Crypto Sponsorship for the AFL - and now NFTs

[Chief]

If you or anyone you know needs help:​

• Lifeline on 13 11 14
• Kids Helpline on 1800 551 800
• Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636
• Suicide Call Back Service on 1300 659 467
• Headspace on 1800 650 890
• ReachOut at au.reachout.com
• MensLine Australia on 1300 789 978
• Care Leavers Australasia Network (CLAN) on 1800 008 774
• Head to Health at headtohealth.gov.au

 

[Chief]

Are you sure you want to get into a debate between the benefits of bitcoin and gold, Chief?

No - that's not what this is.

Gold is not the argument. It is an example.

All of the above is a bit of a red herring from what I can see.

 

[HairyO]

Are you sure you want to get into a debate between the benefits of bitcoin and gold, Chief? Let's break it down using the foundational properties of money:

DURABILITY:

• Bitcoin is purely digital, so as long as the internet is around, it is more durable than any physical asset.
• Winner: Bitcoin

PORTABILITY:

• No other payment system in the world can move the amount of value, for as cheap, as digital money. Billions of dollars worth of bitcoin can be moved in minutes for less than a several dollars, without trusting anyone or giving anyone control over it.
• Winner: Bitcoin

Gold doesnt rely on anything to be around. How can something which relies on something else be more durable?

For portable, one of the big complaints about crypto is the transaction costs, yet you are saying that you can shift billions of dollars for a tiny amount of money. So all the claims about crypto transaction costs are wrong?

 

[BIRDBRAIN]

If I told 5 poor people and 5 rich people that I made a bunch of money in defi which group of people do you think would be the angriest? It'll be the rich people for sure. Money is power and the rich see crypto as a threat to their power and status. The absolute last thing the wealthy want to see is poor people making money in their sleep like they do. They want you to slave and beg for it or loan it from some dumb aussie bank and spend the next 30 years slaving to pay it back.

 

[Chief]

Nobody is angry you made money.

 

[BIRDBRAIN]

Nobody is angry you made money.

Are you really sure about that?

 

[Chief]

Are you really sure about that?

I'm sure someone, somewhere in the world is. Do you know their name?

 

[BIRDBRAIN]

I'm sure someone, somewhere in the world is. Do you know their name?

Let's just wait here in this thread, I'm sure they'll be posting soon and we can make note of their usernames.

 

[Chief]

PORTABILITY:

• No other payment system in the world can move the amount of value, for as cheap, as digital money. Billions of dollars worth of bitcoin can be moved in minutes for less than a several dollars, without trusting anyone or giving anyone control over it.
• Winner: Bitcoin

Let's take this point, though.

Or, it's several points really. You've mixed in security and price and 3rd party control.

The way I see it:

Crypto simply isn't as fast as a currency market trade. They happen instantly at a small price. Large currency transactions - including traceability and security - happen every second of every day across the world between banks.

To personally send 1 million $US to you, I have to transfer from my bank into the exchange. Are these always trustworthy? Didn't MTGOX steal a massive amount of it from their customers?

Then buy the Bitcoin, paying fees.

Then send it, paying fees.

Then you have to trade it back out for new money coming into the system. Paying fees.

All of this with a steep energy overhead.

Who is transferring billions of dollars of Bitcoin? Apart from scammers and hackers, who is transferring more than hundreds of thousands in a single trade?

 

[Chief]

(I'm going back and forth from something else I am doing so my posts aren't in any real order of importance and I'mm not likely to cover every point. I should do this another way but I might not get back to it.)

DURABILITY:

• Bitcoin is purely digital, so as long as the internet is around, it is more durable than any physical asset.
• Winner: Bitcoin

Yes: but not in your hands. To keep its value it requires people to want to buy it. If there were no buyers on any of the exchanges you would get zero dollars out. If miners closed down, you can't trade it.

Gold: If there are no buyers you still have a useful metal. For there to be no takers for gold, the entire electronics industry would have to be dead. The entire Indian wedding season would have to stop. So before gold is worth nothing, we have probably had some sort of apocalypse. For bitcoin to die, it means nothing to the economy, manufacturing and so on.

