Draw Statistics

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Bruton77 said:
Just been flicking throughmy copy of "Every Game Ever Played 1897 - 1997" and came across the Fitzroy v University game from round 18 1909 which finished in a draw. Does anyone know where I can find more info on this match.

The result ment Fitzroy stayed 2 points and 1.5% ahead of University.
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The match was played on 4/09/1909.
Match reports are at these links:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/18532979?zoomLevel=1

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/356725?zoomLevel=1

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/11419869?zoomLevel=1

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/21508929?zoomLevel=1
 
RogersResults said:
The match was played on 4/09/1909.
Match reports are at these links:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/18532979?zoomLevel=1

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/356725?zoomLevel=1

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/11419869?zoomLevel=1

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/21508929?zoomLevel=1
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I've only had a very brief look at this, but The Age report mentions Fergie for University, whereas they never had a player with that name. Fitzroy did several years later.

The Argus report names Smith for Fitzroy (Smith played that year but isn't named in this team) and also has Briggs with 3 goals (not 2).

The Australasian also names Smith for Fitzroy!

Here's what the records have for this game:-

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1909/061719090904.html

Edit: I'll copy this into Footy History / List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
where it would be better suited.
 
Last edited:

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35Daicos said:
I've only had a very brief look at this, but The Age report mentions Fergie for University, whereas they never had a player with that name. Fitzroy did several years later.

The Argus report names Smith for Fitzroy (Smith played that year but isn't named in this team) and also has Briggs with 3 goals (not 2).

The Australasian also names Smith for Fitzroy!

Here's what the records have for this game:-

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1909/061719090904.html

Edit: I'll copy this into Footy History / List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
where it would be better suited.
Click to expand...

Newspapers are not classed as 'official records'. (Do a search for 'newspapers as historical sources' for how historians regard them.)

Before 1912 there was no detailed keeping of the VFL's records (that began with George Cathie as the editor of the 'Football Record'). The records we have before 1912 have largely been put together from newspaper reports and where there have been discrepancies without any other supporting evidence, the most common figure or fact has been adopted. New information is still coming to light especially since 'Trove' has been available.

With no numbers on players in 1909 it would be surprising if there were not a number of incorrect identifications and there must be at least some last minute replacements and substitutions that have not been recorded.
 
RogersResults said:
Newspapers are not classed as 'official records'. (Do a search for 'newspapers as historical sources' for how historians regard them.)

Before 1912 there was no detailed keeping of the VFL's records (that began with George Cathie as the editor of the 'Football Record'). The records we have before 1912 have largely been put together from newspaper reports and where there have been discrepancies without any other supporting evidence, the most common figure or fact has been adopted. New information is still coming to light especially since 'Trove' has been available.

With no numbers on players in 1909 it would be surprising if there were not a number of incorrect identifications and there must be at least some last minute replacements and substitutions that have not been recorded.
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All of this I'm well aware of, Michael. By "official records" I meant what the AFL have on their books, certainly not what the newspapers have. Some serious problems with (the accepted) Fitzroy lineups from 1907 were uncovered recently and the records were altered accordingly. It will be interesting to see if there's yet another mistake or two here.
 
35Daicos said:
All of this I'm well aware of, Michael. By "official records" I meant what the AFL have on their books, certainly not what the newspapers have. Some serious problems with (the accepted) Fitzroy lineups from 1907 were uncovered recently and the records were altered accordingly. It will be interesting to see if there's yet another mistake or two here.
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I beg your pardon - I didn't really look to see who was posting and assumed it was Bruton77 who appeared unfamiliar with what was available online etc. My error.

With Smith for Fitzroy being named in a match that he currently is not credited with, the problem would be without an account of him replacing somebody else, would be to know who to take a game away from.
There is also the possibility that the report in the weekly Australasian was compiled from the daily Argus - especially with R.W.E. Wilmot ('Old Boy') writing for both at the time. The Argus on the Friday before the match goes into some detail about who will be playing and who won't at other matches, but the only mention of the Fitzroy vs University game is whether University's Stan Martin would play or not.
 
RogersResults said:
I beg your pardon - I didn't really look to see who was posting and assumed it was Bruton77 who appeared unfamiliar with what was available online etc. My error.

With Smith for Fitzroy being named in a match that he currently is not credited with, the problem would be without an account of him replacing somebody else, would be to know who to take a game away from.
There is also the possibility that the report in the weekly Australasian was compiled from the daily Argus - especially with R.W.E. Wilmot ('Old Boy') writing for both at the time. The Argus on the Friday before the match goes into some detail about who will be playing and who won't at other matches, but the only mention of the Fitzroy vs University game is whether University's Stan Martin would play or not.
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No worries, and thanks for that.

