Do we the wider footy public support Essendon as per Little's comment today?

[Jack Gun Cyril Stun]

****. Just look at the poll on the top of this page.

Ok finally caught up on this thread...now lol...too funny, wont stop Fletched though!

 

[Chameleon75]

Yeah but if you had to do it on the public record you think you would throw the piece of paper in front of someone else and ask; how much does this bullshit stink based on the other bullshit we have put forward. You know when you have to sell something and you have time before hand you run it through your own bullshitometer and gauge will it be bought?

yes but who is the target audience? Suggest he's preaching to the choir.

 

[The_Reaper]

yes but who is the target audience? Suggest he's preaching to the choir.

Good point.
Essendon don't want to be hated by the the other seventeen teams but they can survive as a club and even still prosper if they keep the fans.

The rest of the football public won't think any worse of the players than they current do if the players do get suspended. The Essendon fans however might give up on the club.

 

[The Dodger]

****. Just look at the poll on the top of this page.

Too hard to understand

Just wanted to show the difference in where the blame lies for these things.

 

[The Dodger]

yes but who is the target audience? Suggest he's preaching to the choir.

Completely understand, just think it isn't too hard to try and make the story more believable and give the fans a chance to hang their hat on something. Help them out a bit.

 

[Chameleon75]

Good point.
Essendon don't want to be hated by the the other seventeen teams but they can survive as a club and even still prosper if they keep the fans.

The rest of the football public won't think any worse of the players than they current do if the players do get suspended. The Essendon fans however might give up on the club.

Completely understand, just think it isn't too hard to try and make the story more believable and give the fans a chance to hang their hat on something. Help them out a bit.

I agree a little more credibility would go further, but in its absence just throw in lots of fighting words and will get lapped up.

 

[Jam123]

Well the wider football community are certainly in agreement…

Really the amount of vitriol in this thread is ridiculous. You want the whole club gone based on the actions of a few individuals? You seem to be thinking that all of the Essendon supporters think the same.

Talking about generalisation, what do you think about Monfries, Crameri or Gumbleton? Should Monfries be among the 34 players and they win the premiership, would Port have an * next to their premiership? If Gumbleton plays in Fremantle's premiership, would they have an * next to their premiership? Are Port cheating by letting a player like Monfries play with this cloud hanging on top of his head? Did Fremantle and Western Bulldogs cheat by knowingly getting a questionable player to boost their chances of a premiership? Or is it innocent until proven guilty for these players?

Did Port step him down last year and do the 'honourable thing'? Were the finals compromised because he played? According to most here, each player is responsible. If there were infractions heading their way, would their club's reputation be tarnished for drafting and playing such players? I mean they actively traded for players who were accused of doping and played them without serving their suspensions. Or is that the way of Australian Sport these days?

If Essendon have an * to you, then so do Port, Bulldogs and Fremantle to me. Not that I hate Port, Bulldogs or Fremantle. Quite the opposite. While everyone is tearing the players at Essendon apart, those other players are sitting quietly at their own respective clubs. In fact, Bulldogs, Port and Fremantle supporters are willing to see their own club play these questionable players and cheering them on, while the same supporters are having a go at our supporters for cheering the players and backing our boys. If you were true to your words, you would have pressured your respective clubs to stand those players down pending on further investigation. But because it affects your club, it is fine to turn a blind eye. Well because it affects my club, is it fine for me to turn a blind eye too? And you don't understand the mentality of a lot of Essendon supporters while you are unknowingly doing it too? Well here is a perspective of what it is like. The way Essendon supporters are now is an insight to how your respective supporter base would be should they be in Essendon's situation. Don't have to look far with the defensive mindset that Sydney supporters have over COLA.

If everyone else were to be in agreement that the players were responsible and shouldn't be playing now, then it doen't matter what colour jumper they are wearing. There is no ifs or buts about that. Don't see anyone nullifying any of Crameri's goals because he is a 'drug cheat', certainly not Bulldogs supporters.

FWIW, I am not stating my opinion on what has happened at the club and who stays and who goes. Not going to discuss that here.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

Lets put Bombers fans aside - and put those with a financial interest at stake in the game also aside (e.g all footy media employees).

For regular fans - Id say it was 95% against. 5% for Bombers.

That 5% are usually hardcore right wingers who support them on ideological grounds - e.g Alan Jones, Andrew Bolt listeners who think the AFL are a pack of commies and hate all government agencies so just hate ASADA for simply existing.

surely as a st Kilda fan, given what has happened to ahmed saad you could at least acknowledge that this whole issue is ludicrously over-regulated in the same manner that all regulatory agencies do. they don't understand something so they just throw a blanket rule over the whole thing, with no room for common sense or judgement.

