Crowds in 2006 - AFL vs NRL

[banzai]

the purpose of this thread was not really to compare NRL crowds to AFL, but to demonstrate to some people the reality than fans are leaving the AFL in droves.

Richmond's membership and crowd figures are up quite a bit and we had a much better start last season

Apart from Essendon and Carlton, which other teams are down?

 

[zero]

What I don't buy is AFL supporters trying to uses invalid excuses like the Comm Games, which should have had no bearing on a massive 3% decrease in attendances.

massive? 3% isnt massive. not after years of growth. its not great but its hardly the end of the world

was it an equivalent downturn to last years growth even? it hardly seems like "people are leaving the game in droves" if attendances are up on 2004 and 2003.

christ i would think that something as simple as the bottom 4 performances of a few big victorian clubs, whose attendances swing by 10s of thousands depending on their success, would see a 3% overall move.

when it approaches 6 or 7% in one year, or after three years of decline then you can worry.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

thanks for digging up an old post

the purpose of this thread was not really to compare NRL crowds to AFL, but to demonstrate to some people the reality than fans are leaving the AFL in droves.

Until the AFL realises this and stops ****ing with the game, they are going to lose a lot of their core supporters.

I don't think it has anything to do with weather though. There are other economic factors affecting attendances of both codes. Rising petrol prices, rising interest rates are all having their effects.

I predict a big swing of fans of both AFL and NRL converting to both soccer and union in the next few years.

What I don't buy is AFL supporters trying to uses invalid excuses like the Comm Games, which should have had no bearing on a massive 3% decrease in attendances.

Fishmonger, vous êtes fou si vous pensez que le football va
rattraper AFL-RL.

Rupture hors d'elle.

 

[Sedition]

.....I don't think it has anything to do with weather though. There are other economic factors affecting attendances of both codes. Rising petrol prices, rising interest rates are all having their effects.

I predict a big swing of fans of both AFL and NRL converting to both soccer and union in the next few years.

What I don't buy is AFL supporters trying to uses invalid excuses like the Comm Games, which should have had no bearing on a massive 3% decrease in attendances.

But if $s are in short supply then buying tickets to the com games puts a bit of pressure on the morgage for a while.

I was thinking about this the other nite. There are always big events. In Sydney you have Sydney to Hobart, Sydney Festival (Jan-Feb), Mardi Gras (not every one that goes to Mardi Gras are gay) (Feb-March), Footy season (Mar-Sept). Add in Fim Festival etc. At the moment we have State of Origin, World Cup and the big game on Sat nite at Telstra. Im getting tired of going to events. This year seems worse than others. This year we have World Cup and Comm Games as well. And the GF wants to go to Circus de Soleil (?). Add in a party or two or three, a concert or two, a movie or two.

This week for example - Footy at SCG last Sat nite, World Cup on Monday morning, State of Origin on Wednesday (or was that the previous Wednesday), exams this week and next week, World Cup on Friday morning, 21st on Friday nite, Telstra on Sat night. I play footy. Im starting to think that I need to spend some time home and with friends other than sports friends.

Not only are they time and energy consuming they also cost $s (travel, food, beer, etc). Meh - maybe im just tired.

 

[Exe Gesis]

I don't believe economy has too much to do with it. Sure, petrol prices are up, etc, but that really isn't an excuse when other sporting events still continue to attract bigger crowds...no excuses are valid. Plus, there's always Rail if a fan is truly a fan, rather than a TV subscriber.

For instance, in the Great Depression days, and just the hard times in early Australia, Bradman's feats were galvanizing a nation, huge crowds attended games, paid games. Likewise, Rugby League during the same period. When the economy was crippling the pockets of people. Same with Prohibition and alcohol/gambling.

During hard times and economic struggles, I believe things of leisure and pleasure significantly rise. Sport, movies, alcohol, prostitution, etc.

There's no excuse for RL getting abysmal crowds in Sydney. It is really mainly Sydney itself that the game is in crisis re crowds.

