Dawes in for L Brown?

[Blaster]

I wonder what would happen if we played both Dawes and Brown.

Brown could always pinch hit in defence too when we need a big body against Brownie (Bris) and Will Minson yesterday.

 

[TradeDraft]

I am no fan of big bad Leroy, and nor am I a big fan of Dawes but Dawes can not come in for Leroy based on last night's performance.

It's funny Dawes has some nice bells and whilstes but is lacking the key skill needed to be any kind of quality AFL foward. On the other hand Leroy lacks any kind of polish but has (at the most basic level) that key component.

The key skill we are talking about here is being a target. When the ball is kicked in Leroy's direction he is going to put up enough of an aerial contest that he is likely to bring the ball to ground and create at least a 50 / 50 for the smalls. Guys like Davis really benifit from this.

Statistically a good game for Leroy yesterday was an average or bad game for Dawes but Dawes just does do that and as a midfielder you wouldn't want to kick to Dawes unless you knew you could just about hit him on the tit. This in turn slows our ball movement down if we are not dominating the game through the midfield.

Based on yesterday Leroy is a better foward for our structure then Dawes which is the same arguement that has been used for Dawes in his poorer games.

Dawes has physically and athletically everything Leroy has and should be able to play the role Leroy plays and more but he just doesn't at the moment and until he does he will find it hard to contribute in tight games.

So in other Words we don't have any really Good KPF on the List. Cloke could be but I just don't see him Dominate Games as much as he Should.

So you are Saying we might as Well leave Leroy In as He Cracks Heads and Just Let Dawes stay in the VFL Until he hurts some players?

 

[Blaster]

If Leigh Brown kicks as straight for goal as he did yesterday. He is a big asset for the team. As he certainly adds Grunt with a capital G.

 

[shawthing09]

Trav is inconsistant but he is certainly a quality KPF. I don't like his game when he is running as high and wide to the wing as possible but mainly because he doesn't hurt enough with his disposals from this position but Cloke is still a quality KPF.

It's not about hurting people Dave it's abot being an option for the players moving the ball foward. That is the key function of a KPF, Dawes is only able to do this with space and even then as a midfielder there is extra pressure to have the ball pin point when passing to Dawes.

Until Dawes works out a way to be a true target he isn't going to be reliable at AFL level. It's all good and well to reap the benifits when the team is creaming the opposition but fowards also need to offer something when all is not well. For all the criticism he has copped over his career Rocca even when playing poorly personally would bring the ball to ground front and center and give the smalls a chance for the crumb, and make it easier to pressure the rebounding defensive teams. Dawes is not good enough in this regard. He needs stronger hands, to judge the ball better and to be more physical in the contest. Until then I don't care where he plays, I don't buy into this "he has learnt all he can at VFL" I think if anything his learnt to better use the skills he has on offer but hasn't really improved on his weaknesses.

I personally find it hard to split L Brown, Dawes and Anthony for the second KPF on current skills and form.

 

[DWil6]

I guess in Dawes' defence, we had no real crumbers last week.

 

[TradeDraft]

Trav is inconsistant but he is certainly a quality KPF. I don't like his game when he is running as high and wide to the wing as possible but mainly because he doesn't hurt enough with his disposals from this position but Cloke is still a quality KPF.

It's not about hurting people Dave it's abot being an option for the players moving the ball foward. That is the key function of a KPF, Dawes is only able to do this with space and even then as a midfielder there is extra pressure to have the ball pin point when passing to Dawes.

Until Dawes works out a way to be a true target he isn't going to be reliable at AFL level. It's all good and well to reap the benifits when the team is creaming the opposition but fowards also need to offer something when all is not well. For all the criticism he has copped over his career Rocca even when playing poorly personally would bring the ball to ground front and center and give the smalls a chance for the crumb, and make it easier to pressure the rebounding defensive teams. Dawes is not good enough in this regard. He needs stronger hands, to judge the ball better and to be more physical in the contest. Until then I don't care where he plays, I don't buy into this "he has learnt all he can at VFL" I think if anything his learnt to better use the skills he has on offer but hasn't really improved on his weaknesses.

I personally find it hard to split L Brown, Dawes and Anthony for the second KPF on current skills and form.

I thought he was Pretty Good Target when he led up the Ground and then got the Ball into the Forward 50 with his Great Kick.

Yes he does Struggle with Overhead Marks and at Times Bringing the Ball Down but I saw nothing that made me think L Brown is hell of a lot better then Dawes.

Brown only Advantage is that he Throws he Weight around more and How can Dawes improve on this at VFL and Not AFL Level?

 

[The Royal Sampler]

The key skill we are talking about here is being a target. When the ball is kicked in Leroy's direction he is going to put up enough of an aerial contest that he is likely to bring the ball to ground and create at least a 50 / 50 for the smalls. Guys like Davis really benifit from this.

