Discussion Drafting Performance StKilda vs Matt Burgen etc.

[Axcellence]

Caveat Emptor

Pelchen's 2nd & 3rd picks in the 2005 draft, Beau Muston and Beau Dowler fell down the draft order due to injury concerns, & played less than 25 games between them.


http://www.vicfootball.com.au/vic-football-articles/2005/11/27/discards-rejected-again/

Hawthorn was the major beneficiary of the injury plague. The Hawks were able to recruit the two Beaus - Dowler and Muston - because no other club, with the possible exception of Collingwood, had sufficient early picks to punt on Dowler's pelvis holding together and Muston winning his battle of wounded knee.

And their first pick Mitch Thorp (pick before selwood) got delisted for being a spud, not due to injury issues. Recruitment can be a gamble. Hopefully, Pelchen would remember his experiences with such picks. Stringer came back from a broken leg and still played well. Usually, it's only 2nd year when you get back to full fitness once you break a leg.

 

[stkildathunda]

I don't think any coach could've save Heyne.

Had so much talent and promise. Had ability to hit bloke on chest 50m away, something noone else in our side can really do. I thought he might been worth persisting with for another year, but just injured shoulder late and put him behind 8-ball last year.

 

[Axcellence]

Had so much talent and promise. Had ability to hit bloke on chest 50m away, something noone else in our side can really do. I thought he might been worth persisting with for another year, but just injured shoulder late and put him behind 8-ball last year.

Well, he did get another shot at Carlton, still did nothing and got delisted again...

 

[mad-saint-guy]

2006:
AFL Phantom:
R1 Mitch Thorpe not Available so dodged a bullet, 2nd choice J Riewoldt (5)
R2 Will Schoefield (4)
R4 Hayden Kiel (0)
R5 Clarke Keating(0)
Also Stefan Martin (0) - Brett Collins (0)

I wouldn't put Martin as 0. He was linked to St Kilda way, way back when he was playing with Stewie Loewe's old side and Stewie publicly said St Kilda should draft him. He's no world beater, but a competent tall utility who would have been a huge help in our ruck issues this year. He can go back as well, so I think he would have been a regular this year.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Well, he did get another shot at Carlton, still did nothing and got delisted again...

I remember that Bourkey45 (or some number) LOVED him - thought he was the bees-knees. He was ecstatic when we got him.

I don't think we can underestimate the value of the Development Academy. I think Gaertner is a good case in point - his dad was a regular poster here for a while, and it became patently obvious from his comments that Gaertner had just got to the point where he hated playing footy. That just screams of poor environment, I reckon - just in terms of developing youth and making them feel like there's a point. You take away a kid's hope, that they'll live the dream of AFL, and seriously, why would they bust their guts out there in Sandy?

Ross was - and is - a fantastic coach. His biggest strength is his ability is to take men who act like boys, and make them men. Unfortunately, he seems to have tried to do the same with boys who act like boys. The ability to nurse them, inspire them, challenge them in that earlier stage of development seems to have been utterly lost on him.

I seriously wonder if Heyne, Gaertner, and even somebody like Walsh would have been better managed by Watters. To put it another way, I highly, highly doubt that we would have seen players like Newnes picked this year, at all, under Lyon.

 

[Defacto]

I remember that Bourkey45 (or some number) LOVED him - thought he was the bees-knees. He was ecstatic when we got him.

I don't think we can underestimate the value of the Development Academy. I think Gaertner is a good case in point - his dad was a regular poster here for a while, and it became patently obvious from his comments that Gaertner had just got to the point where he hated playing footy. That just screams of poor environment, I reckon - just in terms of developing youth and making them feel like there's a point. You take away a kid's hope, that they'll live the dream of AFL, and seriously, why would they bust their guts out there in Sandy?

Ross was - and is - a fantastic coach. His biggest strength is his ability is to take men who act like boys, and make them men. Unfortunately, he seems to have tried to do the same with boys who act like boys. The ability to nurse them, inspire them, challenge them in that earlier stage of development seems to have been utterly lost on him.

I seriously wonder if Heyne, Gaertner, and even somebody like Walsh would have been better managed by Watters. To put it another way, I highly, highly doubt that we would have seen players like Newnes picked this year, at all, under Lyon.

i think youre right. now that some water has passed under the bridge it would be interesting to get more info from gaetner senior on what was wrong.

treatment of luke miles over cahil is also something i will never understand.

 

[Squizz]

I remember that Bourkey45 (or some number) LOVED him - thought he was the bees-knees. He was ecstatic when we got him.

