Play Nice Derailed, (The Place to Continue Off-Topic Discussion)

[Didak Wine]

If there’s not enough actual information then misinformation can be used to fill the void.
This change to the constitution should be a no-brainer but somehow we’ve reached a point where, reportedly, only about 60-70% of Indigenous Australians believe in it. I have my fingers crossed but the result may be embarrassing.

I think if someone is against the cause they will find reasons to oppose it. If there was more detail the argument would shift to something else.

 

[jmac70]

Definitely how Albo will spin it.

Politicians are great at blaming others, but not so good at looking inward and admitting their own mistakes.

It is true that it is the ultimate deal blocker, which is why he should have done far more to bring the Libs on board. They were wavering early on and Albo could have politically hamstrung them if he said "We'll listen to all your concerns and consider changes to the wording".

Instead he put up a brick wall and said "We are not changing anything. No compromise!".

Frankly, he should have held the referendum next year and held a constitutional convention this year.

The chance of passing would have increased significantly.

You can’t blame Albo for the position that the Libs took. They’ve turned this into a protest vote.

 

[RobJD]

Yes I have. I don’t know a single other person who has though.

Edit: i don’t know many people. 15 or so.

That's sad isn't it - spoke with a friend last night and they didn't want to read the proposed change and asked me to explain it to them - it took about a thousand words and 30 minutes - would have been much quicker to simply read the proposed change!

 

[RobJD]

He stuffed up. He assumed the Libs would eventually say yes, as they would have if the current Libs actually stood for something rather than simply standing in opposition.

He overestimated the Libs and underestimated how Trumpable Australian politics is with swathes of voters being swayed by misinformation.

Sadly the saying that we get the politicians that we deserve might never be truer!

 

[petrie pie]

You can’t blame Albo for the position that the Libs took. They’ve turned this into a protest vote.

You can’t blame Albo for the position that the Libs took. They’ve turned this into a protest vote.

Dutton is the one to blame for this with him everything is about politics and this is more than politics. I saw Pat Dodson on the press club the other day and he is right if this does not get up this time when will it, he is also right when he says we need to have a good hard look in the mirror at ourselves.

A fair go for everybody that is what Australia prides itself on and this has to be bringing the original people along with us.Do we really want our children and grandchildren to think we were so racist that we did not do the right thing.

I am so sick of the politics of it it is not a question of politics just about what is right and wrong in 2023.

 

[leon123]

I voted at a church in an old money Adelaide booth. Had a sad chuckle at those handing out how to vote cards. 4 no voters to 1 yes voter. The no voters looked normal and representative. The yes campaigner was a very unattractive caricature of a left wing social misfit who will probably swing some votes to no.

This may give you a smile sr6, bullengarook voting place there was 1 yes and no campaigner respectively. They were getting along like old mates, discussing sponge recipes

 

[sr36]

This may give you a smile sr6, bullengarook voting place there was 1 yes and no campaigner respectively. They were getting along like old mates, discussing sponge recipes

Was it at the Rec or the primary school?

 

[leon123]

Was it at the Rec or the primary school?

Yeah, the old primary school

 

[windchimes]

Was it at the Rec or the primary school?

Some say the family of drunkard lawyers who lived next to the primary school still haunt that place.

 

[Black_White]

It’s a pity that the Libs have seen this as an opportunity to score political points. And not an opportunity to make life better for all Australians.
Because everyone’s life would be better when we don’t have a portion of the population that have a significant lower life expectancy, have a worse outcome from health interactions, have a higher child mortality rate and a higher incarceration rate.
For decades we’ve simply thrown billions of dollars at the issue and the outcomes haven’t changed.
And the Libs have decided that we shall continue on this path.
Such an opportunity lost.

 

[sr36]

Some say the family of drunkard lawyers who lived next to the primary school still haunt that place.

It's now a special school, so not surprising - they belong.


I'm pretty sure that joke is now banned, but it would have included groaning and hand gestures in the glory days of ridicule.

 

[doofdoof]

Do you genuinely believe Dutton would have allowed a bipartisan process?