Until Dawes works out a way to be a true target he isn't going to be reliable at AFL level. It's all good and well to reap the benifits when the team is creaming the opposition but fowards also need to offer something when all is not well. For all the criticism he has copped over his career Rocca even when playing poorly personally would bring the ball to ground front and center and give the smalls a chance for the crumb, and make it easier to pressure the rebounding defensive teams. Dawes is not good enough in this regard. He needs stronger hands, to judge the ball better and to be more physical in the contest.

Sorry mate, but I have to disagree here. Dawes doesn't hold his marks as he should, no question, but he almost always brings the ball to ground and in fact has been the best crumber of his own contests in the games he's played. How often has Dawes been outmarked this year?

The problem is that Davis has too often been the target of long kicks inside 50m this year, instead of crumbing which is what we genuinely need him for. I didn't get to watch yesterday's game, but it sounded like we either had Davis crumbing the packs or running on to the ball in open space, which is a far better setup for him. I have no doubt that Leon could crumb just as effectively if it was Dawes in the contest as opposed to L Brown.

 

[Art Corvelay]

How can Dawes improve on this at VFL and Not AFL Level?

Drink copious amounts of concrete and/or have someone kick his dog right before a game starts.

 

[Old Spice]

Not really sure how any tall forward who has spilt a mark is not bringing the ball to ground. Does it shoot off into the stratosphere never to return when some forwards miss the mark?

It's a question of crumbers being in the vicinity or moreso about talls going for a mark in the 50 where other small forwards are.

The advantage of Leroy last nite was his lack of athleticism means he hads to struggle with a defender at the drop of the ball region and is fairly strong. Took a good mark V Lake, I think. Haven't really seen Dawes do that as yet, but he is certainly strong.

Think like Cloke, Dawes likes to use his athleticism to run defenders off their feet a bit but doesn't do so enough to exhaust his opponent. Dawes burst running to get some clear space between him and his defender never looks explosive.

Plenty to work with though.

 

[mdc]

Not really sure how any tall forward who has spilt a mark is not bringing the ball to ground. Does it shoot off into the stratosphere never to return when some forwards miss the mark?

The aim is to bring it to ground front and square so that the crumbers have a chance. Dawes actually did this well in his first few games I thought, but the last couple of games he ran under the ball, which means it spills behind, where it's much easier for the defenders to clear it.

 

[scruffydog]

Considering I've been talking up Leigh Brown since he was signed (even when unwarranted) I am loving the majority of this thread

 

[cfx_1]

I think this would be a good time to see Jolly get his chance at being the only ruckman. Dawes in for Fraser and just see how he goes. Though Jamar demolished him last round, I think Jolly is a more complete player. Worst case scenario Leigh Brown puts a really physical presence on him if Jolly is getting done.

 

[shawthing09]

The aim is to bring it to ground front and square so that the crumbers have a chance. Dawes actually did this well in his first few games I thought, but the last couple of games he ran under the ball, which means it spills behind, where it's much easier for the defenders to clear it.

That is exactly what I was referring too. When the ball is either A) Slipping straight through your hands over the back or B) Not getting touched at all by the foward who has ran to far under it you have a problem.

 

[Thommo 42]

Dawes had 3 games in a row, and played on spuds apart from against Geelong. He was very very poor against Brisbane and had to go out.

I think he is the long term option, but he needs to go back to VFL and dominate there in the manner Brown did, and even then he will need to wait for Brown to put in a bad one.

Brown's game last night wasn't sensational, but if Dawes had played the very same game, most would rate it the best game of his career!

 

[TradeDraft]

Dawes had 3 games in a row, and played on spuds apart from against Geelong. He was very very poor against Brisbane and had to go out.

I think he is the long term option, but he needs to go back to VFL and dominate there in the manner Brown did, and even then he will need to wait for Brown to put in a bad one.

Brown's game last night wasn't sensational, but if Dawes had played the very same game, most would rate it the best game of his career!

Did you watch a Different Lions Game? Dawes was quite good in the Lions Game, Did fade out but was no where near the Worse

 

[Optimax]

Did you watch a Different Lions Game? Dawes was quite good in the Lions Game, Did fade out but was no where near the Worse

he was average against the lions, like the rest of the forward line but still he was average

 

[Thommo 42]

yeah Dave, I was at the ground.

He kicked a couple of nice goals, but generally dropped simple marks, ran under the ball, closed down space for Anthony (and vice versa) and didn't provide any physical presence in slippery conditions.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Dawes had 3 games in a row, and played on spuds apart from against Geelong. He was very very poor against Brisbane and had to go out.

I think he is the long term option, but he needs to go back to VFL and dominate there in the manner Brown did, and even then he will need to wait for Brown to put in a bad one.

