Analysis Derek Hine leaves the Pies

[Andrew Yoa]

Would your trade Treloar for Viney or Oliver?

 

[76woodenspooners]

Mature age players as KPP depth likeDunn or Roughead or a Ben Hudson is fine. Recruiting broken body 32 year old midfielders like Wells to a 3 year deal was something else.

Fair enough

It was obvious half way through last year that Varcoe was past his best. And Reid has been cooked for years.

Yeah, that’s reasonable. Although to be fair it was refreshing to see last year was one of the few in the last decade where we haven’t turned over almost a quarter of our list.

Big difference between having an older player in the list as emergency depth and playing them (in the home and away season) over kids like Bianco and Rantall.

Varcoe should not have played 9 games this year. And we’ll be saying the same thing about Mayne next year when he is past his best but the coach refuses to concede that and give another kid a go

We gave out plenty of opportunities to the kids this year ... Ruscoe, Kelly, Bosenavulagi, Keane, Quaynor, C.Brown, T.Brown, Daicos, Noble all got games.

 

[AndrewShawble]

Would your trade Treloar for Viney or Oliver?

Not Viney, yes Oliver

 

[Albert Parker]

On Bucks and the coaching panel

Start of the season I identified
- Grundy's connectivity with the mids
- Mids ability to find our forwards
as key things I'd like to see improvement in.
That view still holds.

Even Nathan Buckley's father, a ruckman himself, told me that he thinks they need a proper ruck coach and better stoppage work.
He was coached by Polly Farmer briefly and he said he was amazed how much he learnt in a short period of time.

There is a clear shortfall in the way we manage rucks and clearances.
- Why does Grundy knock it forward at the boundary line when we have no sweepers moving through to collect the ball?
- Why spread his arms, hold his ground but then knock it to his feet at the centre clearances when we don't have an abundance of big bodied mids on the move to barge it out of there?
Win the tap out, lose the clearance too often.

We've invested too heavily in Grundy, Treloar, Adams, Pendlebury, Sidebottom to then have Anthony Rocca as Ruck coach and not be getting the best out of the players abilities. What does Robert Harvey bring to the equation? Do Buckley and Harvey adequately value the role of a good tap ruckman to invest in this area? Neither really played under one for most of their careers. Neither played in a premiership.

While Bucks has shown a lot of love for his team and environment is one of care for each other, I do fear we lack a hardened edge at times.
When I look at the way the Tigers play today, the Hawks under Clarkson, the Lions of 2001-2003 there has been a hardened edge which I fear may be an inhibiting factor to gaining the ultimate success. But I am not strong in this view.

I don't think we've been well served by our stagnant play at times. It hurts our scoring capacity. It was apparent from early in last nights game. By contrast, last week there was a sense of urgency in our play and it was to our benefit and we scored heavily.
We clearly lacked urgency last night and watched Geelong take the ball, with two blokes then descending upon them to tackle, freeing up another on the outside.

I've actually been impressed by the improvement in Madgen, but Roughead, Mayne, Madgen (and Sharenberg when there) in our defensive half are too slow and too safe as ball users. Aish was the same. Crisp has also been a butcher at times, despite looking to press more. IQ has been a breath of fresh air down back for his ability to run and carry and move the ball well by foot. Noble has generally had a sense of urgency. Maynard is generally a good and offensive kick. Moore is quite offensive in his style. We've missed Howe. I favour giving Murphy more of a run as a more attacking kicking option.

Critics of Hine as a talent identifier are misguided for mine.
His picks of Grundy, Stephenson, Sidebottom, Maynard, De Goey, Pendlebury, Reid, N Brown, Quaynor have all demonstrated an ability to identify talent at the draft. (I exclude Moore as a F/S but take note with the overlooking of James Stewart as a good call)
Also, plucking guys like Lumumba, Cox, Noble, Mihocek, Maxwell from a path beyond the draft reinforces this.
By contrast I look at the Giants, under Silvagni, and all the top 20 picks they've had to work with.
But picking up Treloar for two first round picks, Beams (originally a 'Hine special' at pick 27) similarly has robbed him of fire power in more recent times. Had Beams been on the park this year, it would have made quite the difference conceivably.
I think Hine is a massive asset for us as a talent identifier.