 

[KennyHunter9]

Well the wider football community are certainly in agreement…

Really the amount of vitriol in this thread is ridiculous. You want the whole club gone based on the actions of a few individuals? You seem to be thinking that all of the Essendon supporters think the same.

Talking about generalisation, what do you think about Monfries, Crameri or Gumbleton? Should Monfries be among the 34 players and they win the premiership, would Port have an * next to their premiership? If Gumbleton plays in Fremantle's premiership, would they have an * next to their premiership? Are Port cheating by letting a player like Monfries play with this cloud hanging on top of his head? Did Fremantle and Western Bulldogs cheat by knowingly getting a questionable player to boost their chances of a premiership? Or is it innocent until proven guilty for these players?

Did Port step him down last year and do the 'honourable thing'? Were the finals compromised because he played? According to most here, each player is responsible. If there were infractions heading their way, would their club's reputation be tarnished for drafting and playing such players? I mean they actively traded for players who were accused of doping and played them without serving their suspensions. Or is that the way of Australian Sport these days?

If Essendon have an * to you, then so do Port, Bulldogs and Fremantle to me. Not that I hate Port, Bulldogs or Fremantle. Quite the opposite. While everyone is tearing the players at Essendon apart, those other players are sitting quietly at their own respective clubs. In fact, Bulldogs, Port and Fremantle supporters are willing to see their own club play these questionable players and cheering them on, while the same supporters are having a go at our supporters for cheering the players and backing our boys. If you were true to your words, you would have pressured your respective clubs to stand those players down pending on further investigation. But because it affects your club, it is fine to turn a blind eye. Well because it affects my club, is it fine for me to turn a blind eye too? And you don't understand the mentality of a lot of Essendon supporters while you are unknowingly doing it too? Well here is a perspective of what it is like. The way Essendon supporters are now is an insight to how your respective supporter base would be should they be in Essendon's situation. Don't have to look far with the defensive mindset that Sydney supporters have over COLA.

If everyone else were to be in agreement that the players were responsible and shouldn't be playing now, then it doen't matter what colour jumper they are wearing. There is no ifs or buts about that. Don't see anyone nullifying any of Crameri's goals because he is a 'drug cheat', certainly not Bulldogs supporters.

FWIW, I am not stating my opinion on what has happened at the club and who stays and who goes. Not going to discuss that here.

1. Actions of a few? Not really. Try 50 or so people: players, coaches, board and management. Stupid players who did not step back from thousands of injections - including the captain who should know better. Coaches who knew about it all, in fact designed it and took injections themselves - and now are on a $1m sabbatical. Management who have feigned cooperation but tried to compromise every part of the process. And a board, supposedly unanimous in its view that EFC should challenge, on the basis of a technicality, without actually addressing the substance of the claim.

2. The players should have stood down or be stood down. All of them who submitted to hundreds of injections. EFC knew what was being administered, when and in what volumes (see the blue below, which is just a taste). Ex-EFC as well as current should have been stood down. But when pretty much a whole club is in this mess, and it is *different.

3. Not every supporter base would act this way because not every supporter-base has been completely seduced by a former champion footballer and champion narcissist. When CFC were done for salary cap cheating, we voted out the president. There was no #standbyelliot.

 

[Jam123]

1. Actions of a few? Not really. Try 50 or so people: players, coaches, board and management. Stupid players who did not step back from thousands of injections - including the captain who should know better. Coaches who knew about it all, in fact designed it and took injections themselves - and now are on a $1m sabbatical. Management who have feigned cooperation but tried to compromise every part of the process. And a board, supposedly unanimous in its view that EFC should challenge, on the basis of a technicality, without actually addressing the substance of the claim.

2. The players should have stood down or be stood down. All of them who submitted to hundreds of injections. EFC knew what was being administered, when and in what volumes (see the blue below, which is just a taste). Ex-EFC as well as current should have been stood down. But when pretty much a whole club is in this mess, and it is *different.

3. Not every supporter base would act this way because not every supporter-base has been completely seduced by a former champion footballer and champion narcissist. When CFC were done for salary cap cheating, we voted out the president. There was no #standbyelliot.

So according to you, it isn't just Essendon who actively cheated. Port, Bulldogs and Fremantle must have done so too by knowingly playing such players.
I'm not going to comment on Essendon's situation on here so not going to address the rest.

