Do umpires influence the outcome of games?

[Books]

Do umpires influence the outcome of games?

Lol.

Does a one-legged duck swim in circles?

 

[JoondalupJ]

Totally. But its not their fault. The fault lays with the continual messing around with the rules.
The "perception of the individual" type of interpretation of the laws of the game make it a most frustrating thing to watch.
Umpires apoligising on the ground for mistakes , umpires no 1 interprets differently to umpire number 2 or 3 , its a hands in the back here is not a hands in the back there.
If it wasn,t spoiling the sport it would be funny. But on different occasions I,ve turned it off in disgust. Yes I can remember some decisions that changed a result , it simply shouldn,t happen , to any team. Get the rules clean and clear black and white, and give the bloody umps a fair go. Perhaps sacking Bartlett and Dimetriou and a few other money hungry AFL beaurocrats might save the game.

 

[JoondalupJ]

why would/should free kicks be even in a game?

Free kicks should never be anything but when they are free kicks to who ever.
But FACT umpire training sometimes puts emphasis on a certain type of infringement for that week, and its targeted the next round of games.
Now that is a FACT. Think on that for a minute, that is weird, its like the police targetting "speed this long weekend or drink driving this area or whatever",
What should happen is every infringment should be targeted but not guessed at, but these poor bastards have to make a decision in a split second and all the rules committee do is make it f#@k^n harder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TAITA]

today Razar Ray took the cake for the worst decision ever, made me laugh when he penalised the melbourne player for holding the ball after it had come out, been picked up by the collingwood guy who was then tackled to the ground , he clearly guessed and wasnt looking.

According to 3AW today paid 13 free kicks as the most over officiating umpire of the match, 11 - 2 in Collingwood's favour - and all from 80 metres plus.

Should be a sniper.

 

[TAITA]

Just further to all this because I am a 'don't complain - don't explain sort of bloke' - no, free kicks should not equal out at the end of the match.

However, if we are both playing the same game, in the same spirit, with three umpires to give us consistencey - you'd think that at least it would be consistent.

What we are served up now is amateurish, and will continue to be so whilst officiated by amateurs.

It's a joke.

 

[BadFish]

Just further to all this because I am a 'don't complain - don't explain sort of bloke' - no, free kicks should not equal out at the end of the match.

However, if we are both playing the same game, in the same spirit, with three umpires to give us consistencey - you'd think that at least it would be consistent.

What we are served up now is amateurish, and will continue to be so whilst officiated by amateurs.

It's a joke.

I don't know if you can hang your hat on professional umpires. I remember the same discussions in the UK when they made the referees professional over there and it didn't make a huge amount of difference.

Officials making mistakes is the same in every quick team sport the world over. They have an impossible job to see everything and make split second decisions. I think things can go either way for teams, if I thought for a moment that officials were biased i would stop going and stop watching sport.

I honestly don't think fans can make a fair judgement about umpires as we see the game from unbelievable bias. If you had won that game we would have fans complaining about umpiring decisions (especially if Buddy was paid that one at the end).

I have great respect for your club, good luck for the rest of the season. I hope we don't meet in the finals.

 

[Dragz]

Umpires can influence the outcome of ANY game.

Cricket, Soccer, AFL, Rugby etc etc

But so can the players. Umpires are human and will make mistakes. Can't expect them to be perfect.

The only issue that concerns me is when they make decisions based on the players involved and fail to be consistent. And with AFL and the amount of interpretation involved and 3 separate umpires, there is going to be a huge variance within a game.

Did the umpires cost Hawthorn the match? No, the extended critical injuries during the match did. If your question is "Could an umpiring decsion have given us the chance to win the match?" then yes, it could of given us that chance.

Cracker of a game. One day we'll play Geelong and not get a whole raft of match ending injuries.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I sat and watched the replay this morning taking special note of the free kicks that were paid. The results were as follows (Geelong in bold, Hawthorn in italics):

First Quarter Frees for the Quarter - Geelong: 11 Hawthorn 1
Free Receiver Reason for Free
1. Chapman High (drops down when tackled to draw free)
1. Mitchell Holding
2. Enright Holding
3. Varcoe Dropping Ball (instant call, no time for disposal)
4. Johnson Hitting Arms (contact was on hands and ball)
5. Podsiadly Holding (clearly had hold of Gibson’s jumper – decision should have gone the other way – goal)
6. Corey High – (Dived head first into the pack courting free)
7. Selwood In the Back (threw himself forward, spread arms out to attract attention
8. Chapman High (drops down when tackled to draw free)
9. Chapman High (goal)
10. Selwood High (Ducks head into the tackle)
11. Taylor Hitting Arms (contact was on hands and ball)