I don't think we can underestimate the value of the Development Academy. I think Gaertner is a good case in point - his dad was a regular poster here for a while, and it became patently obvious from his comments that Gaertner had just got to the point where he hated playing footy. That just screams of poor environment, I reckon - just in terms of developing youth and making them feel like there's a point. You take away a kid's hope, that they'll live the dream of AFL, and seriously, why would they bust their guts out there in Sandy?

Ross was - and is - a fantastic coach. His biggest strength is his ability is to take men who act like boys, and make them men. Unfortunately, he seems to have tried to do the same with boys who act like boys. The ability to nurse them, inspire them, challenge them in that earlier stage of development seems to have been utterly lost on him.

I seriously wonder if Heyne, Gaertner, and even somebody like Walsh would have been better managed by Watters. To put it another way, I highly, highly doubt that we would have seen players like Newnes picked this year, at all, under Lyon.

Bourky23 (or journo Jake Bourke at the Border Mail).

Pretty sure he knew Heyney quite well.

Pelchen was the first sign the club knew we had some serious issues with the list.

And Watters as gone to great pains to talk about development (clearly it was known that this wasn't a priority previously).

"Watters said one of the most pleasing aspects of his first season in charge was how many of the club's previously unproven players showed they deserved their place on the list."

"“The continuing development of our playing and coaching squad is paramount. Almost 60% of our List has played less than 50 games, they need to be challenged to perform and progress as elite athletes and footballers"

"We've been developing some exciting young players this year, so I'm looking forward to being part of the future with them."

"Watters said the Saints were in the process of beefing up their development program in a bid to close the gap to the top-four sides."

Saints website "This season, under the direction of coach Scott Watters, the club has focused on developing players and providing opportunities"

Laidley "The reality is we want to find some more players to put through there, some young players and develop them."

 

[Sunshine Saint]

Bourky23 (or journo Jake Bourke at the Border Mail).

Pretty sure he knew Heyney quite well.

Pelchen was the first sign the club knew we had some serious issues with the list.

And Watters as gone to great pains to talk about development (clearly it was known that this wasn't a priority previously).

"Watters said one of the most pleasing aspects of his first season in charge was how many of the club's previously unproven players showed they deserved their place on the list."

"“The continuing development of our playing and coaching squad is paramount. Almost 60% of our List has played less than 50 games, they need to be challenged to perform and progress as elite athletes and footballers"

"We've been developing some exciting young players this year, so I'm looking forward to being part of the future with them."

"Watters said the Saints were in the process of beefing up their development program in a bid to close the gap to the top-four sides."

Saints website "This season, under the direction of coach Scott Watters, the club has focused on developing players and providing opportunities"

Laidley "The reality is we want to find some more players to put through there, some young players and develop them."

No doubt the continuing overall professional development of St Kilda, including recruitment and genuine player growth, are part of the ongoing excitement and buzz to the club.

In past years, I have shook my head at a variety of decisions and the ad hoc decision making at the club. The reacting to events, rather than following a club plan, tended to characterise how we operated and was particularly frustrating. But it is obvious that now we have an overall plan and the will to implement it and to follow it through.

 

[sammm]

i think youre right. now that some water has passed under the bridge it would be interesting to get more info from gaetner senior on what was wrong.

treatment of luke miles over cahil is also something i will never understand.

I could never understand why Luke miles had 2 games then got dropped and never to be seen again. From my memory people on here were saying reasonable things about him as a defensive player.

 

[Defacto]

I could never understand why Luke miles had 2 games then got dropped and never to be seen again. From my memory people on here were saying reasonable things about him as a defensive player.

he told some supporters directly that ross lyon told him that he was being delisted because they though cahill had more potential and had his spot.

remind me again how that one went. less than 3 months after that conversation, cahills papers were stamped.

ross is no doubt a genius when it comes to tactics but his player management skills were akin to a kid with aspergers.

 

[stkildathunda]

Luke Miles had chronic knee injuries from memory and if memory serves me correct did his knee very early in season following year he was delisted.

 

[Defacto]

Luke Miles had chronic knee injuries from memory and if memory serves me correct did his knee very early in season following year he was delisted.

yes he did his knee at swan districts. but to throw out a bloke with an explanation that he is being delisted because another player has more upside when the other play had shown less and had known attitude problems is poor. read the bubble, even misson is on record, in his own words, stating that ross did not like miles because he came from a private school background.

then you go over ross's usual trick of making a bloke emergency more than 10 times before handing him his debut and you wonder what planet he is on.

you just cant spin that kind of decision making and my suspicion is we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg and there was more of it going on behind closed doors.