 

[estibador]

So according to you, it isn't just Essendon who actively cheated. Port, Bulldogs and Fremantle must have done so too by knowingly playing such players.

1stly: Gumby has never even played a game for Freo.

2ndly: if he received a notice I would absolutely prefer him to break ranks and take a 6 month suspension rather than try drag a bunch of bullshit through the courts just so we can play him in September. If that helps bring down the cheating, corrupt Bombers so much the better.

 

[DudleyB]

Well the wider football community are certainly in agreement…

Really the amount of vitriol in this thread is ridiculous. You want the whole club gone based on the actions of a few individuals? You seem to be thinking that all of the Essendon supporters think the same.

Talking about generalisation, what do you think about Monfries, Crameri or Gumbleton? Should Monfries be among the 34 players and they win the premiership, would Port have an * next to their premiership? If Gumbleton plays in Fremantle's premiership, would they have an * next to their premiership? Are Port cheating by letting a player like Monfries play with this cloud hanging on top of his head? Did Fremantle and Western Bulldogs cheat by knowingly getting a questionable player to boost their chances of a premiership? Or is it innocent until proven guilty for these players?

Did Port step him down last year and do the 'honourable thing'? Were the finals compromised because he played? According to most here, each player is responsible. If there were infractions heading their way, would their club's reputation be tarnished for drafting and playing such players? I mean they actively traded for players who were accused of doping and played them without serving their suspensions. Or is that the way of Australian Sport these days?

If Essendon have an * to you, then so do Port, Bulldogs and Fremantle to me. Not that I hate Port, Bulldogs or Fremantle. Quite the opposite. While everyone is tearing the players at Essendon apart, those other players are sitting quietly at their own respective clubs. In fact, Bulldogs, Port and Fremantle supporters are willing to see their own club play these questionable players and cheering them on, while the same supporters are having a go at our supporters for cheering the players and backing our boys. If you were true to your words, you would have pressured your respective clubs to stand those players down pending on further investigation. But because it affects your club, it is fine to turn a blind eye. Well because it affects my club, is it fine for me to turn a blind eye too? And you don't understand the mentality of a lot of Essendon supporters while you are unknowingly doing it too? Well here is a perspective of what it is like. The way Essendon supporters are now is an insight to how your respective supporter base would be should they be in Essendon's situation. Don't have to look far with the defensive mindset that Sydney supporters have over COLA.

If everyone else were to be in agreement that the players were responsible and shouldn't be playing now, then it doen't matter what colour jumper they are wearing. There is no ifs or buts about that. Don't see anyone nullifying any of Crameri's goals because he is a 'drug cheat', certainly not Bulldogs supporters.

FWIW, I am not stating my opinion on what has happened at the club and who stays and who goes. Not going to discuss that here.

Were you born stupid?

The whole point of what everyone is saying is this isn't about the players - it is the systematic and concerted nature of the drug taking/cheating/injection program that is the issue. It is the organisation all the official level - all the way to the CEO.
This is why your examples of the Bulldogs and Port have an * next to their name is idiotic and spurious.

For instance - no one in Australia holds the lower level employees of James Hardie responsible for the asbestos tragedy - in fact the low level employees are considered victims! No-one would hold some company responsible if they later employed some foot soldier who used to work for James Hardie - same goes for Monfries, Crameri etc. They are just like foot soldiers/low level employees at James Hardie.

Same goes here - we should be holding the whole club and all the high level officials accountable for their cheating and the subsequent cover-up.

As for the individual players involved (the foot soldiers) - they may need to all take a 6 month paid holiday/ban yes.

But for those who want to fight it (an analogy would be for a James Hardie employee who continued to lie to protect and engage in a cover- up on behalf the company)- well be prepared to cop your 24 months and then no sympathy.

 

[melbournemartin]

I support the Essendon players.

As for the club, in terms of organising this whole fiasco, they have absolutely none of my support. Yes, I hope they get fair treatment and ASADA isn't exactly handling this situation in the best way, but there has to be a significant punishment for this.

 

[Jam123]

1stly: Gumby has never even played a game for Freo.

2ndly: if he received a notice I would absolutely prefer him to break ranks and take a 6 month suspension rather than try drag a bunch of bullshit through the courts so we can play him in September. If that helps bring down the cheating, corrupt Bombers so much the better.

So no, don't try lump me in with the denialist Essendon supporters.