List management
List management and salary cap is now the domain of Ned Guy, who I have faith in. It was one of the positives of the review that we took list management off Hine who was spread too thin. Guy had about 27 players coming out of contract in his first year at the helm as a consequence. He has intelligently spread players contracts, of those we wish to keep, for longer and at lower amounts in order to keep the list together. We have re-signed the players we have wished to retain.
The signing of Beams was largely well in play before he got the the club.

Injuries
I also take heart from the improvement in injury management. Remember when Billy and Moore couldn't get on the park? They've just both played full seasons. De Goey's hamstrings have also not been an inhibiting factor. The German doctor's individual programs for players with soft tissue problems appears to work. Unfortunately some collision injuries have robbed us of the services of Howe, De Goey and Kelly this season instead. I'm unsure what can be done with Langdon.

The President
You take the good with the bad.
He's engineered the move to Holden Centre, which is a great facility.
He's underpinned a pick up in membership and commercial success.
He's done a lot more good than harm.

Despite those who say he's too thick with Bucks, he actually leaned toward Buckley being moved on in 2017.
But Peter Murphy made sure that Geoff Walsh was allowed to conduct his review and the players were overwhelming in their support for the coach and Bucks was retained.
Similar the appointment of Mark Anderson, a fresh face from outside of the incestuous, culturally-corrupt AFL given Ed had been keen to appease Gil and hire Simon Lethlean.

But he's made some mistakes.
- his misguided views in the media,
- the Gubby Allan appointment at the expense of Neil Balme, without sign off from the board being the worst example of his keenness to circumvent process and broker deals.
I think things have been better since the review and Ed's influence has been lessened.

 

[ExcitementMachine]

Would your trade Treloar for Viney or Oliver?

Oliver would come under some consideration, Viney? GTFO!

 

[AssassinAndy]

Would your trade Treloar for Viney or Oliver?

Oliver in the blink of an eye.

 

[Scratchy05]

I wouldn't move Grundy. I know he had a very down year by his standards but everyone seems to love him. Stephenson I can't say the same for but I do feel trading him at his current value is big unders on what he could potentially deliver. I think Eddie has to go. I don't blame Bucks for Crisp, Noble, Moore & Maynard providing kicks to the opposition from defence. Bucks can see out his contract and we can make a call after Eddie is gone.

 

[Quicky]

It's an 18 team competition. We just finished 6th overall and 8th at the end of the home and away season. It was an unprecedentedly difficult season for Victorian teams.

Our big losses came after crossing a wounded West Coast at home. Melbourne in our 3rd game in 12 days. And a wounded Cats following severe media criticism, after our elation a week earlier in Perth. I think we were simply flat and had run out of steam after an incredibly difficult year.

I think our best stacks up. I think our list is in good shape.

I reckon we also learned that we only play our best when we play with a positive intent and release the shackles. We did that far too often this season and last season too.

This isn't a time to burn the house down, however we do need to learn our lessons and make some adjustments.

Buckley & the coaches
I'm tired of our dour defensive game style. When we dominate we still struggle to score which leaves our opponent with a chance no matter how poor they play. It's also a bore to watch.

We have a great group of midfielders and a quality ruck yet are frequently beaten at centre clearances. This to me indicates we are either over rating our players are getting outcoached. I think it's the latter.

I think Walsh needs to step in here, as footy director and Buckley's boss. Buckley has a year to run on his contract and I think he will see it out. I would be giving him the strategic direction that next year he needs to play a more positive style of football. I would also refresh his assistants, Harvey has been in a senior or midfield role the entire time we have struggled and we seem stagnant and out of ideas. Give Bucks different and better support. If he can't lift in his final year a tough call needs to be made.

Guy & list management
It concerns me that Guy oversaw the Beams deal. It also concerns me that Ed is rumoured to have stepped in to pressure it to occur, which is totally inappropriate. The rumours of our salary cap issues continue to persist and its hard to know whether there is truth to it. I think we need to correct this and should be looking closely at how we deal with Beams, Langdons, Phillips (and if we recruit a key forward) Cox's salaries so we can get some breathing space.

It's also absolutely critical, that with the age profile of our list, that we need to strengthen our draft hand and replenish our youth. We are in an enviable position with Reef and Daicos which allows us to maximise our position. This should be our main priority.

Hine & recruiting
Hine is going well in his role and I disagree with his criticism, except where it relates to his reluctance to use early draft picks on key position players. That needs to change and again reckon Walsh needs to step in with direction here. I just hope we don't go chasing a quick fix through trade instead give him the tools to do his thing. We'll be rewarded for it.

