was a huge blow and was the difference in the end. Can go forward and kick goals.

 

[GordonBlue]

As a same age comparison, I dare say the Richmond duo 'win'.

At the same age, both Gibbs and Murphy finished 9th in the Brownlow...

If it wasn't for Murphy's injuries last year, he would have been even further advanced in the game...

Gibbs has become incredibly underrated. He does every job one can ask. Play him midfield, then he'll do what Murphy does. Play him defence and he'll do what Scotland does, play him forward and he'll do what Walker does... he does it all, problem is, he is not allowed to settle.

 

[Heisenberg_]

Which are split one each. Given Gibbs is not in the middle often enough, the clearance stat is to be expected. Gibbs has the advantage in 1%ers (defender role most likely) and Cotchin has more contested possessions. Gibbs has a huge advantage with his disposal efficiency, and in Dream Team points averages but given he has a couple of years on Cotchin, that is fair enough.

Trent Cotchin finished top 10 in the AFLCA award.
That says more then Dream Team points ever will and got us over the line for the win on more then 1 occasion this year.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

What exactly is the "it" that Gibbs doesn't have?

The game-breaking ability that the other 3 have, the others all step up and carry there team over the line when they have too.

Gibbs is a brilliant role-player, can play anywhere and can do it magnificently, but atm that is all he can do, he dosen't have that next gear............much like Deledio in that regard.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Murphy is an elite player. Proven.

Richmond lads are very good young players but are being judged on potential future output and it's not like Gibbs can't improve.

Just can't go past MM

I bet if this was the Richmond pair vs Pendles and Thomas it would massively favour the pies duo and rightly so.

However, the diff bw the blues pair and collingwood is not the large (in pies favour).

Fair comment.

 

[juss]

238 games between Murphy and Gibbs compared to only 107 between Cotchin and Martin.
Is it any wonder they have the runs on the board for the moment?

Murphy and Gibbs have both played over 100 games.
They are in their primes as footballers between that 100-200 game mark.
Murphy is the best at the moment, followed by Cotch, followed by Gibbs, then Martin. That makes sense when you look at age and what not.

However, at same age comparisons, can almost guarantee that when Cotch and Martin reach 100 games each, they will be well in front of where the blues pair were at that stage. Obviously we can't "prove" this, but let's look at the numbers. Cotch has 62 games to catch Murphy, the equivalent of about 2 and a bit seasons. I'd wager he will be an AA by then.

Martin has 69 games to catch on Gibbs. So 3 seasons, again I think it's quite probable in 3 seasons Martin is considered well above what Gibbs was. Hell, the guy is in his second year and he's arguably in the competitions top 40-60 players depending on where your bias is.

Carlton pair right now, due to Murphy's incredible season.
Richmond pair from next year and beyond.
The poll says "moving forward", so I assume that means over the next 5-10 years. I think Cotchin and Martin will be one of, if not the best, one-two midfield combinations in the league. I don't think Murphy and Gibbs will be there, through no fault of Murphy's, I just think Gibbs is that level below the matchwinners that the other 3 are/will be.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

However, at same age comparisons, can almost guarantee that when Cotch and Martin reach 100 games each, they will be well in front of where the blues pair were at that stage.

Cotchin had a chance to put together a better season than Murphy at the same experience level, and IMO, he hasn't yet.

Whilst you could say Martin has had a better season than any of Cotchin, Gibbs and Murphy, controlling for experience.

 

[Lawrst]

Martin is my fav non crows player.

So thats why i picked Cotchin and Martin, I just think that Martin will become a complete freak in due time.

Murphy is a gun and Gibbs is good at everything. I just think that players like Murphy, Gibbs and Cotchin get you to a grand final.


Martin wins them.

 

[teknodeejay]

hang on... jesus baulks, you told me i was crazy if i thought that cotchin would get 15 votes, and mnartin would get 12.

i even bumped the thread, im still awaiting your apology/admission.

Jeepers... who cares what gets said to you on an anonymous forum?

I'm sure mnartin doesn't care either.

 

[teknodeejay]

Carlton don't need Gibbs to be at his best to win games but when he is at his best, he looks great out there. It highlights that Carlton have developed depth and with Judd taking number 1 opponent every week Murphy's game has been able to lift to new heights.

Richmond need Martin and especially Cotchin at their best to win games. If they don't get them some decent support, their two best midfielders in a long time are going to have a career or not much success.

I'd take Cotchin over Martin even with injury concerns. I wonder if Martin has the capability to implode...

 

[HARKER]

I would have thought the Carlton pair, but the poll suggests otherwise.

Fair to say that Murphy is now elite and Gibbs is starting to get there.
Gibbs can give the impression he is not working as hard as others and that's largely becasue he is working smarter.
Can play forward, back, tag and kick goals. Just seemingly needs to get his head knocked around and to spill blood for people to realize just how much of a weapon he is.

The Richmond pair could be anything, but they're not quite there yet.
Chicken and egg scenario: If they play better, will Richmond be the better team or if Richmond as a whole play better, will they be more widely recognized?
Maybe a bit of both.

 

[Top_4_Tiger]

Gibbs vs Martin, in my opinion, is where the comparison tips in favour of the Richmond duo. Judd would be a better advocate.

Cotchin/Murphy are a predictable pair, you know both will succeed. Like for like. Can't separate them on any meaningful measure when controlling for age and experience.

Gibbs is quality, like Deledio, but not on the same level as the others. Martin was compared to Leigh Matthews by the media, which is a sign of his potential. The potential factor also makes him the hardest to judge, as we don't know his true value yet.

A better comparison would be Murphy/Judd vs Cotchin/Martin - I would suspect the uncertainty of the Richmond pair would be too great in this scenario, and until they reach (or don't reach) their potential, the Carlton duo would win the neutral vote by a fair margin.

Judd's age is the only reason anybody might consider the Richmond pair right now, and that would only be if the club was in a rebuilding phase. Perhaps Melbourne, Gold Coast, and North might potentially pick Cotch/Martin over Murphy/Judd for 2012 and beyond, otherwise most teams would select the proven Carlton pair. Bring Gibbs into the equation and the Richmond pair are more appealing - the same way Deledio would slightly lower the standing of the Richmond pair if he replaced either Martin or Cotchin. Doesn't mean Gibbs/Deledio are not key, quality playmakers.

 

[juss]

Cotchin had a chance to put together a better season than Murphy at the same experience level, and IMO, he hasn't yet.

Whilst you could say Martin has had a better season than any of Cotchin, Gibbs and Murphy, controlling for experience.

That's a fair point, and I agree.
Murphy is an out and out gun. Absolutely no issue with admitting he is clearly the best of the four so far. It's Gibbs who I believe will eventually be a level below the other 3. See him as a Deledio type. Ultra consistant, consistantly very good, and an integreal part of the side as a versatile utility type. But it's the other 3 who can almost single handedly drag a your team over the line.

I also agree with you that Martin's first two seasons are clearly the best of the 4, but also, he did come more "ready made" than the others. Can he continue to improve as expected? I think so, fitness and defensive efforts are what he needs to work on most, I don't buy into the theory that he has already "peaked", but I can see the argument that he may be closer to his best than other second year players.

At the end of the day, we're talking about 4 quality players here. And bias aside, the rating of them will probably chop and change over their careers. I just think it's important to acknowledge the fact that games played is one reason the Carlton pair are ahead atm.