 

[stkildathunda]

yes he did his knee at swan districts. but to throw out a bloke with an explanation that he is being delisted because another player has more upside when the other play had shown less and had known attitude problems is poor. read the bubble, even misson is on record, in his own words, stating that ross did not like miles because he came from a private school background.

then you go over ross's usual trick of making a bloke emergency more than 10 times before handing him his debut and you wonder what planet he is on.

you just cant spin that kind of decision making and my suspicion is we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg and there was more of it going on behind closed doors.

I really should read that book one day!!

 

[SaintsSeptember]

he told some supporters directly that ross lyon told him that he was being delisted because they though cahill had more potential and had his spot.

remind me again how that one went. less than 3 months after that conversation, cahills papers were stamped.

ross is no doubt a genius when it comes to tactics but his player management skills were akin to a kid with aspergers.

I wouldn't think that Cahill would have been competing for his "direct" spot though. Miles was a back flanker while Cahil was a shortarse tall forward.
To me Lyon should have made the tough call and delisted Raph (2 years early) or Baker ( a year early ).
Thats the real cost of drafting Dean Polo or Ryan Gamble. The players you delist to get them.
Yeah Miles may have got injured at StKilda but would we be worse off. ( bear in mind he'd have been 26 this season though ).

 

[Axcellence]

A lot of couldabeen legends here... The reality is that saints just drafted poorly, particularly under Peake.

 

[kosifantutti]

Obviously the Saints have a problem to bridge the gap between our aging champions and the next generation.
Is it because of poor drafting, or is it inevitable due to long periods at the top of the list.

Each year the AFL have an official Phantom Draft by Matt Burgen or whoever. I thought I would score StKilda's drafting against it.
0 = wasted pick. 5 = best outcome in hindsite.

Keep in mind that the phantom draft is done after any good or bad decision to trade draft picks or players.
I could try to award points for sucessfully retaining a player(passing ) rather than recruiting a late pic but its too hard.

I stopped at 2009 since IMO its still too early to judge a lot of the newer kids.

2006:
AFL Phantom:
R1 Mitch Thorpe not Available so dodged a bullet, 2nd choice J Riewoldt (5)
R2 Will Schoefield (4)
R4 Hayden Kiel (0)
R5 Clarke Keating(0)
Also Stefan Martin (0) - Brett Collins (0)

Saints:
R1 Armitage (4)
R2 Howard (0)
R4 Allen (3-4 ) but unlucky
R5 M Fergason (1)
AFL= 9 Saints 9

2007:
AFL Phantom
McEvoy (5)
Kris Kangars (0)
Haelen Kay(0)

Saints
McEvoy (5)
Steven (5)
Eljay Connors (0)
AFL =5 StKilda =10

2008:
AFL: Sam Blease (3-4)
Gaertner (0)
DeBoer Post Gillies and Shiel long gone: mentioned Tayor Hunt(5) ( Had Heyne going at p24 though).

Saints: Lynch (0)
Stanley (5)
Heyne (0)

AFL = 8 Saints =5

2009:
AFL Sam Reid(5)
Winmar (0)
Marcus Davies (0) ( even though not available ).
Josh Donaldson (0)


Saints: Winmar (0)
Jesse Smith (0)
Pattison (1)
Will Johnson (0)

AFL 5 StK 1

Total.
AFL Phantoms : 27
St Kilda : 25

Not really much in it.
So it seems that if our drafting was bad, it wasn't blatently bad.
We could do a similar exercise dealing with our trades, and the outcome of what we traded.
I guess some of those earlier picks would have been good.

In hindsite the loss of Jarryd Allen is a massive one for us, though its still speculation as to what sort of player he would have turned into.

In the 08 phantom draft, Burgan heard that Freo were keen on Hill and reordered the top 20 to give us Lynch instead of Blease

 

[Squizz]

Luke Miles had chronic knee injuries from memory and if memory serves me correct did his knee very early in season following year he was delisted.

Whilst he had some stress fractures, I think the knee was isolated. Don't think the Saints would have promoted him to the senior list after 2 years as a rookie if his knees were shot at 23yo. After so many games as emergency, and then playing well when he finally got a shot, I was a bit surprised. Then Lyon goes out and gets Gamble and Polo!

 

[Defacto]

Whilst he had some stress fractures, I think the knee was isolated. Don't think the Saints would have promoted him to the senior list after 2 years as a rookie if his knees were shot at 23yo. After so many games as emergency, and then playing well when he finally got a shot, I was a bit surprised. Then Lyon goes out and gets Gamble and Polo!

what is stanger is ross lyon deflecting blame on the baker delisting to pelchen. i mean sure pelchen may have had a say but my bet is pelchen wouldnt have wanted ross to just announce that stuff straight after a loss, in the rooms.

ross is not doubt a talented coach when it comes to tatics but i think his personnel and management skills are terrible. hopefully for freos sake, they put talented people around him who can advise him on that side of the job.