 

[LongBombFromOutside50]

(I'm going back and forth from something else I am doing so my posts aren't in any real order of importance and I'mm not likely to cover every point. I should do this another way but I might not get back to it.)



Yes: but not in your hands. To keep its value it requires people to want to buy it. If there were no buyers on any of the exchanges you would get zero dollars out. If miners closed down, you can't trade it. Gold: If there are no buyers you still have a useful metal. For there to be no takers for gold, the entire electronics industry would have to be dead. The entire Indian wedding season would have to stop. So before gold is worth nothing, we have probably had some sort of apocalypse. For bitcoin to die, it means nothing to the economy, manufacturing and so on.

Funny because there are lots of people wanting to buy my bitcoin for $36,000 usd as we speak.
Given the inflationary trends of fiat currency, there will always be demand for a deflationary digital asset that people can self custody. History has proven this. Bitcoin has never gone to zero despite many crypto haters and traditional banks claiming that it will.
Also more than half of the demand for gold is driven by investment purposes, as opposed to manufacturing.

Let's take this point, though.

Or, it's several points really. You've mixed in security and price and 3rd party control.

The way I see it:

Crypto simply isn't as fast as a currency market trade. They happen instantly at a small price. Large currency transactions - including traceability and security - happen every second of every day across the world between banks.

To personally send 1 million $US to you, I have to transfer from my bank into the exchange. Are these always trustworthy? Didn't MTGOX steal a massive amount of it from their customers?

Then buy the Bitcoin, paying fees.

Then send it, paying fees.

Then you have to trade it back out for new money coming into the system. Paying fees.

All of this with a steep energy overhead.

Who is transferring billions of dollars of Bitcoin? Apart from scammers and hackers, who is transferring more than hundreds of thousands in a single trade?

When you Make a currency transaction, your broker has custody of your currency. If I send bitcoin to someone, they themselves get custody of it. Not someone on their behalf.

That may not be such an issue in Australia, but speak to people from other countries around the world, where their money in the bank (that they believed was safe) has been seized for political reasons. This has happened on multiple occasions in history. Dare I say I'm pretty sure it's happened on more occasions than crypto exchanges have stolen from their customers.

 

[LongBombFromOutside50]

Gold doesnt rely on anything to be around. How can something which relies on something else be more durable?

For portable, one of the big complaints about crypto is the transaction costs, yet you are saying that you can shift billions of dollars for a tiny amount of money. So all the claims about crypto transaction costs are wrong?

Depends on which blockchain you're using, whether it's congested, etc. Some blockchains have gas fees (think of them like transaction costs) for less than 1c (in usd terms)

 

[Sic Doge]

This chief guy sure knows his crypto. I guess he thinks that fiat he earns weekly is actually worth something

 

[Kram]

Nobody is angry you made money.

Although massively different of course still reminds me a lot of the tech boom and bust.

 

[LongBombFromOutside50]

Although massively different of course still reminds me a lot of the tech boom and bust.

Yeah what a huge bust it’s been

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Chief]

More fun stuff on the NFT market manipulation by rich people.

 

[Chief]

When you Make a currency transaction, your broker has custody of your currency. If I send bitcoin to someone, they themselves get custody of it. Not someone on their behalf.

That may not be such an issue in Australia, but speak to people from other countries around the world, where their money in the bank (that they believed was safe) has been seized for political reasons. This has happened on multiple occasions in history. Dare I say I'm pretty sure it's happened on more occasions than crypto exchanges have stolen from their customers.

What happens with hard forks?

From what I can see, it can wipe out trades and leave people in a walled garden they have to trade out of? The potential is there to break everything, again from what I can see.


This is just stuff I see day to day.

Staking as a ponzi scheme?



Spends a billion bucks on ads, then cuts advertised rewards. The CRO locked into staking for 6 months drops by 50%.

Great partners for the AFL. I hope they got paid up front for the stadium rights and ads all over the place.

 

[Chief]

So: Play to Earn.

Another way for rich people to entice poor people to work for them. The rich people buy NFTs and lease them to poor people on unfavourable terms.