The already very tribal/suburban nature of the Sydney RL teams I don't see being able to recruit thousands more support for each team. For instance, the Sutherland Shire region would have a certain meagre population, and no likelihood or capability to handle a population explosion. Where are the thousands of extra Sharks supporters going to come from but Sutherland?

The exact opposite exists in Victoria in the AFL. While regional and non-Sydney RL teams (traditionally one-city teams in growing population regions) is always going to show a steady % increase in crowds, support, membership, etc.

What makes it hard for RL in Sydney (and Brisbane) is that the Swans and Lions, as one-city teams, and effectively each home game more of a "special event" type occasion, (esp Sydney), will mean bigger crowds per game than the combined total of all RL Sydney games. Souths v Brisbane gets around 2,000-5,000. That is just not going to fly in Sydney long-term.

 

[zero]

i personally believe that there is something about the fundamental nature of the two games, also.

with the big aerial kicks and marks and 360 degree nature of the game, AFL is a far superior live product than RL.

the best stuff in RL is the fast and close-in tough bodies and quick ball movement, which is mostly lost on attending crowds and only fully appreciated by those watching on TV (or on the big screen replay).

the same can be said for cricket, IMO, as it usually takes until the replay to appreciate a fantastic ball that beats the batsman, otherwise it just looks like a swing and a miss.

that said, i dont believe AR is an inferior TV product to RL, all the action is fantastically captured.

 

[*Crash*]

Dunno Fishy but the Crows fans must like the F*cking with the game as they will next week announce that they are the first club ever to reach 50,000 members.

 

[Refried Noodle]

It's not the game, just the fact that Sydney has a higher proportion of people with the attitude that "There's always something better to do" or "I'll go if everyone else is" than any other city.

Same for the Swans, Waratahs etc and even music acts.

Also the fact that the city road plan is rubbish and public transport isn't the best doesn't help crowd figures for any code.

If I lived in inner Melbourne I'd consider going to neutral games cos it's so bloody damn easy to get to the venues, if I was in inner Sydney I prob wouldn't (If I didn't support the swans etc.).

 

[Exe Gesis]

i personally believe that there is something about the fundamental nature of the two games, also.

with the big aerial kicks and marks and 360 degree nature of the game, AFL is a far superior live product than RL.

the best stuff in RL is the fast and close-in tough bodies and quick ball movement, which is mostly lost on attending crowds and only fully appreciated by those watching on TV (or on the big screen replay).

the same can be said for cricket, IMO, as it usually takes until the replay to appreciate a fantastic ball that beats the batsman, otherwise it just looks like a swing and a miss.

that said, i dont believe AR is an inferior TV product to RL, all the action is fantastically captured.

While what you say is true about RL being a more TV-friendly game, I still don't think that can be ever used as an excuse. People still attend special event RL games (SOO, Tests), RU S14 or Tests get huge crowds. NFL, similar sports, get huge live crowds.

It's not that the product suits TV so much, but that the RL product itself is flawed in my opinion. It is a weaker version of Rugby than Union is. Union effectively takes all the big Forwards and puts them in a maul 95% of the time, and allows the field to be open for attacking Backline play. Rugby is exciting when it features a lot of ball movement. In either RL or RU. However, RU's structure of rules makes this more possible. RL by its current structure, is tedious and IMO illogical. A direct opposite to RU, in that big Forwards are actually the crux of 95% of the play....big lone Forwards hitting the ball up one-out into a wall of big Forwards. There are situations when RU relies on big lone Forwards hitting it up, but due to the nature of RU's rules, (unlimited tackles, release of football immediately upon being tackled), it isn't as prevalent as RL. RL however is illogically devised system of rules that practically forces play to be one-out hit ups due to the limited tackle and the 10-meter rule offering a pocket of space behind the ruck for one-out dummy-half runs, and of course the tug-o-war territorial style that means negative use of the football (minimize mistakes rather than incentives to attack - RU, NFL).

While games like Soccer, AFL, Gaelic, Hurling, Ice Hockey, etc...are for more exciting due to the constant up-and-down nature of the games, I still don't think it is this per se that makes those games popular. NFL is to many a tedious boring game. Stop-start. Much like Test cricket. However, American Football itself, to me, is by far a more exciting rivetting game to watch than AFL a lot of the time.

