Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * Coroners Inquiry CANCELLED!

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[Kurve]

Yes. That's why Lonergan said recently on oath that they don't know what happened to WT. So all this legal pressure they are building costing the Fosters massive legal bills is all based upon BS. Pretty disgraceful really

An admission by Lonergan without knowing the full context, indicating they don't know does not mean they have absolutely nothing going towards the FM involvement. The cops can't simply send a brief to the DPP on a theory, bearing in mind we now know a charge of manslaughter is under consideration.

We still don't know what this new information was that they had and which sent them on the last big dig.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

An admission by Lonergan without knowing the full context, indicating they don't know does not mean they have absolutely nothing going towards the FM involvement. The cops can't simply send a brief to the DPP on a theory, bearing in mind we now know a charge of manslaughter is under consideration.

We still don't know what this new information was that they had and which sent them on the last big dig.

The context was he was asked a question on oath and answered ...."we don't know what happened to WT". What does that mean in context? it means they MAY have gathered some evidence but the evidence isn't yet determinative of what happened to WT. If you can't say what happened with evidence you don't have beyond reasonable doubt. They may still have evidence like:

*Cadaver dog indication at cnr Cobb & Co and Batar cr Rd satisfying them a cadaver was there

• Dark pink blanket material matching colour of an image from FGM walkthrough bedroom
• Shoes they think might be WT shoes found on Batar Cr Rd even with DNA but no proof how they got there
• Phone ping data and her own statement saying she went there on that cnr
• A witness saying she was seen there with something wrapped in dark pink blanket

The charge is concealing a body

To satisfy that charge you must be able to prove where the body was concealed after being taken away. Because concealment is the crime. If they had DNA on a blanket say, it DOES prove he was there which proves the body was concealed there and given FM was seen there, admitted to going there, and perhaps had phone pings there too, does prove the case and enables Lonergan to say what evidence he has to prove it. You therefore must conclude they don't have DNA from that site nor can they prove the dark pink blanket was one of a set from FGM house


IF they have some evidence that promoted a charge of manslaughter it's highly likely that they have a witness being FD who may/ may not be compelled to give witness under sec 18 of evidence act or may be excluded as a 'daughter' assuming such a designation extends to a class being foster relations at the time of offence

It is interesting that you say this is a development because it gives clear guidance to what they may have to potentially prove manslaughter. .....my guess a witness statement from FD. That rules out siblicide then as possible explanation

THEORY:

It may be that DPP has said the charge concealing a body can't be proven and they have gone all in on the manslaughter charge now using FD statement whereas initially they may have preferred to keep FD out of the picture to limit further trauma

 

[Kurve]

The context was he was asked a question on oath and answered ...."we don't know what happened to WT". What does that mean in context? it means they MAY have gathered some evidence but the evidence isn't yet determinative of what happened to WT. If you can't say what happened with evidence you don't have beyond reasonable doubt.

Without a conviction or a body at this stage, they don't 'know'. Lonergan was cornered under cross.

The charge is concealing a body

To satisfy that charge you must be able to prove where the body was concealed after being taken away. Because concealment is the crime. If they had DNA on a blanket say, it DOES prove he was there which proves the body was concealed there and given FM was seen there, admitted to going there, and perhaps had phone pings there too, does prove the case and enables Lonergan to say what evidence he has to prove it. You therefore must conclude they don't have DNA from that site nor can they prove the dark pink blanket was one of a set from FGM house

The charge is interfere with a corpse.

We see convictions for murder often enough, lacking an admission and/or a body.

It is interesting that you say this is a development because it gives clear guidance to what they may have to potentially prove manslaughter. .....my guess a witness statement from FD. That rules out siblicide then.

I agree the police may have something from the FD but that would be further to the 'new' information they got before the big dig commenced because iirc and correct me if I'm wrong, the FD was removed from the home after the dig?

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Without a conviction or a body at this stage, they don't 'know'. Lonergan was cornered under cross.



The charge is interfere with a corpse.

We see convictions for murder often enough, lacking an admission and/or a body.



I agree the police may have something from the FD but that would be further to the 'new' information they got before the big dig commenced because iirc and correct me if I'm wrong, the FD was removed from the home after the dig?

Yes the charge is interfering with a body but if you delve deeper into the section the only thing of relevance for interfering as defined is concealment. I did a short cut

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Sec 81C it's an offence if you indecently interfere with a dead human being

Both indecently and interfere are defined terms.

Indecently essentially is anything contrary to what right minded people consider is acceptable community standards

Interfering includes remove and/or concealment

If you remove a body from a location where the person passed and conceal it's location that activates the crime..it would be contrary to community standards to take a body away and hide or conceal it's location because the acceptable community standard is that it be dealt with by a mortuary

So essentially what you have to prove is it was moved and concealed

 

[Lady O]

Sec 81C it's an offence if you indecently interfere with a dead human being

Both indecently and interfere are defined terms.