 

[Darkyprotector]

I have gone in to bat for Buckley for years, as anyone on here who has been around a while will know. I preferred Buckley over Malthouse in the succession, a move I still think was right, but we're now at the point where we need to ask is Buckley maximising what I believe to be an A+ list.

Like Melbourne and GWS, we have a fantastic squad. But we need to ask is Buckley extracting maximum value from the team that Hine has constructed?

I doubt it. If we look across all lines, we have champion players everywhere. Moore, Maynard, Crisp, Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Adams, De Goey, Grundy (more later), Elliot. In isolation, they're all threats. But they are not being drawn together to become a potent force. The systems are in crisis.

What of the game plan? Geelong played well tonight, brilliantly, but we regularly saw Geelong players in paddocks of space. At one point there were four Cats players to one Pie near half forward in the 4th quarter. You can blame the players for not being in the position they were instructed to be in, or not giving clear instructions. But any way you want to dice that particular play, it rests with the coaching panel, and ultimately with Buckley.

Or does it? Partly, but not entirely I'd suggest.

Eddie McGuire is someone else I've defended over the years, and make no mistake his razzle dazzle was vital to reinvigourating the club in the dark years of the late 90s. But right now, the place is stale. There's no competition in talent, no fresh ideas to breath life into the place, just patch minding and arse covering. Collingwood is now like a mid 20th century American Union. McGuire is like Jimmy Hoffa. Once a hero that built a movement, but now just so far away from where we need to be it's not funny.

The zeitgeist is beyond him now. It's Vaudeville. It's a parody, sloppy sentimentalism.

I thank Eddie for his contribution but he has to go. We need a flat structure where football science is king, not a dominating figure that gets his way through force of personality. Over the last few years, no one has challenged Eddie and that's poor for innovation and ideas.

To be sure we needed to garner the Collingwood spirit and emotion to survive in the late 90s, but now we need to be in the channel of winning and ruthless decision making.

Moving Grundy and Stephenson on are two ruthless moves we should make while they still have value. McGuire cuddles are of no value to us. They have let us down. Not just on performance but attitude. I've found it disgusting if I'm frank, the way their poor efforts have been rewarded. I've seen on multiple occasions Stephenson berate his team mates, and Grundy has been a massive pea heart through the year. Barely getting off the ground in centre bounces.

If the culture was the problem, we need to address it. The Lumumba stuff has been a disruption and possibly a disaster in the group. How much of that mud stuck? It feels from the outside that it might have mattered and was possibly poorly handled. But who would know. The culture is opaque.

If we are rebuilding this club, the safest position should be Hine's. We need a clean sweep of the kind that the Tigers had with Brendan Gale: smart, modern, strategic. We're a massive club with massive brand value. We should be braining the competition and moving from emotion to systems.

You lost me at A1 list
Seriously
This is so unbalanced
No centre half forward
No small forward
A lack of pace
Too many injured during and too make it worse
Expectations that Reid, sharenburg,Langdon and beam's would come good and play a roll

That stepho would grow up
That even though we start the season 4 down and with broomhead,Greenwood,Cox, and others not starting the season ready

List management

Throw in
Inexperienced players
Keene
Wilson
Lynch
Atu

And then add Treloar and de goey injury profiles

Rapt with the ,A1 list

Let's man up
We're soft

 

[Albert Parker]

It's an 18 team competition. We just finished 6th overall and 8th at the end of the home and away season. It was an unprecedentedly difficult season for Victorian teams.

Our big losses came after crossing a wounded West Coast at home. Melbourne in our 3rd game in 12 days. And a wounded Cats following severe media criticism, after our elation a week earlier in Perth. I think we were simply flat and had run out of steam after an incredibly difficult year.

I think our best stacks up. I think our list is in good shape.

I reckon we also learned that we only play our best when we play with a positive intent and release the shackles. We did that far too often this season and last season too.

This isn't a time to burn the house down, however we do need to learn our lessons and make some adjustments.

Buckley & the coaches
I'm tired of our dour defensive game style. When we dominate we still struggle to score which leaves our opponent with a chance no matter how poor they play. It's also a bore to watch.

We have a great group of midfielders and a quality ruck yet are frequently beaten at centre clearances. This to me indicates we are either over rating our players are getting outcoached. I think it's the latter.

