Discussion Drafting Performance StKilda vs Matt Burgen etc.

[Defacto]

What was the deal with Alistair Smith? I was surprised to see him delisted, thought we had a lot to work with there. Disposal was an issue IIRC but I don't remember it being diabolical.

bloke is a spud. he has been shizen for perth. was never going to take the next step. as much as i didnt want it to be, the club was right to delist him.

maybe if he was drafted this year and had the development around him, it could have turned out better.

 

[sammm]

bloke is a spud. he has been shizen for perth. was never going to take the next step. as much as i didnt want it to be, the club was right to delist him.

maybe if he was drafted this year and had the development around him, it could have turned out better.

maybe Aker was right in calling him the dribbler???

 

[Defacto]

maybe Aker was right in calling him the dribbler???

i probably was a bit harsh on him but stand by my call that he hasnt been the greatest:
http://www.wafl.com.au/players/view/4474

 

[Squizz]

i probably was a bit harsh on him but stand by my call that he hasnt been the greatest:
http://www.wafl.com.au/players/view/4474

I'm glad you (sorta) corrected yourself, as I'd looked those stats up earlier today. 23 possessions a game seems pretty serviceable. Wasn't the worst tagger going around (as the dribbler Akermanis discovered) but with Geary, Dempster and Jones - along with the club looking to be a bit more attacking this year - we probably didn't need Alias.

 

[Defacto]

I'm glad you (sorta) corrected yourself, as I'd looked those stats up earlier today. 23 possessions a game seems pretty serviceable. Wasn't the worst tagger going around (as the dribbler Akermanis discovered) but with Geary, Dempster and Jones - along with the club looking to be a bit more attacking this year - we probably didn't need Alias.

stats can lie. games i saw he was worth much. would be interesting to see how many were collected during junk time. perth got flogged alot this year!!

 

[Saint Christopher]

Whichever way you want to slice and dice it, we did poorly in 2008 and 2009.

Although to be fair, Lynch now effectively equals Newnes - big tick for current day recruiting versus previous recruiting.

Not sure I can work out your score for Allen in 2006.

And if Gaertner had've got a main list spot, he'd probably be our 200cm lightning quick full back today!

Hi Saints forum, my first post so to start- thanks for all updates (especially for Sandy info-I am Sydney based so never get to see those games) also all info, gossip, opinion – really enjoyed reading the posts and decided to jump on board.

ST K drafting…
This is in response to the good other posts in various threads –

nothing can be called definitive with drafting or right or wrong except in hindsight – and I am sure all level –headed club supporters, would concede that all clubs make drafting blunders (Tambling/Franklin), but some of these made by our recruiting staff are hard to swallow/believe…

Not putting this up as an indictment, in fairness I should also post a team full of correct drafting decisions –i.e majority of team we have now, Sam Fisher for example… but just to add to the discussion regarding our current deficiencies – there’s not much we can do now but I have only got to that stage of zen after the wall I was banging my head against collapsed…one question –how did this happen?

Goes back to 1999.

The person chosen by other teams came from either the rookie draft OR the player DIRECTLY after the player we picked…

Even if they got one of these picks right we’d still be in the top 8 now I suspect.

First name is the player we took, second name the player taken after that pick.


B (Clint Jones) Matthew Suckling (Caydn Beetham) Luke McPharlin (Xavier Clark) James Kelly or James Bartel

HB (Jaryd Allen) Tyson Goldsack (Mark McGough) Nick Maxwell (Jesse Smith –whilst chronically injured) Michael Barlow

C (Criag Callaghan) Brad Sewell (IF we did not give pick 16 for Lovett) Nat Fyfe (Dylan Pfizner) Keiran Jack

HF (Mcevoy) Dangerfield or Rioli (Nick Winmar) Sam Reid (Murray Pitts) Ryan O’Keefe.

