Opinion Culture at Collingwood

[Saintly Viewed]

Tarks and Maxy used to run a PT session at the Lexus Centre (back in the day) which was subsequently helped out by Ryan Cook, Danny Stanley and Sam Iles. The five of them would take us through the paces like any other player (even if it wasn't for footy and just fitness in general).

Had the opportunity to get to know them reasonably well over the course of training over 3 years. Tarks is extremely professional, very proud and doesn't take half-arsed efforts or attitudes very well. He's no joker, he's just a down-the-line person who is there to be the best he can. He has Maxy's no-nonsense approach to calling out poor decision making.

All the sniping over him over the years is completely ridiculous and to suggest the boys don't respond to him or Rocca is just a bag of fertiliser. He's well respected throughout the club and not just for his glory days as a 2-time-Grand-finalist but for his continued dedication to his job.

That there is a changing of the guard at Collingwood is completely evident - yes, we're more serious and less larrikin. The personalities are different. Some kids respond, some don't. TBH I support this culture change. Hard work first, fun later. Even 'Bad Boy' Swanny was one of the hardest trainers at the club, he wasn't a club champ because he could tell a few jokes.

Fantastic post.
Loved the Tarkyn information.
Much appreciated

 

[Anzacday]

On Tarrykn just to clarify Ive heard he is one of the nicest blokes you could ever hope to meet. When he was coaching the VFL side in terms of addressing the group I thought he was well below the standard required at that level. But thats my opinion others may differ.

I have no doubt he would be respected as a person of collingwood as would Rocca but are they the best people for that Role. Not from what I have heard.

Wholeheartedly agree.
He may well be good one on one though.

 

[No SPIN]

If you don't want people to defend themselves when you try and twist their words then don't post.

You seem to want to argue every single point someone raises about Buckleys ability as a coach. It appears as though you cannot except some people are not satisfied with where the club is at right now.


For instance I have repeatedly explained that I believe a weakness of Bucks is to provide the level of support to match the level of expectation. I said because he is regarded as not being that approachable and struggles in building relationships with many players. I have not suggested it is unique to bucks and yet your right this- How you can then try to suggest this is UNIQUELY an issue with Bucks when it applies everywhere, is just wrong.

As for the VFL Ive given my reasons. IF you think Lockyer and Roccas are the right people for the development roles in the VFL then good for you.

You said you don't "give a rats" about the VFL that is not an explanation or reason.

Now you are forced to admit that the relationship issue is not Unique to Bucks, and that other coaches would be the same.
That makes the issue irrevelant to your perceived concerns about the our coach, as the same problems exist at other clubs.
And most importantly a change of coach may not see this problem change.

Therefore if you believe its a failing in Bucks, its a failing in many other coaches and clubs.

Maybe you are just stating a GIVEN in AFL, that is, do the right thing and you'll have a good relationship with the coach.

Finally, people here have wanted Bomber as a possible replacement - when Heppel was asked on AFL360, what he thought of Bomber he said " I didn't have much to do with him, I was actually at bit scared of him".

Do we now run around and say Bomber is a sh?t coach?

PS: Don't confuse my questioning your post, as anything more than understand the true facts - as I did yesterday with your Mad Monday comments.
Which had to do with the players not Bucks.

 

[CFC2010]

Not to go back to old stuff but it took 10 years to get there, the drums started beating after one year this time.

But do agree, something needs to be done and but I don't have the same confidence that you do that it will all come from Allen's influence.

Can he do anything about Pert and Eddie? I think Admin and the board appear too comfortable and the fact that they haven't spent the money needed in the football department that a club like GWS has then that is one of the first things I would have on the agenda. Pay the bloody tax!

It actually took 20 years to get there again Maggie.

Gubby helped deliver us a Premiership in 1990 (took a couple off us...the bastard ) its time he got us "some" more again!

That's what he is here for.

 

[No SPIN]

Why can't their be room for both. Serious and Larrikin? Good organisations will make room for both.