Indecently essentially is anything contrary to what right minded people consider is acceptable community standards

Interfering includes remove and/or concealment

If you remove a body from a location where the person passed and conceal it's location that activates the crime..it would be contrary to community standards to take a body away and hide or conceal it's location because the acceptable community standard is that it be dealt with by a mortuary

So essentially what you have to prove is it was moved and concealed

IF indeed this happened, I would have thought there would be other charges. If you fail to render assistance or call emergency and report an accident, that would surely be a crime? But, the real question is WHY you would do this and in most if not all cases, it would be because you have some involvement or have something to hide.

 

[Kurve]

IF indeed this happened, I would have thought there would be other charges. If you fail to render assistance or call emergency and report an accident, that would surely be a crime? But, the real question is WHY you would do this and in most if not all cases, it would be because you have some involvement or have something to hide.

Given there is a proved history now of disciplining the kids by hitting with an implement, that the FM had complained of him being difficult and that there was a bonding issue, the police might suggest the reason William was moved and hidden was because there was evidence of it in bruising.

 

[31550]

Is anyone able to point out on a map, where exactly McInally's house is located in relation to FGM's? And where his body was recently found? Thanks in advance.

 

[Lady O]

Is anyone able to point out on a map, where exactly McInally's house is located in relation to FGM's? And where his body was recently found? Thanks in advance.

Google maps, No 10.

 

[Lady O]

Given there is a proved history now of disciplining the kids by hitting with an implement, that the FM had complained of him being difficult and that there was a bonding issue, the police might suggest the reason William was moved and hidden was because there was evidence of it in bruising.

And it seems that they were able to prove she was capable of this kind of violence against children.

 

[LRitz]

This fits in with the accident theory. What if it wasn't an accident?

Looking at the whole time line of events, most of the actions / events were either part of statements from the family (which may or may not be able to be proved), or events that they controlled. For example the time of the work conference at 9:30 was controlled and planned by FF. The photo of WT, taken just minutes after this work call had started (supposedly at 9:37), was controlled by the FM.

The two bits of evidence that they did not plan or control, and would probably have been unaware of at the time, were the CCTV at the tennis club and the drive by the FM in the FGM car. The CCTV puts FF trip to Lakewood out, with 15 minutes added to a short trip. He said he did not stop anywhere on the way. The FM's car trip was concealed from police until she was caught out with the evidence.

 

[BFew]

With so much in common, looking into the future, I can foresee the FM and Bruce Lehrmann in a relationship of some kind.

Probably not her defence lawyer.
Possibly a Sugar Mummy Monster relationship.

 

[31550]

This fits in with the accident theory. What if it wasn't an accident?

Looking at the whole time line of events, most of the actions / events were either part of statements from the family (which may or may not be able to be proved), or events that they controlled. For example the time of the work conference at 9:30 was controlled and planned by FF. The photo of WT, taken just minutes after this work call had started (supposedly at 9:37), was controlled by the FM.

The two bits of evidence that they did not plan or control, and would probably have been unaware of at the time, were the CCTV at the tennis club and the drive by the FM in the FGM car. The CCTV puts FF trip to Lakewood out, with 15 minutes added to a short trip. He said he did not stop anywhere on the way. The FM's car trip was concealed from police until she was caught out with the evidence.

What are you suggesting, then? Was William with FF or FM? What did FF do on the way to Lakewood? Where did FM go on her trip and why?
FM spoke about her car trip on video on the Sunday after William's disappearance (the same day she gave a statement to police). So it seems she was never questioned about it, rather than deliberately concealed it.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Given there is a proved history now of disciplining the kids by hitting with an implement, that the FM had complained of him being difficult and that there was a bonding issue, the police might suggest the reason William was moved and hidden was because there was evidence of it in bruising.

Yes that's assuming it was an accident at all. I recently posted link to a retrospective study of balcony falls by children. It had a mortality of only 2% or less from such heights. Add the fact there was soft carpet of low lying ferns ground hugging plants and mulch/ soft soil, the fall was likely to result in trauma but not death. If there was head trauma, I'd also previously linked a study of effects of head trauma which made clear that only a small percentage show immediate mortality and you'd think they'd be the ones on hard surfaces. The vast majority show lost consciousness, brain swelling or bleeds which over time can then cause deterioration and death. They had 48 mins. It DIDN'T happen in that time imo let alone say half where the other half was used to hide a body. No sorry. They couldn't determine death in that time so wouldn't have had impetus to therefore hide a body. That assumes anyway that a husband and wife team that seem to support together would in any event abandon consensus decisions for unilateral decisions on something as critically important as..... Is he dead......and should we hide a body. Also unlikely to have happened

Of course all bets are off when there is existing head trauma which may include a fractured skull. The sorts of signs are similar to what WT had shown and which Fosters had conveniently referred to as mysterious inability to get up after a fall from chair and off FM. Black eyes, head shyness/ tenderness, timid/ lethargy (per last bio visit). If there was such head trauma then a secondary hit again identically, I suspect the trauma could then be immediately fatal. That sort of trauma would also leave forensic trail post mortem you'd expect which would give impetus for hiding a body.