It's unfortunate there wasn't a game the next week for Fitzroy (or University), it would have made it easier if ins and outs for the next game were mentioned. I've been out for the last couple of hours and haven't got back to digging into this, it wouldn't surprise if the mention of Fergie (University) was just a mistake, as for the two mentions of Smith, what you've suggested could well explain it.

As I posted up the page a bit, I'll stick anything I can find in the thread on Footy History where it's probably better suited:-

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/list-thread-inaccuracy-in-official-records.1089761/page-6
 
Largest known comebacks to produce a draw. The side who made the comeback is mentioned first in the Teams column.



Season | Round | Deficit | Time | Teams | Scores prior to comeback | Venue
\1964|16|44|2nd Q (1 min)|Coll vs. Carl|3-47|Princes Park
\2009|16|43|3rd Q (9 min)|N. Melb vs. Rich|31-74|MCG
\1979|4|40|3rd Q (21 min)|Foots vs. Ess|66-106|Western Oval
\1951|9|38|3rd Q|Fitz vs. S. Melb|30-68|Brunswick St
\1985|11|38|1st Q (15 min)|N. Melb vs. Haw|0-38|MCG
\2006|21|38|3rd Q (11 min)|Geel vs. Melb|40-78|Kardinia Park
\1929|5|35|1/4 time|Foots vs. Melb|0-35|Western Oval
\1960|1|35|1/4 time|Carl vs. Rich|11-46|Princes Park
\1977|7|35|3rd Q (17 min)|St.K vs. S. Melb|38-73|Moorabbin
\1995|12|35|4th Q|Coll vs. Foots|36-71|Waverley
\1968|2|34|3/4 time|S. Melb vs. Haw|76-110|Glenferrie
 
There have been two instances where the scores in a drawn match have matched the year in which it occurred, both involving West Coast.

In 1990 they drew 13.12 (90) apiece with Collingwood in the qualifying final.
In 1992 they drew 13.14 (92) with Brisbane Bears 14.8 (92) in round 5.
 
worbod said:
There have been two instances where the scores in a drawn match have matched the year in which it occurred, both involving West Coast.

In 1990 they drew 13.12 (90) apiece with Collingwood in the qualifying final.
In 1992 they drew 13.14 (92) with Brisbane Bears 14.8 (92) in round 5.
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It’s notable that these were West Coast’s first two draws in the league, and its only ones until 2000, when this record became impossible to equal – there were no scores under 22 points between 1992 and 2008, and the lowest-scoring draw since 1903 has been 35 points (in 1904 and 1991).
 
I looked up AFL Tables to see if there were any one game players whose only senior game resulted in a draw, and was disappointed to find that there were none. I thought there would be at least one such player over the years.
 
emuboy said:
I looked up AFL Tables to see if there were any one game players whose only senior game resulted in a draw, and was disappointed to find that there were none. I thought there would be at least one such player over the years.
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I think you missed this group!:-

5409. Ray Davies 1 1 50.00 FI
5410. Ted Wellington 1 1 50.00 NM
5411. George Kanngieser 1 1 50.00 CW
5412. Eric Crompton 1 1 50.00 WB
5413. Colin Dufty 1 1 50.00 CW
5414. Arthur Harrison 1 1 50.00 CA
5415. Tom Hanson 1 1 50.00 CA
5416. Sid ONeill 1 1 50.00 FI
5417. Ron Larking 1 1 50.00 UN
5418. Ted Flynn 1 1 50.00 ES
5419. Daniel Archer 1 1 50.00 SK
5420. Byron Sumner 1 1 50.00 SY
5421. Garry Cameron 1 1 50.00 NM

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/biglists/bg11.txt
 
35Daicos said:
I think you missed this group!:-

5409. Ray Davies 1 1 50.00 FI
5410. Ted Wellington 1 1 50.00 NM
5411. George Kanngieser 1 1 50.00 CW
5412. Eric Crompton 1 1 50.00 WB
5413. Colin Dufty 1 1 50.00 CW
5414. Arthur Harrison 1 1 50.00 CA
5415. Tom Hanson 1 1 50.00 CA
5416. Sid ONeill 1 1 50.00 FI
5417. Ron Larking 1 1 50.00 UN
5418. Ted Flynn 1 1 50.00 ES
5419. Daniel Archer 1 1 50.00 SK
5420. Byron Sumner 1 1 50.00 SY
5421. Garry Cameron 1 1 50.00 NM

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/biglists/bg11.txt
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Thanks 35 Daicos - I must have somehow misread the list.
 