Did Swanny love the club over the last few years like he did the 10 years before this? I don't think so

So if swanny was 23 and the club was where he is at now would we have kept him? Im not sure.

We traded ONE "Larrikin" in Shaw - how we continue this myth that we need to tolerate "larrikins", as if we have traded out half a dozen "larrikin" stars, is difficult to understand.

 

[Vicky Park]

Hi ant22

I've seen you post about not intending to start this thread. Just to clarify, we mods sometimes start a new thread using someone else's post in another thread. It's a rare occurrence, but we do it if we think the topic is thread-worthy.

Yesterday I saw your OP post in the trade thread, and the volume of responses it generated. I pointed that out, and I think Magpie Girl then started this thread with your post and dragged some other posts across.

It is an important topic, and being discussed on here rationally and intelligently, without descending into the usual pro or anti Bucks camps. That in itself I think justifies what we did.

So I hope you don't mind, and we are all the better for the discussion.

 

[noideaatall]

I believe it is different in an elite sporting club, especially in team sports. The time is short and limited. You cannot compare it to working life.
You should have a few good friends as it certainly makes the team function better.

If you looked at motivation in the workplace relative to age the findings would likely be the younger employees are, the more important their connection to workmates and a sense of belonging/team. For young single AFL footballers, where the level of participation/dedication required makes it more a lifestyle than 40hr per week career choice I suspect relationships with their peers and the club in general would be even more important. Irrespective for pretty much anyone the workplace is much improved if you are surrounded by friends rather than people you have little connection or in common with.

 

[Lefthanded]

If development of VFL players is an issue, why have guys like Phillips, Wills, Marsh and Crocker (who have all spent significant time in the VFL) come into the senior side and contributed while looking promising for the future?

IF Rocca & Tarks are poor group coaches they could be good one on one or development of the players you mentioned could be due to others like Rivers or Tapping. Could also be the drive of the individuals or that they fit 'the Buckley mould' better and thus get more time with senior coaches.

Hard to know for sure from the outside.

 

[Collingwoodity]

Definitely agree on the Pendles thing though. The Captain of our once great club should most definitely have been supporting and advising the boys on our list... during their VFL finals tilt.

Especially for Caff.

I would love a new Captain.

FWIW... i wish it was Adams.

Am I also correct in confirming that Ryan Pendlebury (Scott's brother) played in the VFL preliminary final and Scott did not remain in Australia to see it?

 

[noideaatall]

To tell you the truth, I have stopped reading Collingwood stories in both the Age and The Sun, am getting a little bit over it as unlikely to be a 'good' Collingwood story. Not surprised though that if she deflected, her club is a rabble.
I wonder what the solutions are to get back to some sort of normality?
What can the club do? Is it time for Eddie to step down, put stricter timelines and strong KPI's for Buckley?
We have already replaced one assistant coach which I think could be good, any others from the VFL? Promote Tapping (does he want it?).

Bottom line is Eddie hasn't done anything definitive that suggests he might not be the right President for the pies at this point in time. The serious questions really come out of our onfield results in the AFL and the belief, by some at least, that he is committed to Bucks beyond what is reasonable. There may be a strict timeline and strong KPE's for Bucks right now but, understandably, they are not in the public sphere. In terms of change maybe we should be wary of wholesale changes until 2017 is played out. I suspect this is the line in the sand year for the club and if we fail to deliver solid results on field I suspect there will be a change of coach. This would be a better time to wipe the slate clean and give the new coach an opportunity to surround themselves with assistants of their choice. Pert and Eddie will no doubt be under pressure but, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater, the best approach might be this will set a time limit to their positions and change will come about in a smooth manner.

 

[CFC2010]

Am I also correct in confirming that Ryan Pendlebury (Scott's brother) played in the VFL preliminary final and Scott did not remain in Australia to see it?