F (Jamie Cripps) Jack Darling (Brad Howard) Kurt Tippett (Eljay Connors) Taylor Walker

Ruck (Khan Haretaku) Shane Mumford (Luke Ball) Judd (Tom Lynch) Luke Shuey

Interchange: (Sam Crocker) Alex Fasolo (Mark Gale) Dean Cox (Micheal Rix) Matthew Stokes (Brad Howard – redrafted) Luke Bruest

Emergency: (Ryan Gamble) Johnathon Giles (Webster) Jackson Paine

Yes of course we’d all concede that McEvoy was a need we had to fill and a fair pick, and potentially a 200 gamer and Clint Jones has been serviceable. Then there are cases like Darling where a lot of clubs overlooked him ‘cos of rumours and yes we could argue that other clubs also overlooked the others. Points taken and conceded. But apart from Judd and the emergencies, all these other players are now playing finals this year so they must have shown something…and with apologies to X, who was one of my favourite players, just cruelled by injury, and Ball (star) the rest were, sort of, well, not great picks. Sadly, I had so much choice I could name a team in position…

(Apologies if I got anything wrong in regard to draft order and putting my hand up now to say clearly- I understand there are a lot of caveats to drafting…Beetham, who knew?)

 

[Sunshine Saint]

Hi Saints forum, my first post so to start- thanks for all updates (especially for Sandy info-I am Sydney based so never get to see those games) also all info, gossip, opinion – really enjoyed reading the posts and decided to jump on board.

ST K drafting…
This is in response to the good other posts in various threads –

nothing can be called definitive with drafting or right or wrong except in hindsight – and I am sure all level –headed club supporters, would concede that all clubs make drafting blunders (Tambling/Franklin), but some of these made by our recruiting staff are hard to swallow/believe…

Not putting this up as an indictment, in fairness I should also post a team full of correct drafting decisions –i.e majority of team we have now, Sam Fisher for example… but just to add to the discussion regarding our current deficiencies – there’s not much we can do now but I have only got to that stage of zen after the wall I was banging my head against collapsed…one question –how did this happen?

Goes back to 1999.

The person chosen by other teams came from either the rookie draft OR the player DIRECTLY after the player we picked…

Even if they got one of these picks right we’d still be in the top 8 now I suspect.

First name is the player we took, second name the player taken after that pick.


B (Clint Jones) Matthew Suckling (Caydn Beetham) Luke McPharlin (Xavier Clark) James Kelly or James Bartel

HB (Jaryd Allen) Tyson Goldsack (Mark McGough) Nick Maxwell (Jesse Smith –whilst chronically injured) Michael Barlow

C (Criag Callaghan) Brad Sewell (IF we did not give pick 16 for Lovett) Nat Fyfe (Dylan Pfizner) Keiran Jack

HF (Mcevoy) Dangerfield or Rioli (Nick Winmar) Sam Reid (Murray Pitts) Ryan O’Keefe.

F (Jamie Cripps) Jack Darling (Brad Howard) Kurt Tippett (Eljay Connors) Taylor Walker

Ruck (Khan Haretaku) Shane Mumford (Luke Ball) Judd (Tom Lynch) Luke Shuey

Interchange: (Sam Crocker) Alex Fasolo (Mark Gale) Dean Cox (Micheal Rix) Matthew Stokes (Brad Howard – redrafted) Luke Bruest

Emergency: (Ryan Gamble) Johnathon Giles (Webster) Jackson Paine

Yes of course we’d all concede that McEvoy was a need we had to fill and a fair pick, and potentially a 200 gamer and Clint Jones has been serviceable. Then there are cases like Darling where a lot of clubs overlooked him ‘cos of rumours and yes we could argue that other clubs also overlooked the others. Points taken and conceded. But apart from Judd and the emergencies, all these other players are now playing finals this year so they must have shown something…and with apologies to X, who was one of my favourite players, just cruelled by injury, and Ball (star) the rest were, sort of, well, not great picks. Sadly, I had so much choice I could name a team in position…

(Apologies if I got anything wrong in regard to draft order and putting my hand up now to say clearly- I understand there are a lot of caveats to drafting…Beetham, who knew?)

Firstly welcome and incredibly well done with your first post (or even if this was your 25,000 post).

This is not just a lovely exercise of what could have been, but one of oh oh oh so close. I think it is clear that irrespective of who we want to chose, we now select the next draft pick, in the next draft. Appreciate that everything is great with hindsight, but this shows the narrow margin between an incredible list and a 9th finish.

Recruiting is one area that appears is ripe for a variety of club based, research projects, on talent identification. We already know from other sports ie gymnastics, sprinting and middle distance running, that there are a variety of means of identifying, the basic physiological aspects, of potential athletes. This is the area, that St Kilda needs to be at the forefront, as teams like Collingwood with far larger budgets, will try and make this their key advantage over all other teams.