Second Quarter Frees for the Quarter - Geelong: 6 Hawthorn 6
No. Player Reason
1. Hodge Holding ( nonsense free Guerra had already marked the ball beside him – 50 metres?)
1. Kelly Holding the ball
2. Puopolo High
3. Renouf Holding
2. Lonergan No idea
4. Schoemakers Holding
5. Gibson In the Back
3. Ottens Shepherding
4. Enright Holding the Ball (Roughead ridden into the ground – in the back)
5. Bartell Shepherding (Nonsense free kick)
6 Mackie Holding the Man
6. Renouf Holding the Man

Third Quarter Frees for the Quarter - Geelong: 1 Hawthorn 7
No. Player Reason
1. Sewell High
2. Renouf Holding
3. Mitchell Back
4. Mitchell Back
5. Roughead Holding
6 Lewis High
7 Breust Dropping the Ball
1 Hunt In the Back

Fourth Quarter Frees for the Quarter - Geelong: 6 Hawthorn 4
No. Player Reason
1 Vardy In the Back
2. Taylor Trip
1. Roughead Holding
3. ?Geelong Couldn’t tell –advantage played
4. Milburn High
5. ?Geelong Holding the Ball (five people dived in on the ball in a pack –ridiculous free)
6. Selwood High (He puts his head down and dives into Guerra’s hip not the other way around)
2. Schoenmakers Holding
3 Gibson Throw
4 Hodge High


Total Frees – Geelong: 24 Hawthorn 18

Winning the free kick count at this game correlates with winning the quarter. The free kick pattern corresponds with the periods of dominance by each team
It would be interesting to look at other games and see if this is also the case.

Geelong plays for frees much more effectively than Hawthorn does (and yes the head high tackle rule needs to be looked at. Players trying to milk free kicks such as Selwood and Chapman are creating the conditions where injuries will occur - it is not bravery, its gamesmanship)

Though the umpires usually got it right, the number of errors is still unacceptably high. I put this down to two things:
1. Human error (it's not an easy job)
2. Some ridiculous rules that encourage over umpiring

You do yourself no favours by only critically analysing the frees paid against your own side.

Disagree with almost all of your interpretations anyway.

 

[MinerBoy]

The way I see it, there weren't too many shocking decisions individually.

The problem is that Geelong seem to win the 50/50 decisions (or not be penalised for them) at an 80/20 ratio.

 

[Gaborone]

Lunchlady Doris: You do yourself no favours by only critically analysing the frees paid against your own side.

Disagree with almost all of your interpretations anyway.

Then perhaps Lunchlady Doris you need to watch the whole replay in slow motion.

The main point of the post though, is to draw attention to the fact that there is a clear correlation between who is getting the free kicks and who is 'on top' in the match. This in turn connects with a later post of mine which is related to the rules and umpiring and my concern that the introduction of technical rules (e.g. hitting the arms) has made the umpire a much greater player in the final result.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Lunchlady Doris: You do yourself no favours by only critically analysing the frees paid against your own side.

Disagree with almost all of your interpretations anyway.

Then perhaps Lunchlady Doris you need to watch the whole replay in slow motion.

The main point of the post though, is to draw attention to the fact that there is a clear correlation between who is getting the free kicks and who is 'on top' in the match. This in turn connects with a later post of mine which is related to the rules and umpiring and my concern that the introduction of technical rules (e.g. hitting the arms) has made the umpire a much greater player in the final result.

It's a logical fallacy. Could be and more likely to be the team that's already on top gets the free kicks.

Hitting the arms should be a free kick. What do you suggest? Remove umpires from the game? That's the only conclusion I can see from your thread.

By only analysing the frees paid to one side, you're just complaining that the umpiring cost you the game.

 

[Gaborone]

Yes, Lunchlady Doris, it could be that the team that is on top gets more free kicks, and it could also be the team that is on top is on top because it is getting an armchair ride.

As to hitting the arms there was no such rule in the VFL/AFL for 100 years (and we're not talking about pushing in the back or holding), and where there was a contest and the ball was not marked it was play on. Heavens, the players still push and shove each other, they actually make contact, and that is not a free kick. And they are allowed to shepherd if the ball is within 15 metres. Why this fixation on the arms? Was the AFL trying to use the rule change to build the excitement of players marking the ball? If so they have done the opposite, we now have the umpires paying more free kicks for shots on goal than players get from marking the ball. Like so many AFL decisions on the rules of the game in recent years they have created more problems than they were trying to fix.