What other play to earn models are there? I'm interested in finding out because it seems like a scam.



If it's a fun game, everyone is going to play it, so you're not earning much.

If it's not fun, you're going to earn a fair bit due to rarity, but there will be no-one to buy the rewards off you.

Axie sounds like a funny story - play to earn system that lost $600 million or something to people who hacked them and changed the smart contract code, siphoning all the crypto from their wallet.

"Runescape Gold is a more stable virtual currency than some actual cryptocurrencies."

 

[Kram]

Yeah what a huge bust it’s been

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Never, ever underestimate the greater fool until the music finally stops.

 

[Chief]

Apparently a crypto dude accidentally describes a Ponzi scheme, and accuses the boomers of not understanding that this is how the world works now:

 

[Chief]

Yeah what a huge bust it’s been

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wait where is this image from? 2017? With no dates on this time series?

Bitcoin - and I know it's not the only big token - is at about half it's peak:

 

[Scotland]

You don't buy wheat futures or heavy machinery with gold bullion either. You don't buy them with apple stocks either. This is where newbies fall into the circular logic, they just can't get passed the 'currency' bit in the name. I couldn't care less if I can buy a cup of coffee or a tractor with bitcoin or not. Crypto is never going to replace fiat, the value of crypto goes up BECAUSE it is priced in fiat which is printed by central banks at a meteoric rate. Bitcoin and Ethereum are scarce assets backed by vast and powerful computer networks, they aren't printed out by governments and given out to all and sundry and they cannot be controlled or stopped by governments without using extreme measures.

So if it is outlawed to exchange crypto assets for govt printed fiat, what is the value of the crypto assets?

 

[Scotland]

Great partners for the AFL. I hope they got paid up front for the stadium rights and ads all over the place.

Firepower 2.0.

 

[BIRDBRAIN]

So if it is outlawed to exchange crypto assets for govt printed fiat, what is the value of the crypto assets?

Outlawed by which country? They'd either go up or they would go down mate, like any other day LMAO. Same could be said for gold bullion, which has been made illegal for private citizens to own in various countries in the past. The fact it was made illegal didn't make it right and it didn't mean it retained zero value either.

 

[Scotland]

Outlawed by which country? They'd either go up or they would go down mate, like any other day LMAO. Same could be said for gold bullion, which has been made illegal for private citizens to own in various countries in the past. The fact it was made illegal didn't make it right and it didn't mean it retained zero value either.

Any country. All countries. It's a hypothetical. If you live in Australia then any currency except Australian dollars isn't useful. Sure you can easily exchange USD, GBP, EUR etc. to AUD but you can't go into a shop without some mechanism to purchase in AUD be it cash or card. It doesn't matter how many BTC or ETH or any other crypto one has, without some facility to exchange it for the worthless fiat I've been hearing for years it is superior to it is both worthless and useless. I don't think this is new or controversial information.

I've heard every circular argument why crypto is great (or not) but ultimately it's still just a mechanism for people to make money out of thin air. Which as I've said many times is fine, just call it what it is - which you seem happy to. The worst thing about crypto other than the environmental impact is the bullshit arguments. It's better than fiat because fixed supply and decentralised and it's just like gold and... fiat is just worthless paper and 1s and 0s on computers... Please. As you said, forget the 'currency' part. It's just an asset class now. Buy asset, asset goes up in value, sell asset.

Your post says "the value of crypto goes up BECAUSE it is priced in fiat which is printed by central banks at a meteoric rate". This is true, but the same can be said of most investments and consumer products. Rampant inflation isn't the reason Bitcoin has gone up 1500% in 5 years. If you'd invested your money in ETH a year ago you'd have around 2/3 of what you started with. Not what I'd call a hedge against inflation given banks have been consistently printing money the whole time. Sure you could've bought at the lowest point and made money, but it's the volatility that attracts people, not stability of returns.

 

[Kram]

If you are a good trader and you can make a few bucks speculating on cyrpto then all the power to you but anyone that has large % of their capital parked there that they can't really afford to lose is a complete idiot imo. A lot of people will get burned one day and just like usual it will mostly be the smaller holders left carryig the bag.