 

[Saint Christopher]

Firstly welcome and incredibly well done with your first post (or even if this was your 25,000 post).

This is not just a lovely exercise of what could have been, but one of oh oh oh so close. I think it is clear that irrespective of who we want to chose, we now select the next draft pick, in the next draft. Appreciate that everything is great with hindsight, but this shows the narrow margin between an incredible list and a 9th finish.

Recruiting is one area that appears is ripe for a variety of club based, research projects, on talent identification. We already know from other sports ie gymnastics, sprinting and middle distance running, that there are a variety of means of identifying, the basic physiological aspects, of potential athletes. This is the area, that St Kilda needs to be at the forefront, as teams like Collingwood with far larger budgets, will try and make this their key advantage over all other teams.

Hi Sunshine Saint, thanks - certainly my first post, - could not agree with you more about assessing all aspects of a player, I am a little bit of the moneyball school but also have some reservations, back on more fully later, just wanted to say thanks - off to the online B&F, hoping for BJ to confirm something for us -no inside knowledge! Just fingers crossed!

 

[sammm]

Hi Saints forum, my first post so to start- thanks for all updates (especially for Sandy info-I am Sydney based so never get to see those games) also all info, gossip, opinion – really enjoyed reading the posts and decided to jump on board.

ST K drafting…
This is in response to the good other posts in various threads –

nothing can be called definitive with drafting or right or wrong except in hindsight – and I am sure all level –headed club supporters, would concede that all clubs make drafting blunders (Tambling/Franklin), but some of these made by our recruiting staff are hard to swallow/believe…

Not putting this up as an indictment, in fairness I should also post a team full of correct drafting decisions –i.e majority of team we have now, Sam Fisher for example… but just to add to the discussion regarding our current deficiencies – there’s not much we can do now but I have only got to that stage of zen after the wall I was banging my head against collapsed…one question –how did this happen?

Goes back to 1999.

The person chosen by other teams came from either the rookie draft OR the player DIRECTLY after the player we picked…

Even if they got one of these picks right we’d still be in the top 8 now I suspect.

First name is the player we took, second name the player taken after that pick.


B (Clint Jones) Matthew Suckling (Caydn Beetham) Luke McPharlin (Xavier Clark) James Kelly or James Bartel

HB (Jaryd Allen) Tyson Goldsack (Mark McGough) Nick Maxwell (Jesse Smith –whilst chronically injured) Michael Barlow

C (Criag Callaghan) Brad Sewell (IF we did not give pick 16 for Lovett) Nat Fyfe (Dylan Pfizner) Keiran Jack

HF (Mcevoy) Dangerfield or Rioli (Nick Winmar) Sam Reid (Murray Pitts) Ryan O’Keefe.

F (Jamie Cripps) Jack Darling (Brad Howard) Kurt Tippett (Eljay Connors) Taylor Walker

Ruck (Khan Haretaku) Shane Mumford (Luke Ball) Judd (Tom Lynch) Luke Shuey

Interchange: (Sam Crocker) Alex Fasolo (Mark Gale) Dean Cox (Micheal Rix) Matthew Stokes (Brad Howard – redrafted) Luke Bruest

Emergency: (Ryan Gamble) Johnathon Giles (Webster) Jackson Paine

Yes of course we’d all concede that McEvoy was a need we had to fill and a fair pick, and potentially a 200 gamer and Clint Jones has been serviceable. Then there are cases like Darling where a lot of clubs overlooked him ‘cos of rumours and yes we could argue that other clubs also overlooked the others. Points taken and conceded. But apart from Judd and the emergencies, all these other players are now playing finals this year so they must have shown something…and with apologies to X, who was one of my favourite players, just cruelled by injury, and Ball (star) the rest were, sort of, well, not great picks. Sadly, I had so much choice I could name a team in position…

(Apologies if I got anything wrong in regard to draft order and putting my hand up now to say clearly- I understand there are a lot of caveats to drafting…Beetham, who knew?)

i think you just made us feel sick our stomach of some of those. brad howard, nick winmar, haryd allen in particular. oh well

 

[sammm]

I remember Cadybn being on the footy show with about 4 other yojng guns from other clubs, he was theone that did not look professional

 

[hayes]

I remember Cadybn being on the footy show with about 4 other yojng guns from other clubs, he was theone that did not look professional

.......and?