That's why supporters get frustrated and angry

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I tihnk you'll struggle to find much support for your crusade against the chopping of the arms free kick. The AFL wanted to encourage more contested marking situations, which were disappearing from the game completely, and it worked imo.

Not sure if that rule is responsible for your team losing on the weekend, maybe the KPD injuries they are suffering at the moment didn't help.

 

[Hawks1994]

Of course the umpiring contributes somewhat to a result of any game for any team, but it isn't the major factor. The team must win the game off their own boot, and we didn't do this on Saturday night. The umpiring did not help what so ever but in the end we lost it.

Having said that, all the footy public wants from the umpires is CONSISTANTSY.

 

[Ricketts]

I'm the kind of guy who thinks that if the free kick count is 12-1 at quarter time, then one team has the right to complain about the umpires.

What if one team is dominating?

Like I said, it doesn't have to be equal.

 

[Prudster]

What if one team is dominating?

Like I said, it doesn't have to be equal.

19 points at quarter time, so nowhere near a domination, and i can guarantee that if the free kick count wasn't 12-1, the game would have been a lot closer.

I didn't say it had to be even, but there is a massive difference between even, and one team getting 12 times as many frees.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Not my work, nor is it everything, but from the first 15 minutes of the first quarter.

Vardy's 1st quarter mark and goal. Schoenmaker's left arm is approximately pointing towards the umpire, so he had clear view of the hold.

Free kick for holding the jumper. Umpire was behind Gibson when this was paid. Oh yeah, that was paid to Pods, not Gibson.

One of four or five high tackles on Hawthorn players that didn't result in free kicks. That's the umpires head at bottom of screen, and the player was slung around facing the umpire, so again clearly seen (without the ball too, just for added effect).

You could probably do the same 100 times in the game, but in a quarter where everything was only paid one way, some of these were glaring.

 

[Hawk Dork]

lucky that wasn't Selwood's head touching the back of Burgers arm or it would have been a free for over the shoulder

 

[Jaeger]

Thanks for posting those pics here Simon.

****ing umpires!

 

[westaussie76]

So over the whole umpiring thing, the AFL is doing it's best to destroy the game by over complicating and over officiating games.

Umpires have, will, and will continue to influence the outcome of certain games. I have stopped trying to make heads or tails of what is paid and what isn't paid on the field these days, only seems to raise my blood pressure. Just have to except it is what it is and move on, much the same as with the MRP!

 

[Hawks1994]

Nice work with those photos there especially the last one.

I say again CONSISTENTCY!!! Which by the way hasn't been aparent for about half the games i've seen this year ( and i watch a lot of footy)

 

[bak2bak8889]

Jeff Geishhead has had a look at those pictures and said that he's happy with the result, the money's in the bank and he's not giving it back!!!!

 

[savagelunchbox]

Jeff Geishhead has had a look at those pictures and said that he's happy with the result, the money's in the bank and he's not giving it back!!!!

Yeah apparently Buddy didn't have his hands in the air for the mark.

...so a leading, goal kicking forward is in the forward 50m, running at the player with the ball, has it kicked to him with no teammate near it and apparently he's going to act as a decoy?

I'd also like to push Jeff 'Geishhead' in the back and see if his hands go up or do they go to absorb the hit to the ground... interesting that one. Glaring overlook there Chief.

 

[Roby]

I review all the games each week, and I can categorically say that let's say each fortnight, on average, two to three results are manufactured due to umpiring inequity. So much is there influence, it's why I actually attribute "blatant umpiring errors" similar to the Champion Data algorithm, in devising the formula for the power rankings.

At least half the games each week have momentum swings which greatly influence the outcome of the scoreboard, so much so, that ladder or power rankings positions are almost negligent.

In other words the umpires can and have more influence than the best players, strategies, etc...

 

[Prudster]

I don't know if you can hang your hat on professional umpires. I remember the same discussions in the UK when they made the referees professional over there and it didn't make a huge amount of difference.

Officials making mistakes is the same in every quick team sport the world over. They have an impossible job to see everything and make split second decisions. I think things can go either way for teams, if I thought for a moment that officials were biased i would stop going and stop watching sport.

I honestly don't think fans can make a fair judgement about umpires as we see the game from unbelievable bias. If you had won that game we would have fans complaining about umpiring decisions (especially if Buddy was paid that one at the end).

I have great respect for your club, good luck for the rest of the season. I hope we don't meet in the finals.

I'm pretty sure most people aren't that concerned about mistakes, as everyone does make them. What we are concerned about is the lack of consistency, between weeks, and even between games. A 12-1 free kick count should probably never happen, unless there is a 90 point blowout in the first quarter. And the umpires then compound the error by 'evening up'. Pretyt unprofessional.