Cricket, especially ODI's, can be more tedious than Test Matches. Yet they attract huge crowds. 4-5 day cricket used to always attract large crowds, but eventually it lost its whole charm. The modernizing world required a more crowd-friendly game. Times can change the popularity of a sport.

There is a tendency in AFL games that once a team gets on top it's shut the gates. A 6 goal lead is more often the overall winning margin in the end. Meaning that many games just drag on in this stasis of a team that is "definately going to win" vs a team that is "definately going to lose". The Ave winning margin of AFL games is probably around 6 goals. That is a convincing win. Also, there is generally a lack of hard physical action, too much softness creeping in. Too many soft free kicks, and some bad rules as well - like, no push in the back, or no tackling below the knees. AFL games with a team leading by 6 goals early in the second quarter tend to fizzle out with a 'training-practice' atmosphere. A team so on top that opposition players cannot man up and too much space around the ground for uncontested marking and pressure-absent footy.

Soccer generally has a 1-0 scoreline, so every game is winnable and edge-of-the-seat. Even though, again, Soccer is overly soft etc, which detracts from the excitement of the game, there are a lot of aggressive shots on goal back and forth in tight 0-0, 1-0, 2-1 type games.

Basically, every sport has its flaws etc. It's not that AFL is a superior game per se that makes it get 30,000 ave crowds. It's that it is culturally OUR sport for over a hundred years. American Football is traditionally considered a tedious dull sport. However, it's just that it is America's football code that makes it so popular. It's not that Soccer is a better game per se either, it's just that it has always been the rest of the world's football code, built up decades of tradition/passion, that it gets such crowds and interest.

RU, RL, AR, Soccer, NFL...they are all usually boring/stupid to outsiders as much as they are exciting/cool to insiders.

 

[zero]

interesting stuff, gg.

i cant comment (or even really understand) what you said about the rugby codes, but everything else is pretty much spot on. i love sport, and watch soccer (im off to stuttgart tomorrow night for the croatia game!!!!!), cricket, AFL and love a bit of NFL and NBA too.

 

[Exe Gesis]

interesting stuff, gg.

i cant comment (or even really understand) what you said about the rugby codes, but everything else is pretty much spot on. i love sport, and watch soccer (im off to stuttgart tomorrow night for the croatia game!!!!!), cricket, AFL and love a bit of NFL and NBA too.

While you're in Stuttgart, have one for me. Hope you have a great time. Should be a most enthralling occasion. Potentially Australia advancing to the 2nd round = more booze and atmosphere.

 

[Jimthegreat]

thanks for digging up an old post

the purpose of this thread was not really to compare NRL crowds to AFL, but to demonstrate to some people the reality than fans are leaving the AFL in droves.

Until the AFL realises this and stops ****ing with the game, they are going to lose a lot of their core supporters.

I don't think it has anything to do with weather though. There are other economic factors affecting attendances of both codes. Rising petrol prices, rising interest rates are all having their effects.

I predict a big swing of fans of both AFL and NRL converting to both soccer and union in the next few years.

What I don't buy is AFL supporters trying to uses invalid excuses like the Comm Games, which should have had no bearing on a massive 3% decrease in attendances.

Average crowd 2005, a record year 35,696 per game.....average growds after almost 12 rounds 2006, 35,377 per game, easily the second highest ever. All of 319 people difference per game.

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/crowds/summary.html

I think you f@cked up big time and too afraid to admit you're wrong. And that's with the MCG out of commission because of the Comm Games. We don't care if you don't buy it or not because let's face, who cares what you think. You can admit you're wrong or you can continue to keep on with you're argument and look like a goose. You popped off too early after round 1 (like who'd be stupid enough to do that in the first place) and now you've backed yourself into a corner. I suggest you quit while you're behind.

Leaving in droves, now that is funny. All of 319 per game, now that's really in droves!!!

 

[Beckers]

Leaving in droves, now that is funny. All of 319 per game, now that's really in droves!!!