Brown's game last night wasn't sensational, but if Dawes had played the very same game, most would rate it the best game of his career!

Dawes had a virtually identical game statistically against Brisbane, but when he had it he was "very poor". L Brown has this same 2 goal, 13 possession game and it would have been the "best game of Dawes' career".

I know we have our favourites here, just like MM does, and everyone else, but geez let's keep some perspective.

 

[Thommo 42]

There are lies, damn lies. Then there are statistics.

There are many things Leigh Brown brings to the team that aren't recorded on a stats sheet, if you honestly believe Dawes game vs Brisbane was like Brown vs Western Bulldogs, you are entitled to that opinion, but you're wrong

I'm not a Leigh Brown fanboy at all, but he was very good last night, while Dawes was poor for consecutive weeks. Added to the fact that Brown had been dominating at VFL level and suggestiosn that Dawes comes in for L.Brown are scary.

Dawes has played what, 14 games? None have been oustandingly better than what Brown produced last night, but its only 14 games.

Obviously he is the long term option, but we can't give games away to blokes who have clear deficiencies when a better option is in better form is on the list.

 

[Old Spice]

Dawes had a virtually identical game statistically against Brisbane, but when he had it he was "very poor". L Brown has this same 2 goal, 13 possession game and it would have been the "best game of Dawes' career".

I know we have our favourites here, just like MM does, and everyone else, but geez let's keep some perspective.

Leroy has the least to give, ergo, he gives more when he gives the same as Dawes. Jebus says as much in the bible.

 

[TradeDraft]

Leroy has the least to give, ergo, he gives more when he gives the same as Dawes. Jebus says as much in the bible.

I seen Dawes Throw his weight Around at AFL Level this year. Might not done it much the last 2 Games but he has

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I agree Brown has to get first shot next week and Dawes needs to prove himself in the VFL. I am not too worried - there's many games to go and time for Dawes to produce AFL standard football against good opposition. Also time for L Brown to become L Brown again. Anyway, at the moment, the backline probably needs a bit of thought put into it, given Maxwell's unaccountable efforts and N Brown's game in the 2nd's, so I will turn my attention to that.

 

[YouIdiot]

Fraser out, Dawes in, Brown back up ruckman and pinch hitter forward.

 

[Keele]

Dawes will not have played a game since being dropped.

In my opinion he needs to show reason to be recalled and by that through the VFL showing he can take overhead marks against weaker opponents and also use his body to advantage.


Some here have said he is above VFL level.. well let him prove it as did Leroy over his latter 3 weeks at that level.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

There are lies, damn lies. Then there are statistics.

There are many things Leigh Brown brings to the team that aren't recorded on a stats sheet, if you honestly believe Dawes game vs Brisbane was like Brown vs Western Bulldogs, you are entitled to that opinion, but you're wrong

I don't think the disparity is nearly as great as you suggested. For Dawes to have an 11 disposal, 4 mark, 2 goal "very poor" game, keeping in mind the midfield got smashed, our forward line flooded and we lost the game, as opposed to L Brown's "very good" 13 disposal, 5 mark, 2 goal game... means I think as Old Spice points out that we just have much lower standards for Leroy to live up to. There is a yawning gulf between "very poor" and "very good".

I'm not a Leigh Brown fanboy at all, but he was very good last night, while Dawes was poor for consecutive weeks. Added to the fact that Brown had been dominating at VFL level and suggestiosn that Dawes comes in for L.Brown are scary.

You were happy to point out that Dawes' "good" games were against spuds, but neglect to mention that L Brown's best game was against Frankston VFL, in which Frankston didn't score a goal until midway through the third term, and didn't score at all in the first quarter. A bit of perspective, that's what I'm asking for.

Obviously he is the long term option, but we can't give games away to blokes who have clear deficiencies when a better option is in better form is on the list.

I'm staggered to be honest that you would think L Brown is a better option in better form. Particularly given Dawes has only played around 16 games in his career, and his ceiling is considerably higher. I would argue L Brown's a significantly worse option, in arguably better form, against inarguably poorer opposition at the time Dawes was dropped for him.

Given Dawes was dropped it would appear he's got to take his lumps and start smashing blokes and gobbling marks in the VFL again (unfortunately he was held out of the VFL game). Such is life. I just can't help but think back to Ben Reid's early VFL forays, and the subsequent BF hysteria, when I read all these comments about Dawes and how *insert VFL player here* is a superior option because no-one's seen *insert VFL player here* disappoint at AFL level for a few weeks/months.

It's like when Goldsack is mercilessly flamed for several weeks, he gets dropped, and then when Toovey is playing in mediocre fashion everyone jumps on board and says "what does Goldy have to do to get a game?". Very frustrating.