I think Walsh needs to step in here, as footy director and Buckley's boss. Buckley has a year to run on his contract and I think he will see it out. I would be giving him the strategic direction that next year he needs to play a more positive style of football. I would also refresh his assistants, Harvey has been in a senior or midfield role the entire time we have struggled and we seem stagnant and out of ideas. Give Bucks different and better support. If he can't lift in his final year a tough call needs to be made.

Guy & list management
It concerns me that Guy oversaw the Beams deal. It also concerns me that Ed is rumoured to have stepped in to pressure it to occur, which is totally inappropriate. The rumours of our salary cap issues continue to persist and its hard to know whether there is truth to it. I think we need to correct this and should be looking closely at how we deal with Beams, Langdons, Phillips (and if we recruit a key forward) Cox's salaries so we can get some breathing space.

It's also absolutely critical, that with the age profile of our list, that we need to strengthen our draft hand and replenish our youth. We are in an enviable position with Reef and Daicos which allows us to maximise our position. This should be our main priority.

Hine & recruiting
Hine is going well in his role and I disagree with his criticism, except where it relates to his reluctance to use early draft picks on key position players. That needs to change and again reckon Walsh needs to step in with direction here. I just hope we don't go chasing a quick fix through trade instead give him the tools to do his thing. We'll be rewarded for it.

Make no mistake. The Beams deal was well in tow by the time Ned Guy was officially allowed to start.
A romantic gesture by Ed, who told Beams when he left that he was one of us and with Steele working on Bucks, I gather. Guy just had to broker the deal with the Lions and get the finances to work with a deal that was front end loaded. The call to entice and add the player was already done by the time Guy started.

 

[Markfs]

as a first step.... lets all promise never to nominate for the board...

 

[Quicky]

Make no mistake. The Beams deal was well in tow by the time Ned Guy was officially allowed to start.
A romantic gesture by Ed, who told Beams when he left that he was one of us and with Steele working on Bucks, I gather. Guy just had to broker the deal with the Lions and get the finances to work with a deal that was front end loaded. The call to entice and add the player was already done by the time Guy started.

Ed has no place in those decisions which is concerning. Still, would respect Guy more if he'd managed to influence that decision so we didn't pick Beams up.

 

[Carringbush2010]

We will compete for win a GF again in the next couple of years. Stay positive Pies fans.

If you'd have said this, instead of just making up the numbers, then your last sentence could be taken seriously.

 

[johncitizen]

If you'd have said this, instead of just making up the numbers, then your last sentence could be taken seriously.

I am taking it seriously. We are a player or two short of contending. Injuries have not helped..

 

[Carringbush2010]

I am taking it seriously. We are a player or two short of contending a premiership(s). Injuries have not helped..

Again, you're not using the right language. Pie fans aren't interested in just contending - we've been contending infinitum since the league's inception, a gazillion GF losses and only 2 flags in the last 6 decades is wearing a bit thin for most. Hopefully the club is not content with just contending and actually makes the not much required changes to actually achieve success.

 

[johncitizen]

Again, you're not using the right language. Pie fans aren't interested in just contending - we've been contending infinitum since the league's inception, a gazillion GF losses and only 2 flags in the last 6 decades is wearing a bit thin for most. Hopefully the club is not content with just contending and actually makes the not much required changes to actually achieve success.

Whatever mate, silly post from you. Contending means you're in with a chance. You do not get much better of a chance without being a contender.

The past is the past. If you would like to talk about the past. We dominated this competition for 50+ years

 

[Carringbush2010]

Questions for everyone.

Does everyone think Hine is where the buck stops in recruiting? No.

The coach and panel has the say at the end of the day on the recommendations provided by the recruiting team and Hine.

Does everyone remember the list build post 2012? If you'd answer yes then you'd understand that coaching panel asks the recruiters to recruit certain types of players.

On face value the post MM list was built around contested possy and grunt, after the review coaching development improved markedly and lo and behold the targeted list profile coupled with the game plan to suit that list almost pulls off a flag. Almost.

You all know I've been critical at times of Dekka, but most of that is usually on the back of hind sight. Freeman and the Berg most notably, that was good recruiting but hind sight is a mistress more trouble than it's worth. Not Dekka's fault really.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Whatever mate, silly post from you. Contending means you're in with a chance. You do not get much better of a chance without being a contender.