You should know that statistics can say anything that you want them to
If you analyze the statistics a little closer, you will find that the top drawing sides are getting stronger but the rest of the competition is really struggling. If it wasn't for blockbusters involving Collingwood, Adelaide's constant sell outs with its 50k members and West Coast's full houses, the rest of the comp is pretty much on the slide, with some clubs really struggling!.
Will do more research later.........

 

[Jimthegreat]

You should know that statistics can say anything that you want them to
If you analyze the statistics a little closer, you will find that the top drawing sides are getting stronger but the rest of the competition is really struggling. If it wasn't for blockbusters involving Collingwood, Adelaide's constant sell outs with its 50k members and West Coast's full houses, the rest of the comp is pretty much on the slide, with some clubs really struggling!.
Will do more research later.........

Don't think so. Whatever you say about stats, this is easily the second biggest drawing season ever, with still the possibility of being the biggest before the year's out. And that's with 2 of the gun drawing sides on the bottom! Imagine if Carlton and Essendon were flying too, they'd be smashing all records. Adelaide, Collingwood and West Coast will always get big crowds wherever they are on the ladder (the latter 2 though are certainly well up on last year as is Richmond, although Adelaide is slightly down). Each year some big drawing teams are flying, which team it is just changes in cycles. You'll find the crowds are pretty good. Certainly no way anyone could look at the figures and say the crowds are turning away in droves. It would be a ludicrous statement and anyone who says such can only have an agenda.

 

[fishmonger]

Average crowd 2005, a record year 35,696 per game.....average growds after almost 12 rounds 2006, 35,377 per game, easily the second highest ever. All of 319 people difference per game.

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/crowds/summary.html

I think you f@cked up big time and too afraid to admit you're wrong. And that's with the MCG out of commission because of the Comm Games. We don't care if you don't buy it or not because let's face, who cares what you think. You can admit you're wrong or you can continue to keep on with you're argument and look like a goose. You popped off too early after round 1 (like who'd be stupid enough to do that in the first place) and now you've backed yourself into a corner. I suggest you quit while you're behind.

Leaving in droves, now that is funny. All of 319 per game, now that's really in droves!!!

I included finals in my stats those are for home & away only.
2005 = 36,551 avg
2006 = 35,382 avg

What the stats don't show is the general feeling from the games.

More kids are turning up to games, and the AFL is marketing the game to them more and more (think stupid mascot races etc.)

Adults are frustrated with what they see as the death of their beloved game. The AFL may not care about this, but they are the ones who bring the kids along. They don't go by themselves.

More kids coming to the game is great, but what that says is that on any given Saturday, there are less kids playing the game (except for the few token Auskickers who run out at half time).

Those that do play sports while the games are on are more likely to play soccer ...

Overall, while this might be OK news for the AFL and its chestbeating propaganda machine and short-term for a league hanging on by its fingernails, this is devastating news for the code of Australian Football.

Where are our next generation of footballers going to come from ? Not overseas that's for sure.

Full Stop.

 

[Palmer Stoat]

What the stats don't show is the general feeling from the games.

You're scraping the bottom of the barrel now.

 

[Suffolk Lad]

And the kids for the most part play on Sat morning (that includes the soccer kids as well) and go to the games Fri night, Sat Arvo, Sat night, Sunday. Poor argument.

 

[Jimthegreat]

I included finals in my stats those are for home & away only.
2005 = 36,551 avg
2006 = 35,382 avg

What the stats don't show is the general feeling from the games.

More kids are turning up to games, and the AFL is marketing the game to them more and more (think stupid mascot races etc.)

Adults are frustrated with what they see as the death of their beloved game. The AFL may not care about this, but they are the ones who bring the kids along. They don't go by themselves.

More kids coming to the game is great, but what that says is that on any given Saturday, there are less kids playing the game (except for the few token Auskickers who run out at half time).

Those that do play sports while the games are on are more likely to play soccer ...

Overall, while this might be OK news for the AFL and its chestbeating propaganda machine and short-term for a league hanging on by its fingernails, this is devastating news for the code of Australian Football.