The whole Foster family appear experts in story telling imo. What wonderful parents they are. How happy an environment they create. How much loved and responsive WT was to them.

The biggest risk here remains siblicide. WT was furious with older sister, had behaviours showing inadequate impulse control temper tantrums, biting & hitting and at age 3-4 the peak testosterone levels in his life. Recipe for disaster.

If police are looking as manslaughter then that contradicts siblicide because of doli incapax. it must be an adult. I still believe less likely because an adult usually has sound impulse control though the boundaries may have been pressed by a rampaging WT. We will see

 

[31550]

If police are looking as manslaughter

Lonergan only said they "HAD considered ... POSSIBLE manslaughter". I'm not aware of evidence police are ACTIVELY pursuing manslaughter as the LIKELY scenario (or ruling out accident, abduction, lost ...)

 

[Kurve]

And it seems that they were able to prove she was capable of this kind of violence against children.

All we're waiting for now is sentencing, she pleaded guilty.

This is where propensity might factor in, should the DPP proceed.

 

[johnymac1]

A article from the Guardian.

"In an earlier, separate court proceeding it was revealed that Sergeant Scott Jamieson told the foster mother during a police interview more than two years ago: “We know why, we know how, we know where he is.

“We aren’t guessing, we aren’t bluffing.

“We are saying we know what happened and why it happened and where [his body] is.”

But like so much else in the matter of William Tyrrell’s disappearance, the case appears far more complex. And the boy who has at times been everywhere is still nowhere to be found".

I guess with the Bluff, you can only try it once!.... Still no Body

 

[Kurve]

I guess the Bluff can only work once!.... Still no Body

It's hard to believe they would bluff on something as specific as that. Without actually having it, of course she was going to call it.

Something else has gone on imo that we don't know about yet.

 

[stormbird]

Re the death of a man on Batar Creek Road:

From NSW Police Force Latest News today, 26 Nov 2023:

"A man will face court charged over the murder of another man earlier this week in the state's north.

About 6.40pm on Wednesday (22 November 2023), emergency services responded to reports that a man had been shot at the front of a home along Batar Creek Road, Kendall.

...

Police will allege that after the shooting a group of men were seen to drive away from the location.

Following inquiries detectives arrested a 39-year-old man at 4.10pm yesterday (Saturday 25 November 2023) after a vehicle stop on the Pacific Highway, Nabiac.

He was taken to Taree Police Station and charged with accessory after the fact to murder, conceal serious indictable offence and drive motor vehicle during disqualification period.

...

As inquiries continue, anyone with information about the incident is urged to contact Crime Stoppers on 1800 333 000."

Latest News - NSW Police Public Site

 

[Awakening]

Re the death of a man on Batar Creek Road:

From NSW Police Force Latest News today, 26 Nov 2023:

"A man will face court charged over the murder of another man earlier this week in the state's north.

About 6.40pm on Wednesday (22 November 2023), emergency services responded to reports that a man had been shot at the front of a home along Batar Creek Road, Kendall.

...

Police will allege that after the shooting a group of men were seen to drive away from the location.

Following inquiries detectives arrested a 39-year-old man at 4.10pm yesterday (Saturday 25 November 2023) after a vehicle stop on the Pacific Highway, Nabiac.

He was taken to Taree Police Station and charged with accessory after the fact to murder, conceal serious indictable offence and drive motor vehicle during disqualification period.

...

As inquiries continue, anyone with information about the incident is urged to contact Crime Stoppers on 1800 333 000."

Latest News - NSW Police Public Site

McInally was into drugs. Maybe he still was.

 

[Kurve]

Some have been wondering why the police have mentioned 'propensity' if it isn't relevant to WT going missing and the possible charges are only interfere with a corpse etc.

Propensity in a pattern of violence against the children in her care that causes bruising, is the motive for moving his body. If William had bruising under his spiderman suit, the police would have been looking to charge her with murder.

It's a good motive.

 

[Kurve]

McInally was into drugs. Maybe he still was.

Was he there when WT went missing? I'll google the house.

 

[Kurve]

Hey, McInally's house is near the corner of Laurel Street where the flower judge lived, Mr. Chapman. Probably spotted driving in the wrong direction though if there was any involvement?

 

[stormbird]

Hey, McInally's house is near the corner of Laurel Street where the flower judge lived, Mr. Chapman. Probably spotted driving in the wrong direction though if there was any involvement?

Does anybody know that it was MM who died or is that just speculation?

 

[stormbird]

From NSW Police Force Latest News, 27 Nov 2023:

"Following further inquiries, detectives arrested a 37-year-old man and a 27-year-old woman at a home in North Haven about 1.30pm yesterday (Sunday 26 November 2023).

They were both taken back to Port Macquarie Police Station where the man was charged with murder and the woman was charged with conceal serious indictable offence."

Latest News - NSW Police Public Site