I don't understand why some will allow Albo a free-pass if the Voice doesn't get through. There were several ways he could have increased support / managed resistance of which he did exactly zero. Made it too easy for Dutton the wrecker.

He stuffed up. He assumed the Libs would eventually say yes, as they would have if the current Libs actually stood for something rather than simply standing in opposition.

You can’t blame Albo for the position that the Libs took. They’ve turned this into a protest vote.

Dutton is the one to blame for this with him everything is about politics and this is more than politics.

It’s a pity that the Libs have seen this as an opportunity to score political points. And not an opportunity to make life better for all Australians.

From pro-Voice advocate and constitutional lawyer, Greg Craven:

Looking back, Craven says: “The fundamental problem was the bipartisanship. I mean, as we’re seeing in spades now, no modern referendum can win without bipartisanship. And the more controversial it is, the more that’s required.

“I think the truth is that the Prime Minister went about it in such a way that it was impossible there would be bipartisanship and the only question would be, was that intentional or accidental?

“It seems to me there’s a good argument that this was meant to be a crowning Labor achievement and to that extent, you know, bipartisanship was almost undesirable. And I think the moment that happened, the referendum was doomed because you’ve had a very effective No case and at the heart of that has been the Liberal Party’s opposition.”

 

[doofdoof]

Do you genuinely believe Dutton would have allowed a bipartisan process?

Yes I do. Albo could have also played the Libs into a corner and also potentially fractured the factions by asking what changes would work for them, then making those changes.

As Greg Craven suspects, I don't think Albo wanted to include them in the story if it was success. He was told he had 70% support for the referendum early this year. He wanted to get the Voice up AND smash the Libs politically if they opposed it and it passed. He gambled on a double win.

The other thing that worked against him that he didn't expect was the rampant cost of living crisis.

 

[jmac70]

From pro-Voice advocate and constitutional lawyer, Greg Craven:

Looking back, Craven says: “The fundamental problem was the bipartisanship. I mean, as we’re seeing in spades now, no modern referendum can win without bipartisanship. And the more controversial it is, the more that’s required.

“I think the truth is that the Prime Minister went about it in such a way that it was impossible there would be bipartisanship and the only question would be, was that intentional or accidental?

“It seems to me there’s a good argument that this was meant to be a crowning Labor achievement and to that extent, you know, bipartisanship was almost undesirable. And I think the moment that happened, the referendum was doomed because you’ve had a very effective No case and at the heart of that has been the Liberal Party’s opposition.”

It’s simply a vote to recognise First Australians in the constitution with a voice to parliament. An opportunity to contribute advice to decisions that impact them.

It’s yes or no.

The No campaign have deliberately made it something it was never intended to be.

The Libs are responsible for this.

 

[sr36]

From pro-Voice advocate and constitutional lawyer, Greg Craven:

Looking back, Craven says: “The fundamental problem was the bipartisanship. I mean, as we’re seeing in spades now, no modern referendum can win without bipartisanship. And the more controversial it is, the more that’s required.

“I think the truth is that the Prime Minister went about it in such a way that it was impossible there would be bipartisanship and the only question would be, was that intentional or accidental?

“It seems to me there’s a good argument that this was meant to be a crowning Labor achievement and to that extent, you know, bipartisanship was almost undesirable. And I think the moment that happened, the referendum was doomed because you’ve had a very effective No case and at the heart of that has been the Liberal Party’s opposition.”

In terms of bipartisanship, I think you're underestimating that Dutton played it well. Gave nothing along the way. Didn't try to participate. Said he was waiting for the government to lead. Waited until it was announced. To then go on the attack. It was well planned opposition.

Once it was a labour election promise, it was doomed.

 

[jmac70]

In terms of bipartisanship, I think you're underestimating that Dutton played it well. Gave nothing along the way. Didn't try to participate. Waited until it was announced. To then go on the attack. It was well planned opposition.

Once it was a labour election promise, it was doomed.

I very much hope it comes back to bite him on the arse.

 

[sr36]

I very much hope it comes back to bite him on the arse.

It won't though. It will always be remembered as an Albo stuff up - and it was. He's made the Labour govt look bad- the only goal of the Libs in opposition.