I know that he hasn't played for Fremantle, but Fremantle actively traded to get a questionable player. He hasn't played a game for Fremantle because he is injured. My point is not just about what is happening now, but the view of the Essendon players over the last 17 months. The general public perceived Essendon as compromising the competition by having our players play while this was over our heads. Yet Monfries played finals. Many were of the opinion that our players should be stood down, yet there is no mention of some of these ex-Essendon players. Crameri was considered a cheat last year, yet isn't this year? You guys are apparently entitled to cheer these players on, yet we aren't?

Essendon were considered cheats last year, yet Bulldogs, Fremantle and Port aren't? Apparently the peptides have lasting effects and give us an advantage for years right? Does it wear off for these players as soon as they leave Essendon?

I am not saying that I think that Bulldogs, Fremantle and Port are cheats. Just putting it out there.

 

[MightyPies1]

Really the amount of vitriol in this thread is ridiculous. You want the whole club gone based on the actions of a few individuals?

A few individuals are being placed BIGGER than the club, most notably James Hird.

Talking about generalisation, what do you think about Monfries, Crameri or Gumbleton?

I don't think it's any different to players on Essedon's list, there's sympathy for the players.

Should Monfries be among the 34 players and they win the premiership, would Port have an * next to their premiership? If Gumbleton plays in Fremantle's premiership, would they have an * next to their premiership? Are Port cheating by letting a player like Monfries play with this cloud hanging on top of his head? Did Fremantle and Western Bulldogs cheat by knowingly getting a questionable player to boost their chances of a premiership? Or is it innocent until proven guilty for these players?

The difference is the Essendon Football Club tried to cheat. That's why the EFC would have had an * to it's name if it achieved anything of note. Most absurd comparison that is a complete waste of time to properly respond to.

Did Port step him down last year and do the 'honourable thing'? Were the finals compromised because he played? According to most here, each player is responsible. If there were infractions heading their way, would their club's reputation be tarnished for drafting and playing such players? I mean they actively traded for players who were accused of doping and played them without serving their suspensions. Or is that the way of Australian Sport these days?

Again, stupid comparison.

If everyone else were to be in agreement that the players were responsible and shouldn't be playing now, then it doen't matter what colour jumper they are wearing. There is no ifs or buts about that. Don't see anyone nullifying any of Crameri's goals because he is a 'drug cheat', certainly not Bulldogs supporters.

I understand that any Essendon supporter left defending their club must be a few sandwiches short of a picnic, but fair dinkum you came up with this. ^^^^^^^^

FWIW, I am not stating my opinion on what has happened at the club and who stays and who goes. Not going to discuss that here.

Fair Dinkum,

I honestly think all the smart Essendon supporters have all given up on the game, changed teams cause if this argument is the best they can come up with then fair dincum.

Essendon Football Club will be forever tarnished and I think it is, right now, really embarrassing to support Essendon.

 

[Jam123]

Were you born stupid?

The whole point of what everyone is saying is this isn't about the players - it is the systematic and concerted nature of the drug taking/cheating/injection program that is the issue. It is the organisation all the official level - all the way to the CEO.
This is why your examples of the Bulldogs and Port have an * next to their name is idiotic and spurious.

For instance - no one in Australia holds the lower level employees of James Hardie responsible for the asbestos tragedy - in fact the low level employees are considered victims! No-one would hold some company responsible if they later employed some foot soldier who used to work for James Hardie - same goes for Monfries, Crameri etc. They are just like foot soldiers/low level employees at James Hardie.

Same goes here - we should be holding the whole club and all the high level officials accountable for their cheating and the subsequent cover-up.

As for the individual players involved (the foot soldiers) - they may need to all take a 6 month paid holiday/ban yes.

But for those who want to fight it (an analogy would be for a James Hardie employee who continued to lie to protect and engage in a cover- up on behalf the company)- well be prepared to cop your 24 months and then no sympathy.

So why are the players perceived to be responsible for doping by the general public? Wasn't Jobe booed last year?

Why is it that Jobe has to lose his brownlow if he was a foot soldier?

 

[BownAndGold75]

So why are the players perceived to be responsible for doping by the general public? Wasn't Jobe booed last year?

Why is it that Jobe has to lose his brownlow if he was a foot soldier?

Players get their suspensions, Jobe lose his brownlow, they all sue Essendon for massive damages. That will be justice.

 

[DudleyB]

So why are the players perceived to be responsible for doping by the general public? Wasn't Jobe booed last year?

Why is it that Jobe has to lose his brownlow if he was a foot soldier?

'fraid so under strict liability. Yep. Thats how the law is. Even the foot soldiers have to cop it.
Might be harsh - but it is what is.