 

[Squizz]

what is stanger is ross lyon deflecting blame on the baker delisting to pelchen. i mean sure pelchen may have had a say but my bet is pelchen wouldnt have wanted ross to just announce that stuff straight after a loss, in the rooms.

ross is not doubt a talented coach when it comes to tatics but i think his personnel and management skills are terrible. hopefully for freos sake, they put talented people around him who can advise him on that side of the job.

No stranger than saying Baker, McQualter, and Eddy had all retired - which clearly wasn't the case.

 

[sammm]

yes he did his knee at swan districts. but to throw out a bloke with an explanation that he is being delisted because another player has more upside when the other play had shown less and had known attitude problems is poor. read the bubble, even misson is on record, in his own words, stating that ross did not like miles because he came from a private school background.

then you go over ross's usual trick of making a bloke emergency more than 10 times before handing him his debut and you wonder what planet he is on.

you just cant spin that kind of decision making and my suspicion is we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg and there was more of it going on behind closed doors.

I am sure there is but very few people will talk.

thats what annoyed so many of us, he kept being emergency for many games, but couldn't get a game until it was already too late. like lyon had to give him a game, or like he had to upgrade a rookie as part of his contract, i don't know but it felt like that at times.

 

[hayes]

I didn't mind the look of Miles from the 1 or 2 games he played. Had blistering pace, would be perfect as a small defender. Surprised we didn't keep him seeing he won the grand final sprint and all.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Rookie Drafting and Recycling and stupid wasteful picks.

2005.
Guerra. Surely it wasnt just that ONE kick that we delisted him for. ( But it was the Buterss/Thomas admin ) In hindsight the Saints didn't play him to his strengths.

2006.
Birss trade. I thought it was OK but since the coach didn't like him he sat and clogged the list for 2 seasons. Poor bloke ended up with clinical depression. Possible picks included Goldsack, Ben Warren, or Westhoff.

Redraft Ferguson. : he'd had four seasons. But lets go round and round again. Possible picks, Jesse White, Wellingham.

Mathew Ferguson : Made Kosi look mobile and dextrous.

2007.
Rookied Miles for no reason, was never going to play him.
Rookied McQualter WHY FFS HE WAS ALREADY ON THE LIST could have had Fraser's spot.
Rookied Khan Haratuku but we werent going to give him time to develop.

Available , WIlkes, Cam Stokes, Mumford,

2008.
Alistair Smith. Did everything in the VFL that he should. If they didn't like his type of player why draft him. Its not like he could have done more.
Colm Begley/

 

[hayes]

Rookie Drafting and Recycling and stupid wasteful picks.

2005.
Guerra. Surely it wasnt just that ONE kick that we delisted him for. ( But it was the Buterss/Thomas admin ) In hindsight the Saints didn't play him to his strengths.

2006.
Birss trade. I thought it was OK but since the coach didn't like him he sat and clogged the list for 2 seasons. Poor bloke ended up with clinical depression. Possible picks included Goldsack, Ben Warren, or Westhoff.

Redraft Ferguson. : he'd had four seasons. But lets go round and round again. Possible picks, Jesse White, Wellingham.

Mathew Ferguson : Made Kosi look mobile and dextrous.

2007.
Rookied Miles for no reason, was never going to play him.
Rookied McQualter WHY FFS HE WAS ALREADY ON THE LIST could have had Fraser's spot.
Rookied Khan Haratuku but we werent going to give him time to develop.

Available , WIlkes, Cam Stokes, Mumford,

2008.
Alistair Smith. Did everything in the VFL that he should. If they didn't like his type of player why draft him. Its not like he could have done more.
Colm Begley/

What was the deal with Alistair Smith? I was surprised to see him delisted, thought we had a lot to work with there. Disposal was an issue IIRC but I don't remember it being diabolical.

 

[Axcellence]

What was the deal with Alistair Smith? I was surprised to see him delisted, thought we had a lot to work with there. Disposal was an issue IIRC but I don't remember it being diabolical.

From memory, it was diabolical. In all honesty, its become an issue that if a new player isnt straight away an elite kick - he goes to the bin. Siposs isnt consistent but has quality disposal - hence he's a steal.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

From memory, it was diabolical. In all honesty, its become an issue that if a new player isnt straight away an elite kick - he goes to the bin. Siposs isnt consistent but has quality disposal - hence he's a steal.

Given that we know how well they kick before the draft its pretty stupid to draft them.
I would have thought that Smith was a better kick than Jones, and able to play a similar role. ie Improvement.
I dont belive in chasing perfection, just improving.