 

[jmac70]

It won't though. It will always be remembered as an Albo stuff up - and it was. He's made the Labour govt look bad- the only goal of the Libs in opposition.

I believe he will further alienate the traditional Liberal voters who deserted the party in the last election. Appealing to crack pots won’t win him the election.

 

[sr36]

I believe he will further alienate the traditional Liberal voters who deserted the party in the last election. Appealing to crack pots won’t win him the election.

He probably will on different issues, as he doesn't stand for anything other than wanting to win the next election, but he's having a big win on this issue. He's got yes voters thinking that labour are too hopeless to get things done and no voters thinking labour have shit half arsed ideas

 

[jmac70]

He probably will on different issues, as he doesn't stand for anything other than wanting to win the next election, but he's having a big win on this issue. He's got yes voters thinking that labour are too hopeless to get things done and no voters thinking labour have s**t half arsed ideas

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[Black_White]

From pro-Voice advocate and constitutional lawyer, Greg Craven:

Looking back, Craven says: “The fundamental problem was the bipartisanship. I mean, as we’re seeing in spades now, no modern referendum can win without bipartisanship. And the more controversial it is, the more that’s required.

“I think the truth is that the Prime Minister went about it in such a way that it was impossible there would be bipartisanship and the only question would be, was that intentional or accidental?

“It seems to me there’s a good argument that this was meant to be a crowning Labor achievement and to that extent, you know, bipartisanship was almost undesirable. And I think the moment that happened, the referendum was doomed because you’ve had a very effective No case and at the heart of that has been the Liberal Party’s opposition.”

Had any Lib leader but Dutton, Morrison or Abbot been in this position I believe bipartisan agreement could have been achieved.
But the Libs, along with the Country Party, are looking overseas for inspiration. And that inspiration comes from the orange man.
Oppose everything, make it plain that their daily life will crumble, and the nuffies will follow you.
It’s so sad that we have come to this. We will never advance as a society while we are fearful of the effects that legislation will have on us.
In the wash up of all this, we will continue to spend billions with very poor outcomes because those billions are poorly directed.

 

[sideswipe]

Had any Lib leader but Dutton, Morrison or Abbot been in this position I believe bipartisan agreement could have been achieved.
But the Libs, along with the Country Party, are looking overseas for inspiration. And that inspiration comes from the orange man.
Oppose everything, make it plain that their daily life will crumble, and the nuffies will follow you.
It’s so sad that we have come to this. We will never advance as a society while we are fearful of the effects that legislation will have on us.
In the wash up of all this, we will continue to spend billions with very poor outcomes because those billions are poorly directed.

The Libs must have suddenly turned into a bunch of political geniuses to be responsible for such a resounding defeat. Does that sound right?

Think the ALP might need to bear some responsibility for their horrendous handling of the whole process.

I voted yes.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[gerryg400]

Had any Lib leader but Dutton, Morrison or Abbot been in this position I believe bipartisan agreement could have been achieved.
But the Libs, along with the Country Party, are looking overseas for inspiration. And that inspiration comes from the orange man.
Oppose everything, make it plain that their daily life will crumble, and the nuffies will follow you.
It’s so sad that we have come to this. We will never advance as a society while we are fearful of the effects that legislation will have on us.
In the wash up of all this, we will continue to spend billions with very poor outcomes because those billions are poorly directed.

Perhaps they voted no because you call they are nuffies. We will never advance while you look down on people who are different from you.

 

[windchimes]

Hopeless, really.

Obviously things could be much worse, but gee, the results coming through are dire stuff.

We are clearly a long way off making any further progress towards meaningful reconciliation.

 

[Black_White]

Perhaps they voted no because you call they are nuffies. We will never advance while you look down on people who are different from you.

Oh my.
So the nuffies have spent months believing and retelling outright LIES and you expect me not to look down on them?
They are the lowest common denominator and the reason that all reproduction should be subject to licensing.
I’m happy to call those who are No voters equals when they can actually understand what was proposed and not introduce the lies into the conversation.
But they can’t. Because every excuse they have to justify their position has been dismantled time and time again.
Nuffies one and all!