Although I would add to that Jobe is a higher rank than a foot soldier. Club Captain and was 27yo in 2012 - So he is closer to being an executive than a foot soldier - and therefore subject to some accountability.

I'd call Hibberd or Howlett or Alex Browne etc etc foot soldiers in 2012

 

[Jam123]

A few individuals are being placed BIGGER than the club, most notably James Hird.

You seem to be thinking that all of the Essendon supporters think the same.



I don't think it's any different to players on Essedon's list, there's sympathy for the players.




The difference is the Essendon Football Club tried to cheat. That's why the EFC would have had an * to it's name if it achieved anything of note. Most absurd comparison that is a complete waste of time to properly respond to.

Did Port step him down last year and do the 'honourable thing'? Were the finals compromised because he played? According to most here, each player is responsible. If there were infractions heading their way, would their club's reputation be tarnished for drafting and playing such players? I mean they actively traded for players who were accused of doping and played them without serving their suspensions. Or is that the way of Australian Sport these days?

Again, stupid comparison.




I understand that any Essendon supporter left defending their club must be a few sandwiches short of a picnic, but fair dinkum you came up with this. ^^^^^^^^



Fair Dinkum,

I honestly think all the smart Essendon supporters have all given up on the game, changed teams cause if this argument is the best they can come up with then fair dincum.

Essendon Football Club will be forever tarnished and I think it is, right now, really embarrassing to support Essendon.

My comments are leaving Essendon out of this and I'm not defending Essendon. Wouldn't ever change teams. I started liking AFL because of Essendon and therefore right now, I only care about Essendon. Don't care about any other club or the AFL for that matter.

According to the general public, these peds used by the players last for a few years. So why is it that the public pressure wasn't on Monfries to step down last year? Don't tell me that the players have the public's sympathy now when Jobe was referred to as a drug cheat. So why do these players receive different treatment based on who they play for?

 

[Jam123]

'fraid so under strict liability. Yep. Thats how the law is. Even the foot soldiers have to cop it.
Might be harsh - but it is what is.

So will Monfries lose his premiership medal should Port win the premiership? Will the grand final be compromised because he was playing? Or does this only apply when the player plays for Essendon? I'm not talking about the club. i'm talking about the player's reputation

 

[BownAndGold75]

'fraid so under strict liability. Yep. Thats how the law is. Even the foot soldiers have to cop it.
Might be harsh - but it is what is.

It's not harsh at all, the players could ans should get full compensation by suing EFC. Furthermore they will come back in 6 months or 2 years with the full support of the public. EFC are trying very hard to make it look like they are one with the players, when in fact they are on opposite sides.

 

[DudleyB]

My comments are leaving Essendon out of this and I'm not defending Essendon. Wouldn't ever change teams. I started liking AFL because of Essendon and therefore right now, I only care about Essendon. Don't care about any other club or the AFL for that matter.

According to the general public, these peds used by the players last for a few years. So why is it that the public pressure wasn't on Monfries to step down last year? Don't tell me that the players have the public's sympathy now when Jobe was referred to as a drug cheat. So why do these players receive different treatment based on who they play for?

Cos Jobe is the captain of a team of drug cheats and most people havent heard of Angus Monfries.
Pretty fricking obvious.

Being Captain makes you almost part of the 'administration/officialdom/executive' and therefore fair game for abuse.

 

[DudleyB]

It's not harsh at all, the players could ans should get full compensation by suing EFC. Furthermore they will come back in 6 months or 2 years with the full support of the public. EFC are trying very hard to make it look like they are one with the players, when in fact they are on opposite sides.

Yep - agree with that. I was just referring to the general concept of strict liability.

 

[Perry Pie]

So why are the players perceived to be responsible for doping by the general public? Wasn't Jobe booed last year?

Why is it that Jobe has to lose his brownlow if he was a foot soldier?

I dont think most of the general public really blame the players - they do have some responsibility and as others have said are held accountable under strict liability rules. Jobe should not have been booed.
Sadly I think the club is busy defending the people really responsible and hanging the players out to dry (because of the strict liability rules).
Very sad to see a great club mislead its fans and abuse its players.

 

[Jam123]

Cos Jobe is the captain of a team of drug cheats and most people havent heard of Angus Monfries.
Pretty fricking obvious.

Being Captain makes you almost part of the 'administration/officialdom/executive' and therefore fair game for abuse.

So it is based on the club
I remember Crameri being referred to as a drug cheat last year. Is he still a drug cheat or is that a thing of the past?