Correct.......but in Scott's defense he didn't miss much on Saturday.......I think the whole VFL team was on holidays

 

[Krueger]

Does anybody now care of the antics of past players? All we remember were that they were gun players who delivered us a premiership which is what its all about. Whats the point of being surrounded players who bust their guts but are not good enough? The culture we had was a winning culture and the players played for one another. Different story these days maybe.

 

[Hardas]

Actually have been to the middle and have heard them both speak, wouldn't inspire me very much and I am one of those self motivated people.
Think they have been there too long.
Need a 'refresh'.

Absolutely.
(Both 'nice blokes', BTW).

 

[Hardas]

On Tarrykn just to clarify Ive heard he is one of the nicest blokes you could ever hope to meet. When he was coaching the VFL side in terms of addressing the group I thought he was well below the standard required at that level. But thats my opinion others may differ.

I have no doubt he would be respected as a person of collingwood as would Rocca but are they the best people for that Role. Not from what I have heard.

Same.

 

[MyManLynch]

Am I also correct in confirming that Ryan Pendlebury (Scott's brother) played in the VFL preliminary final and Scott did not remain in Australia to see it?

Maybe he was in Europe with Chris?

Edit- Maybe Ryan should have been in Europe as well...

 

[Helfarch]

What precious little flowers football clubs seem to be full of.

 

[Lefthanded]

***MOD EDIT: OP BROUGHT ACROSS FROM TRADE THREAD***

I have a team of people I manage. If they are unhappy I try and find a solution but more important than that I do whatever I can to create a culture where they are happy. It costs me and the business I run alot of money if I have high staff turnover. The number 1 thing I can do to run a profitable business is to keep my staff happy so they stay.

If I had the attitude if your not happy then go work somewhere else i would not be making a cent.

What If I told you that the pies have a player welfare manager. He works closely with 1st year players in trying to get them settled. First year players get allowances for relocation etc(I believe part of the EBA) I can tell you for a fact that late last year first year players were still chasing moneys owed with this welfare manager. The money should have been paid at the start of the season. What sort of example does this send to people joining an organisation.

What if I told you that last year a senior play organised a function that raised a lot of money to fund their mad Monday celebrations. On the day of the mad monday celebrations only 10 players turned up and only a few of them were senior players. The player who organised this function did not show up because he was too hungover. The few senior players who did show up were very P1ssed off and unhappy with their senior team mates. Williams was once of the few to turn up. Id be pretty confident that at todays mad monday celebrations for the hawks most if not all of list will who up. What does this tell you about the senior leadership in the playing group? This might not seem like much to most but it is the type of thing that can help culture or damage culture.

What If I told you there are young players at that club who feel like they do not know bucks at all. I know Richardson at the saints makes time to sit down with every player on the list once a week during the season. Is this happening at Collingwood and if not, why not?

I have absolutely no doubt that the club has major issues in keeping players happy and developing player relationships.

I just hope Gubby recognizes this and fixes it because I fear Eddie has lost the ability to be objective when he so desperately wants to be proven right with the current coaching situation.

Thanks for sharing, I think it is a good post, your heart is in the right place and I too have concerns about where CFC is at and where they might be going, but, that said I hope you don’t mind if I also share the following:

1. Number 1 thing probably better described as keep staff who are performing well happy and try to improve performance of the rest and develop all of them to their potential. I agree there are at least some signs this isn’t optimal at CFC but am sure you would concede it’s not necessarily the easiest task. Could I do it better – probably not as people skills are not my strength.

2. Turnover in footy club (max of 10 to 15 year working life for most) is expected to be higher than other industries where it can be 40+ years. Thus emphasis is not just on minimizing turnover but managing it.

3. Welfare manager story is deeply concerning if true. I do however question whether it’s likely to be a major issue for CFC last year given a quick read of the CBA confirms most if not all allowances are relocation related and our 1st year players were JDG, Moore, Maynard, Goodyear – all of whom were from Melbourne clubs (Oakeigh x2, Sandringham, Calder Cannons) so relocation costs I imagine would be minimal. I apologise I didn’t look at our rookies. 3 of those 4 players this year played regular senior footy and I doubt have any major issue with the club.