 

[Simple Jack]

i think you just made us feel sick our stomach of some of those. brad howard, nick winmar, haryd allen in particular. oh well

Or even worse A guy who never played a game and caused all sorts of trouble vs A young gun who will be top 5 in the comp in a few years. That Dean Cox guy went ok off the rookie list too.

Could have used Bartel in '09.

De-press-ing

 

[sammm]

Or even worse A guy who never played a game and caused all sorts of trouble vs A young gun who will be top 5 in the comp in a few years. That Dean Cox guy went ok off the rookie list too.

Could have used Bartel in '09.

De-press-ing

Re Dean Cox are a lot of hard work by recruiters to unearth them, also i think not many rookies have been taken interstate. maybe more so this year due to increased $$$

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Re Dean Cox are a lot of hard work by recruiters to unearth them, also i think not many rookies have been taken interstate. maybe more so this year due to increased $$$

How much did it cost us to take one from Ireland.

 

[sammm]

How much did it cost us to take one from Ireland.

good questions, don't know, i had not thought of the ireland experiment.

 

[Saint Christopher]

Or even worse A guy who never played a game and caused all sorts of trouble vs A young gun who will be top 5 in the comp in a few years. That Dean Cox guy went ok off the rookie list too.

Could have used Bartel in '09.

De-press-ing

Clinical. Was actually spoilt for choice with key forwards we could have had, can't say I was in the mood last night to hear Scotty congratulate the recruiting staff at the B&F! Hopefully the recruiting team does as well this year as last year.

 

[Squizz]

Clinical. Was actually spoilt for choice with key forwards we could have had, can't say I was in the mood last night to hear Scotty congratulate the recruiting staff at the B&F! Hopefully the recruiting team does as well this year as last year.

Elshaug was appointed as recruiting manager after the 2010 draft, and I'd give last year a big tick with Saad, Milera, Ross, Markworth, Newnes and Dunell with no pick under 20.

To give you a hint of how old Bevo is, he started working with the Saints in the 1960s and as a recruiter since 1994!

But he's made a few blues for sure. In part I think it's because he dislikes (or doesn't) fly. Makes it bloody hard to see players regularly enough (even if people can take videos and send them to him).

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Elshaug was appointed as recruiting manager after the 2010 draft, and I'd give last year a big tick with Saad, Milera, Ross, Markworth, Newnes and Dunell with no pick under 20.

To give you a hint of how old Bevo is, he started working with the Saints in the 1960s and as a recruiter since 1994!

But he's made a few blues for sure. In part I think it's because he dislikes (or doesn't) fly. Makes it bloody hard to see players regularly enough (even if people can take videos and send them to him).

How the &^%# did they find out about Howard I'd like to know. Its a secret I'd have liked to stay hidden.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

bloke is a spud. he has been shizen for perth. was never going to take the next step. as much as i didnt want it to be, the club was right to delist him.

maybe if he was drafted this year and had the development around him, it could have turned out better.

Except on the days he's named among the best.
To be honest though, I dont know how often that occurs.
http://www.perthdemons.com.au/news/bulldogs-finish-over-demons/

 

[Squizz]

How the &^%# did they find out about Howard I'd like to know. Its a secret I'd have liked to stay hidden.

Former St Kilda player Gary Odgers was his coach.

His father used to be in the Saints zone (Ballarat) and played an U/19 game.

“We were very keen on him last year so we’ve tracked his progress pretty closely,” said St Kilda recruiting manager John Beveridge. “We knew the Bulldogs were keen and if there’s a player you want you don’t let him go. We wanted to add some athleticism to our list and he’s certainly an athlete. His testing was quite remarkable.”
(2.92sec 20m sprint, 15.01 beep test, standing vertical jump of 74cm, 3km time-trial of 10min53sec)

"Our next pick was at number 59 and our feeling was that Brad wouldn't have still been available by the time that pick came around."

 

[saintsrfreak]

Ledger
Siposs
Newnes
Cripps
Milera
Saad
Ross
Dunell
Markworth

I'd say we've done pretty well in the last couple of years

 

[Sunshine Saint]

Elshaug was appointed as recruiting manager after the 2010 draft, and I'd give last year a big tick with Saad, Milera, Ross, Markworth, Newnes and Dunell with no pick under 20.

