Dons players could launch legal action to end investigation

[Duckworth]

"Mr Alavi was supplying peptides Thymosin Beta 4 and Hexarelin, both banned by WADA because of their performance-enhancing effects, to former Essendon sports scientist Stephen Dank. Essendon Football Club invoices suggest both substances were supplied to the club. Mr Dank has strenuously denied giving players anything illegal or harmful."



Wanna try that again?

You mean the invoices that were re-credited? Good work on telling only the part of the story that fits your agenda.

On 29 February 2012, Como issued an amended invoice to the Club which re-credited the Club for the costs of the Hexarelin and “peptide Thymosin”.

 

[Barry Zuckercorn]

'Good Thymosin' refers to 'Thymomodulin'.

Yep I'd buy that.

 

[Barry Zuckercorn]

I think you can see essendon is not the team it should be, which probably reflects the distraction.

Essendon should not be the team you think it should be anyway. So **** em.

 

[GarnerSmash]

You mean the invoices that were re-credited? Good work on telling only the part of the story that fits your agenda.

The very next part of the AFL document states:

27. In late May 2012 Dank discovered that the Thymosin he had been providing the play
ers (Thymosin Beta-4) was in fact prohibited

 

[carlton2dabone]

You mean the invoices that were re-credited? Good work on telling only the part of the story that fits your agenda.

We have players who have made admissions that they received injections of thymosin, Dank has confirmed he injected thymosin, Hird and Dank discussed injecting players with Thymosin, etc.

So if we know that Thymosin was used, then these 2 items from the very same source that you used to try and back up your argument might be of interest to you. I have highlighted the most important parts so you don't miss them.


25. The Club was originally billed by Alavi for 7 vials of Hexarelin (in addition to those
supplied on 10 January 2012) and 26 vials of “peptide Thymosin” (at a combined cost of
$9860) which are listed on the invoice as having been delivered on 18 January 2012.

34. There is no record of Como Compounding Pharmacy having supplied the Club with
“Thymomodulin (Thymosin)”. The only relevant invoice relates to “Peptide Thymosin” –
but Como Compounding Pharmacy subsequently reversed that transaction (debit to credit)



Invoices for Thymosin (bad kind) exist, these invoices state the product was delivered.

Tell me how I was wrong when I pointed out earlier there are invoices and the product was delivered.

If the bad kind of Thymosin was actually returned and the club re-credited, then explain where the thymosin that Dank and the players have confirmed was used came from.

 

[jenny61_99]

'Good Thymosin' refers to 'Thymomodulin'.

Which is for immuno suppressed patients - you know, AIDS/HIV or cancer patients. I wonder which doctor prescribed this drug for players?

 

[manboob]

I'd say it was given so that you could flog them harder on the track without any of the immune system weakening that comes from being over-worked. To put it in layman's terms.

 

[threesixpio]

I had thought that as well, Watson was left with the impression, however, that he was given the legal kind.

If Watson was told that Thymosin would assist him with things that the bad Thymosin could not possibly assist him with then I don't think being told it was not prohibited is relevant. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. I suppose the argument for players might be they were mislead as to what substance was injected into them. Fair enough to explore that but this should be explored upon the basis of the nature and identification of the actual substance and not an incorrect assertion that it is not prohibited.

 

[SunshineBoy]

Oh really?

Let me lay it out for you:


Players being injected with thymosin is not even a point of contention.

We have consent forms listing injections of thymosin that are signed by the players, we have texts between Dank and Hird talking about injecting players with thymosin and we have most important of all, player admissions that they were injected with thymosin.


The point of contention is whether it was the good thymosin or the bad thymosin.
Now lets way up the corroborating evidence supporting each of the kind of thymosin being used.

Bad Thymosin.

1) Orders, invoices and delivery to the club (meaning a chain of supply making its way to the club)


Good Thymosin

1) No evidence that this kind was ever ordered, paid for and delivered to club premises.


Now, you being such a 'Big city lawyer', please tell us which version of events would pass the 'balance of probabilities' threshold?

EFA

 

[SunshineBoy]

Pity that doesn't actually exist outside of your imagination. The only Thymosin invoice paid for by the club refers to "Thymosin peptide", not TB4.

was that before or after the signature was added?