4. Mad Monday last year – concerning turnout but post 38 suggests not a problem this year so at least things are improving

5. Young players not knowing Bucks at all – not ideal but when I did some maths, 5 minutes with each of 46 players would be nearly 4 hours of Bucks weekly time without factoring in scheduling issues and I have doubts 5 minutes is sufficient to develop /maintain sufficient working relationship. Questions I would ask are more:

a) Does Bucks work to his strengths / make efficient use of his time? (I’d suggest it’s more efficient to focus (in rough order) on relationship with other coaches, player leaders, best 22, rest of list with some variation as new and developing players may need more time than a Tooves or Caff.)

b) Does Bucks have someone else to cover his weaknesses and help him improve them, be it assistant coaches or player welfare managers, player leadership team, unofficial leaders (be they senior players or young, developing leaders)?

c) Does Bucks have an open door (or similar) policy so those with an issue can approach him if needed or seek help from someone else who can bring it to his attention?

d) Does he make at least some time for everyone (jackcass post 92 suggests yes)

e) Does Bucks tailor his approach to different players eg might be useful to invite LTIs like Shaz or Ramsay to sit in coaches box on game day every now and then to involve them and give them different insights plus ask their feedback but I doubt Swanny would benefit much /care for doing this.

f) Is constructive and timely feedback provided by a coach to players as to why they are dropped / not getting senior games? (Squeaky wheel needs the most oil)

g) Does someone at CFC try to assess what suits each player best in terms of contact with senior coach, assistants, leadership group, other players? Eg What works for Cloke, Howe or Varcoe would probably be different to a perceived quieter player like Broomhead. Extroverts would more naturally build relationships and important thing is every player feels they belong or are connected. Friendships eg Shaz & Aish or JDG & Moore aid this.

6. 100% agree that I hope Gubby improves things and can challenge Ed & Pert where needed as well

7. Most important indication of club health is on field performance and at least results in 2nd half of this year suggest improvement in this regard. If culture was too bad it would have been easy for on field performances to have majorly sucked the whole year after a poor start. Being able to turn around some poor early results can’t have been easy and gives me reasonable hope that 2017 and beyond will be better.

Many of the questions I posed here can’t be answered by someone outside the club but I hope give some food for thought and a framework to assess information we might hear through contacts, in the media or internet. Bucks wasn’t ready made for the job when he took it on – that is why the likes of Eade & Balme have been there to provide support and development for him too.

 

[Lefthanded]

Maybe he was in Europe with Chris?

Edit- Maybe Ryan should have been in Europe as well...

I'm guessing you mean Kris but he was likely supporting Alex.
Could also be that our captain who we know was in the backline early due to playing through injury and was perhaps below our lofty expectations for much of the year travelled to Europe for a combined holiday / visit to injury specialist?

 

[Maggie5]

visit to injury specialist?

Funny you should post that as I thought that too.

 

[Brad Goodman]

Maybe he was in Europe with Chris?

Edit- Maybe Ryan should have been in Europe as well...

Kris played and won an EFL grand final on Saturday, Scott wasn't at that either.

What a terrible captain/brother...

 

[Lefthanded]

As I said, hard work at the moment with rumours of trading in players at the end of their careers on high salaries and long (IMO) contracts.

Be nice if the club came out and made a statement as to our recruiting strategy.

I haven't watched it yet but http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/video/2016-09-13/members-forum-hine-looks-ahead may partly address your 2nd point.

Personally I'm not too worried about rumours about any of Wells, Mayne, Maric or NDS and would even look at Boomer as his 2016 was still pretty good. Would you want all 5? No, but given we've lost Swan, Caff & Tooves, will almost certainly lose Cloke and rumours suggest others like Witts and Williams, whilst Brown, Broomhead, Blair and probably others remain unsigned it would (IMO) be ludicrous to not look at adding some experience to an already young list, especially if the experience doesn't require a trade. I will wait to see actual contract lengths before getting upset but hope that guys over 30 are short term or with appropriate clauses.