To give you a hint of how old Bevo is, he started working with the Saints in the 1960s and as a recruiter since 1994!

But he's made a few blues for sure. In part I think it's because he dislikes (or doesn't) fly. Makes it bloody hard to see players regularly enough (even if people can take videos and send them to him).

Squiz I nearly dropped the laptop laughing with your comment that our recruiting officer didn't like to fly. Now that is a neat trick on how well he did recruit, with that sort of handicap.

I am very thankful that Elshaug and crew have joined our recruiting team and that we are now airborne.

 

[Squizz]

Squiz I nearly dropped the laptop laughing with your comment that our recruiting officer didn't like to fly. Now that is a neat trick on how well he did recruit, with that sort of handicap.

I am very thankful that Elshaug and crew have joined our recruiting team and that we are now airborne.

The you'll love this:

(on Michael Barlow) United's then footy manager called his old mate John Beveridge, St Kilda's veteran recruiter, and told him he should come for a drive.

"How good?" Beveridge asked. "You're not going to like what you see," Blizzard told him, "but what's inside is unbelievable."

Beveridge stood behind the goals with his notepad and pen, a plea from Blizzard — "look past the wounded-duck run, don't take what you see as gospel" — ringing in his ears. At quarter-time, Beveridge said: "He's taller than I thought, he looks slow ..." By game's end, he'd counted 43 possessions and nine tackles.

"He was running down people who were faster than him," Beveridge told Blizzard. "His mind's either quicker than his body, or he just knows what to do." The pace question is interesting. Barlow did the 2008 pre-season at St Kilda, and was beaten only by Robert Eddy in three-kilometre time trials. Endurance is his pet subject, yet at the state screening trials that year, the "wounded duck" ranked in the top 5 per cent over 20 metres.

The Saints decided he wasn't what they were after, taking Eljay Connors from Echuca instead.

He trained with Essendon for a week before the rookie draft, and when the Bombers chose Kyle Hardingham, who'd been targeted by Fremantle, the Dockers picked Barlow.

In Shepparton, Blizzard's phone rang. "Your boy's just been picked up," Beveridge told him. "You know, I've got a funny feeling he's going to break all the rules, and he's going to be great."

 

[Sunshine Saint]

The you'll love this:

(on Michael Barlow) United's then footy manager called his old mate John Beveridge, St Kilda's veteran recruiter, and told him he should come for a drive.

"How good?" Beveridge asked. "You're not going to like what you see," Blizzard told him, "but what's inside is unbelievable."

Beveridge stood behind the goals with his notepad and pen, a plea from Blizzard — "look past the wounded-duck run, don't take what you see as gospel" — ringing in his ears. At quarter-time, Beveridge said: "He's taller than I thought, he looks slow ..." By game's end, he'd counted 43 possessions and nine tackles.

"He was running down people who were faster than him," Beveridge told Blizzard. "His mind's either quicker than his body, or he just knows what to do." The pace question is interesting. Barlow did the 2008 pre-season at St Kilda, and was beaten only by Robert Eddy in three-kilometre time trials. Endurance is his pet subject, yet at the state screening trials that year, the "wounded duck" ranked in the top 5 per cent over 20 metres.

The Saints decided he wasn't what they were after, taking Eljay Connors from Echuca instead.

He trained with Essendon for a week before the rookie draft, and when the Bombers chose Kyle Hardingham, who'd been targeted by Fremantle, the Dockers picked Barlow.

In Shepparton, Blizzard's phone rang. "Your boy's just been picked up," Beveridge told him. "You know, I've got a funny feeling he's going to break all the rules, and he's going to be great."

Squiz I don't often drink, but think stories like this, should have a graphic of a can of beer, or such, so that I will know to read it later, when I have had a drink and can laugh at it.

I would imagine though, with all the new recruiting staff Beveridge would be used for his incredible contacts and long term knowledge. It is a great thing that the baton has been passed to Elshaug and crew.

 

[Squizz]

I would imagine though, with all the new recruiting staff Beveridge would be used for his incredible contacts and long term knowledge. It is a great thing that the baton has been passed to Elshaug and crew.

Yep, spotters and contacts are crucial. You can't be at every game.