Where are our next generation of footballers going to come from ? Not overseas that's for sure.

Full Stop.

Keep rationalising. You're wrong in this case, being the initial thread, and you know it and now you're trying to put the best spin on it possible to make yourself sound good. The figures are there for you. There is very little difference between this year and the big record last year. If the "feeling" in games was sh1t they'd stop coming. Figures don't indicate that. Imagine if the feeling was good, they'd be records upon records, upon records, upon records!!!!

As the other poster said, keep digging the bottom of the barrell will be found soon. Just say it to yourself slow, it's not hard.....say "I was wrong"!

 

[Adnar]

This is not debating the merits of either sport, but I will say that in Sydney there just is not the 'culture' of going to watch live football matches as there is in Melbourne. Even though most people love League and follow it people really aren't compelled to shell out the money every week.

 

[TigerCraig]

This is not debating the merits of either sport, but I will say that in Sydney there just is not the 'culture' of going to watch live football matches as there is in Melbourne. Even though most people love League and follow it people really aren't compelled to shell out the money every week.

True - also the tradition of "membership" including season tickets does not exist in Sydney.

As people have not made a financial commitment, if the weather is dodgy, their team isn't doing well, there are competing attractions etc they will not go to the game.

On the flipside if the weather looks good they may make the decision to go an hour before the game - Sydney people are notoriously late arrivals to events. Having suburban grounds helps here. I often decide to pop down to Brookvale Oval late on the day of the game - its only a 10 minute drive from home.

The Swans crowds tend to hold up even if the weather is dreadful (eg 31,000 at the St Kilda game) because most tickets are prepaid. The only reason I went to that game - not being a season ticket holder - was that my son was playing half time Auskick.

 

[*Crash*]

According to fishmonger your kid would be one of the "the few token Auskickers who run out at half time".

 

[Sedition]

I don't know about that - Swans are around the 30 000 paid members. I go to all the games and it appears to me sumtimes that its the members area that is sparse and the Hill is reasonaable full. Seems a lot of members pay for their tickets (hoping for a final series) and don't show coz of other attractions in town. Mates and buys Swans members even thought we have SCG members and get in to all the SCG games on those.

In Syd because of the drier milder weather, except these last coupla weeks, there is heaps of stuff to do other than go to SCG.
Please don't start a 'our weather is better than your weather' argument.

 

[TigerCraig]

According to fishmonger your kid would be one of the "the few token Auskickers who run out at half time".

That's him

Played a blinder too - 14 kicks, 3 marks, 1 goal 2 behinds (1 was a poster). Not bad in a 10 minute game

 

[Hoops]

I disagree that Sydney supports RL as much as Melbourne supports AF. I would as a rough guess say that Sydney has about 50% of the rate of support compared to Melbourne. If you take into account that Sydney has about 20% more in population, than that means Sydney only has 60% of overall support for RL in Sydney compared to AF in Melbourne.

With the Ave NRL game in Sydney this year drawing 14,599 and AFL in Melbourne 40,928 still shows that AFL supporting Melbournians are still a lot more likely (65% -70% more) to go and watch the game live.

 

[fishmonger]

I disagree that Sydney supports RL as much as Melbourne supports AF. I would as a rough guess say that Sydney has about 50% of the rate of support compared to Melbourne. If you take into account that Sydney has about 20% more in population, than that means Sydney only has 60% of overall support for RL in Sydney compared to AF in Melbourne.

With the Ave NRL game in Sydney this year drawing 14,599 and AFL in Melbourne 40,928 still shows that AFL supporting Melbournians are still a lot more likely (65% -70% more) to go and watch the game live.

You just don't get it do you genius.

Gawd, if some of these Melbourne nuff nuffs actually immersed themselves in NSW or QLD culture they'd realise that it is not about crowd figures at all.

You can't just sit in Melbourne and make estimates like this based simply on NRL crowd figures.

It is a deep-rooted cultural thing that goes all the way from anti-VIC attitudes to workplace footy tipping.

We have club memberships. They have club pokies, cheerleaders and TV.

Chalk and Cheese.