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It's probably been mentioned on other threads, but Gary O'Donnell coached only one senior game for Essendon when filling in for an injured Kevin Sheedy in Round 15 2006. The Bombers drew with Carlton, and this leaves O'Donnell as the only senior coach to have only coached a draw.
 
At the commencement of 2016, these are the current longest draw droughts in the major competitions:

AFL - Adelaide Crows last drew in 1994
WAFL - East Fremantle last drew in 1989 (this was East Fremantle's first draw since 1989, and in a 1st semi final against West Perth. Had this been two years later, there would have been extra time)
SANFL - Port Adelaide Magpies and North Adelaide last played in drawn games in 2007.
VFL/VFA - The Coburg Lions have not shared premiership points with another team since way back in 1983.
 
emuboy said:
It's probably been mentioned on other threads, but Gary O'Donnell coached only one senior game for Essendon when filling in for an injured Kevin Sheedy in Round 15 2006. The Bombers drew with Carlton, and this leaves O'Donnell as the only senior coach to have only coached a draw.
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The AFL History dept credit Sheedy with coaching that match.
I believe O'Donnell should be credited as coach and have held that view for some time.

The match was played on Saturday 22 July 2006. The next day an article about the match written by Kevin Sheedy was published in the Sunday Herald Sun. The following quotes appeared in the article: "Four days after a shoulder operation I was sitting there with my assistant coach Gary O'Donnell in charge of the match while I watched on…" and "We had a draw with a side playing good footy, and it was a great experience for an assistant coach to actually coach an AFL game."
 
For those who like matching numbers, there have been eight symmetrical draws in AFL/VFL history:

Round 5 1921 - Sth Melb 10.10-70 v. Carlton 10.10-70
Round 13 1926 - Hawthorn 10.10-70 v. Nth Melb 10.10-70
Round 14 1959 - Melbourne 11.11-77 v. Fitzroy 11.11-77
Round 1 1960 - Carlton 14.14-98 v. Richmond 14.14-98
Round 8 1973 - Nth Melb 8.8-56 v. Footscray 8.8-56
Round 7 1977 - St Kilda 14.14-98 v. Sth Melb 14.14-98
Round 5 2002 - St Kilda 8.8-56 v. Sydney 8.8-56
Round 20 2003 - Geelong 9.9-63 v. West Coast 9.9-63
 
Of the 154 drawn matches to date, only two games have seen one of the teams kick three goals more than their opponent, and both were many years ago. The first instance was in Round 11 1935, when Footscray 12.7-79 drew with Carlton 9.25-79. The second, and more famous example was in the 1948 Grand Final, when Essendon kicked an atrocious 7.27-69 to Melbourne's 10.9-69.
 
With no draws occurring this year, the first time since 2004, this is a list of the last time each of the sides played a draw:

GWS - None
Geelong - Round 21 2015 (First drawn game against St Kilda)
St Kilda - Round 21 2015 (First drawn game against Geelong)
Gold Coast - Round 18 2015 (First & only drawn game to date)
West Coast - Round 18 2015
Carlton - Round 23 2014
Essendon - Round 23 2014
Sydney - Round 8 2013
Fremantle - Round 8 2013 (First & only drawn game to date)
Richmond - Round 23 2012
Port Adelaide - Round 23 2012
Melbourne - Round 1 2011
Collingwood - Grand Final 2010
Hawthorn - Round 17 2010
Brisbane - Round 19 2009
North Melbourne - Round 17 2009
Western Bulldogs - Round 5 2008
Adelaide - Round 14 1994 (First & only drawn game to date)
 
Good bump
With scores tied in the dying mins of the Hawks -Pies game , I thought that we would finally get a draw in 2016 (in the second last game of the season ), but alas it wasn't to be
Adelaide's draw drought amazes me
Wonder when it will end
 
emuboy said:
With no draws occurring this year, the first time since 2004, this is a list of the last time each of the sides played a draw:

GWS - None
Geelong - Round 21 2015 (First drawn game against St Kilda)
St Kilda - Round 21 2015 (First drawn game against Geelong)
Gold Coast - Round 18 2015 (First & only drawn game to date)
West Coast - Round 18 2015
Carlton - Round 23 2014
Essendon - Round 23 2014
Sydney - Round 8 2013
Fremantle - Round 8 2013 (First & only drawn game to date)
Richmond - Round 23 2012
Port Adelaide - Round 23 2012
Melbourne - Round 1 2011
Collingwood - Grand Final 2010
Hawthorn - Round 17 2010
Brisbane - Round 19 2009
North Melbourne - Round 17 2009
Western Bulldogs - Round 5 2008
Adelaide - Round 14 1994 (First & only drawn game to date)
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North Melbourne's last draw was round 16 2009 (vs Richmond) not round 17.
 

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