 

[SunshineBoy]

You mean the invoices that were re-credited? Good work on telling only the part of the story that fits your agenda.

when exactly was the invoice recredited? was it after or before the signature was added?

 

[nineteen eighty]

when exactly was the invoice recredited? was it after or before the signature was added?

Further to this, anyone like to explain away the text exchange between Dank, Alavi and Charter re specific dosage instructions for TB4.

SPECIFIC!!!!

 

[Armchair Critic]

Well the 'Good Thymosin, Bad Thymosin' argument is that Dank confirmed with at least one player that he was administering the legal kind of thymosin. I think a court might be interested in that.

I reckon a court would laugh at it and ask Jobe whether Dank gave him a lollypop when he was finished getting his needles.

http://search.medicinenet.com/searc...lt.aspx?Searchwhat=1&query=good+thymosin&I1=+

 

[Armchair Critic]

'Good Thymosin' refers to 'Thymomodulin'.

For this month, at other times Essendon were claiming it was Thymosin Alpha.

http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/invoice-backs-claims-of-banned-peptide-use-20130704-2pezn.html

 

[jenny61_99]

So the recommended dosage of TB4 is what charter told dank and what appeared on player consents:

The recommendation for the following intervention for you: 1 Thymosin injection once a week for six weeks and then 1 injection per month,''

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/...peptide-use-20130704-2pezn.html#ixzz32mch0eVb

The recommended dosage for thymomodulin is:

The following dosage is recommended: 10-20 mg/day for 30 days followed by 20-50 mg/week. Continued administration, the dosage, the duration of the treatment depend on the therapeutic effect and the immunological results.

 

[TheGodDelusion]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-in-doctor-shopping-to-beat-ban-20130722-2qf3x.html

"Mr Alavi was supplying peptides Thymosin Beta 4 and Hexarelin, both banned by WADA because of their performance-enhancing effects, to former Essendon sports scientist Stephen Dank.

Essendon Football Club invoices suggest both substances were supplied to the club. Mr Dank has strenuously denied giving players anything illegal or harmful."

1. Supplying Dank does not equate to supplying Essendon. As Dank had outside business interests you cannot simply assume proof of supply to Dank as proof of supply to Essendon.

2. Bullshit. The only Thymosin referenced on ay invoice sent to/paid for specifies "Peptide Thymosin", which does not suggest it was one sort or the other.

Wanna try that again?

Right back atcha.

We have players who have made admissions that they received injections of thymosin, Dank has confirmed he injected thymosin, Hird and Dank discussed injecting players with Thymosin, etc.

So if we know that Thymosin was used, then these 2 items from the very same source that you used to try and back up your argument might be of interest to you. I have highlighted the most important parts so you don't miss them.


25. The Club was originally billed by Alavi for 7 vials of Hexarelin (in addition to those
supplied on 10 January 2012) and 26 vials of “peptide Thymosin” (at a combined cost of
$9860) which are listed on the invoice as having been delivered on 18 January 2012.

34. There is no record of Como Compounding Pharmacy having supplied the Club with
“Thymomodulin (Thymosin)”. The only relevant invoice relates to “Peptide Thymosin” –
but Como Compounding Pharmacy subsequently reversed that transaction (debit to credit)



Invoices for Thymosin (bad kind) exist, these invoices state the product was delivered.

Tell me how I was wrong when I pointed out earlier there are invoices and the product was delivered.

If the bad kind of Thymosin was actually returned and the club re-credited, then explain where the thymosin that Dank and the players have confirmed was used came from.

Again, bullshit. The only invoice for Thymosin that exists specifies "Peptide Thymosin". It does not specify the "bad kind" or the "good kind".

 

[jenny61_99]

1. Supplying Dank does not equate to supplying Essendon. As Dank had outside business interests you cannot simply assume proof of supply to Dank as proof of supply to Essendon.

2. Bullshit. The only Thymosin referenced on ay invoice sent to/paid for specifies "Peptide Thymosin", which does not suggest it was one sort or the other.



Right back atcha.



Again, bullshit. The only invoice for Thymosin that exists specifies "Peptide Thymosin". It does not specify the "bad kind" or the "good kind".

How convenient.

 

[Duckworth]

Invoices for Thymosin (bad kind) exist, these invoices state the product was delivered.