 

[Lefthanded]

Kris played and won an EFL grand final on Saturday, Scott wasn't at that either.

What a terrible captain/brother...

Obviously decided he couldn't play favourites between Kris & Ryan so left the country. Not sure when he will be back but what if he was planning to be back to support the VFL guys in the GF?

 

[noideaatall]

..
5. Young players not knowing Bucks at all – not ideal but when I did some maths, 5 minutes with each of 46 players would be nearly 4 hours of Bucks weekly time without factoring in scheduling issues and I have doubts 5 minutes is sufficient to develop /maintain sufficient working relationship. Questions I would ask are more:
...

Good post.
I just want to point out that your average teacher has around 30 pupils in their class.. Numbers depend on school and level (primary/secondary). A primary teacher down here in Tas will need to have a close relationship with a class of 20/30, plus know by name, family and have a general concept of 150/300 pupils, damn good one of their immediate class. A secondary will need to know by name far more and have a good understanding of every child they teach, which may go over 100. By understanding I am referring to ability to provide an accurate assessment of them on an individual level as well as their work. Note that is part of far wider daily duties like preparing and delivering classes. In all cases the ability to engage and create the impression of a personal relationship is paramount. Teachers are not, in general, the cream of the crop and certainly not in the league of a top AFL coach. I have a fair degree of experience in working with groups of youth and people and it is not that hard. My point is, despite your maths if Bucks cannot make a personal connection and make every single one of those 46 players feel he is aware, deeply concerned and focused on them then he needs to find a new career.

 

[Magpie Girl]

Hi ant22

I've seen you post about not intending to start this thread. Just to clarify, we mods sometimes start a new thread using someone else's post in another thread. It's a rare occurrence, but we do it if we think the topic is thread-worthy.

Yesterday I saw your OP post in the trade thread, and the volume of responses it generated. I pointed that out, and I think Magpie Girl then started this thread with your post and dragged some other posts across.

It is an important topic, and being discussed on here rationally and intelligently, without descending into the usual pro or anti Bucks camps. That in itself I think justifies what we did.

So I hope you don't mind, and we are all the better for the discussion.

Sorry ant22 i should have put a message in the OP

 

[Lefthanded]

Good post.
I just want to point out that your average teacher has around 30 pupils in their class.. Numbers depend on school and level (primary/secondary). A primary teacher down here in Tas will need to have a close relationship with a class of 20/30, plus know by name, family and have a general concept of 150/300 pupils, damn good one of their immediate class. A secondary will need to know by name far more and have a good understanding of every child they teach, which may go over 100. By understanding I am referring to ability to provide an accurate assessment of them on an individual level as well as their work. Note that is part of far wider daily duties like preparing and delivering classes. In all cases the ability to engage and create the impression of a personal relationship is paramount. Teachers are not, in general, the cream of the crop and certainly not in the league of a top AFL coach. I have a fair degree of experience in working with groups of youth and people and it is not that hard. My point is, despite your maths if Bucks cannot make a personal connection and make every single one of those 46 players feel he is aware, deeply concerned and focused on them then he needs to find a new career.

Reading that (mainly points I agree with) made me think of Clarkson and his apparent like for coaches with teaching backgrounds as the skillset certainly has advantages if you also know football. I have no doubt Bucks knows football. I don't think it's essential for him to be the best teacher / people person (and I don't think he is) but do believe if it's a weakness or even something he's only average at then he needs at least one of his senior coaching staff who has it as their forte. I do also think the expectations and needs of young sporting stars would be a little different to those of students, especially primary age ones. I didn't need my teachers to know about my family or life outside school but mainly treating me fairly, with respect and helping me learn. Some were good at that, others not. Difficultly can also depend on whether at public or private school and demographic of the students - eg are they their to learn or do they need to be motivated, how much they require discipline etc.