The past is the past. If you would like to talk about the past. We dominated this competition for 50+ years

Why is a factual post silly? Ask most Pie fans the forever teasing and rarely pleasing is getting tiresome. We're always in with a chance cause we're forever contending but never succeeding.

If you want to hang onto the past that ended more than 6 decades ago then good for you. You're pretty much alone with that content though.

 

[johncitizen]

Why is a factual post silly? Ask most Pie fans the forever teasing and rarely pleasing is getting tiresome. We're always in with a chance cause we're forever contending but never succeeding.

If you want to hang onto the past that ended more than 6 decades ago then good for you. You're pretty much alone with that content though.

Well that is just fantastic.. what is your quick fix for our club?

 

[Carringbush2010]

Well that is just fantastic.. what is your quick fix for our club?

Well not that my opinion will have any baring on what the club will do but here goes:

Replace Sanderson and Harvey, two key areas in development of game style (mid and forward) that has declined visually in the last two seasons.

Clear out some deadwood players, thanks for your services Varcoe, Dunn, Berg, Wills, Broomy, etc.

IF our cap permits it, target a KPF of note while developing Kelly - if not if we can fix our game Cox could be a weapon again.

There's really not much that needs doing in my mind that gets us a flag(s).

As far as the thread title goes, Dekka is not really the issue, certainly not one we need to concentrate our efforts on.

 

[johncitizen]

Well not that my opinion will have any baring on what the club will do but here goes:

Replace Sanderson and Harvey, two key areas in development of game style (mid and forward) that has declined visually in the last two seasons.

Clear out some deadwood players, thanks for your services Varcoe, Dunn, Berg, Wills, Broomy, etc.

IF our cap permits it, target a KPF of note while developing Kelly - if not if we can fix our game Cox could be a weapon again.

There's really not much that needs doing in my mind that gets us a flag(s).

As far as the thread title goes, Dekka is not really the issue, certainly not one we need to concentrate our efforts on.

Most of what you're saying is obvious in what will happen. Don't know about Sanderson or Harvey though, and I doubt they're the problem..

We need to get rid of plenty of deadwood. Including Cox , Lynch, Cameron..look at trading one or two stars as well. I would not be giving DeGoey big coin just yet.. trade him if he or his dad do not come to terms.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Most of what you're saying is obvious in what will happen. Don't know about Sanderson or Harvey though, and I doubt they're the problem..

We need to get rid of plenty of deadwood. Including Cox , Lynch, Cameron..look at trading one or two stars as well. I would not be giving DeGoey big coin just yet.. trade him if he or his dad do not come to terms.

It's not obvious it will happen but it's my opinion you asked for. I think Cox can be a valuable weapon, wouldn't sell him down the river just yet. Unless Harves and Sando change their development ways I doubt our game will suit him though.

 

[johncitizen]

It's not obvious it will happen but it's my opinion you asked for. I think Cox can be a valuable weapon, wouldn't sell him down the river just yet. Unless Harves and Sando change their development ways I doubt our game will suit him though.

We are on the same page brother.. I also like Cox. If a suitable trade was made for him or DeGoey I would not be as devastated as some folks here..

We need to get ruthless with our players and our trades.

Not that comfortable with the Grundy deal.. hope he lifts next year

 

[SwanBet]

We have finished 2nd, 3rd/4th and 5th/6th over the past 3 years.... we have a great list.

Hine is one of the best talent ID recruiters in the country, hardly to blame for the sides ball moment and constant injury problems.

I have seen plenty on here call out Hine - yes, some list management decisions were questionable when he was in that role, but he has proven to be an incredible talent identifier, time and time again. The only significant blemish on his record is the Scharenberg/Freeman draft, both of which were injury, not talent failures.

 

[ThePheonix]

We have finished 2nd, 3rd/4th and 5th/6th over the past 3 years.... we have a great list.

Hine is one of the best talent ID recruiters in the country, hardly to blame for the sides ball moment and constant injury problems.

I have seen plenty on here call out Hine - yes, some list management decisions were questionable when he was in that role, but he has proven to be an incredible talent identifier, time and time again. The only significant blemish on his record is the Scharenberg/Freeman draft, both of which were injury, not talent failures.

Amazing that you think with that record makes him one of the best, we had one lucky year and this year highlights how weak our list really is. We are vulnerable to injuries unlike Richmond. Our list is nowhere near good enough to dominate a league, and we will always end up in the middle or with a good year slightly higher.

Also Freeman would never have made it, injury or not.