Tell me how I was wrong when I pointed out earlier there are invoices and the product was delivered.

If the bad kind of Thymosin was actually returned and the club re-credited, then explain where the thymosin that Dank and the players have confirmed was used came from.

There are invoices for 'thymosin' that are 'unspecified' you do not know which kind it was. Those same invoices were all re-credited in full. As such, according to those invoices Essendon did not pay for any thymosin.

 

[Laphroaig]

Again, bullshit. The only invoice for Thymosin that exists specifies "Peptide Thymosin". It does not specify the "bad kind" or the "good kind".

So as long as we can demonstrate that there was an AIDS epidemic at Windy Hill, that'd be OK.

 

[TheGodDelusion]

How convenient.

Maybe so, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no evidence of invoices paid by Essendon for TB4. Other evidence may exist (and no -one here knows exactly what ASADA has gathered) that is enough to meet the required standard, however C2DB's claim that the invoices do that is IMO wrong, as they do not show what he purports them to show.

 

[TheGodDelusion]

So as long as we can demonstrate that there was an AIDS epidemic at Windy Hill, that'd be OK.

As long as you can also demonstrate that there is no other reason that any of the other non-prohibited forms of Thymosin could have been used for, go for broke. For mine the dosages on the consent forms are more of a worry than whether there was an outbreak of HIV......

 

[jenny61_99]

Maybe so, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no evidence of invoices paid by Essendon for TB4. Other evidence may exist (and no -one here knows exactly what ASADA has gathered) that is enough to meet the required standard, however C2DB's claim that the invoices do that is IMO wrong, as they do not show what he purports them to show.

That you know of. I recall that there was an invoice paid and later credited. I can't recall if that was before or after Dank had Alavi doctor the receipt. So forgive me for believing there is far more likelihood of Essendon paying for and using TB4 than there is of thymomodulin.

 

[Spongebob]

It will all be cleared up when Mr Alavi turns over the individual prescriptions for the drugs supplied.

Of course, that requires some o f the doctors under investigation by AHPRA after the doctor shopping to have written the correct thymosin. Otherwise, how could anything be dispensed?

 

[TheGodDelusion]

That you know of.

That goes without saying, but if it's not in the public records how would C2DB know about it??

I recall that there was an invoice paid and later credited. I can't recall if that was before or after Dank had Alavi doctor the receipt.

Yes there was, it references Hexeralin & Thymosin, without specifying the specific type of Thymosin. Alavi didn't doctor the receipt, he sent a document stating what had been supplied was WADA compliant, that was supposedly signed in Feb but was likely signed in June. It bemuses me that people make such a big deal of this when the same people don't bat an eyelid at Clothier adding information to notes about a meeting several months after the fact.

So forgive me for believing there is far more likelihood of Essendon paying for and using TB4 than there is of thymomodulin.

Of course you are forgiven! Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but yours and mine doesn't mean anything when it comes to ASADA obtaining the required level of proof.

 

[jenny61_99]

25. The Club was originally billed by Alavi for 7 vials of Hexarelin (in addition to those
supplied on 10 January 2012) and 26 vials of “peptide Thymosin” (at a combined cost of
$9860) which are listed on the invoice as having been delivered on 18 January 2012.
26. On 29 February 2012, Como issued an amended invoice to the Club which re-credited the
Club for the costs of the Hexarelin and “peptide Thymosin”.
27. In late May 2012 Dank discovered that the Thymosin he had been providing the players
(Thymosin Beta-4) was in fact prohibited.
30. A document purportedly dated 27 February 2012 and purportedly signed by Alavi attests to
the “fact” that “the product Thymomodulin (Thymosin) is compounded at the premises [of
Como Compounding Pharmacy] in [a] sterile laboratory [and that it] does not contain any
banned substances in accordance with the WADA code”.
31. On 26 June 2012, Dank emailed Alavi an unsigned version of the document which was
already dated 27 February 2012.
The following day (27 June 2012), Alavi sent the same
document back to Dank by email - the only difference being the appearance of Alavi’s
signature.
32. It is reasonably likely that Dank created the document signed by Alavi and backdated it by
several months (actual date of signing 27 June 2012 – purported date of signing 27
February 2012).

_______________
No, nothing sus going on here.