"Drawing A Long Bow On Fairness In Football" - THE AGE

[BIRDBRAIN]

Too many people love to throw out the ‘just kill off 1-2 teams’ line because “fairness” but I’m willing to bet none of them are willing to sacrifice their own clubs to do it. All 18 clubs have claims to remain in the competition.

I don't think the AFL will ever seek to 'kill off' a Victorian club ala Fitzroy ever again. It doesn't achieve anything except alienate a whole bunch of what were actual paying and engaged football supporters. Noone wants to support a merged club either.

 

[The Warlord]

When will people ever understand that the AFL isn't a sporting contest? They couldn't give a rat's what's fair and equitable. It's a business that only cares about how much money can be made. That's their only priority. I am amazed people cannot recognise AFL for what it is. Not much point in complaining that Grand Finals are always played at the MCG, or that certain clubs get easier fixtures than others, because it's not going to change.

There is no such thing as "fairness in football".

Exactly.

Australian Rules football is a sport.

The Australian Football League is a "sports entertainment business".

 

[The Warlord]

I don't think the AFL will ever seek to 'kill off' a Victorian club ala Fitzroy ever again. It doesn't achieve anything except alienate a whole bunch of what were actual paying and engaged football supporters. Noone wants to support a merged club either.

Yep, exactly that.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Now we are getting somewhere.
I think you are confusing difference with fairness.

No I'm not.

'Fair' means that everyone gets the same opportunities. The barrier draw in the Melbourne Cup for example, is fair. It's fair because it is totally random. Everyone gets the same chance.


'Even' relates to the differences.
Even though the barrier raw in he Melbourne Cup is fair - it's not even. It can't be. It's impossible. One horse will draw 24, and another will draw 6. This will have an enormous impact on their chances of winning.


The AFL fixture is not fair, and it is not even. It cannot possibly be debated otherwise.

 

[falcons2]

No I'm not.

'Fair' means that everyone gets the same opportunities.

Yep.
But in theory all teams come round one are equal, so who you play twice has no relevance.
We know this is not reality.
So what do you suggest? The 5 return games are drawn out of a hat. Would this create fairness?

 

[L_W_P]

Insecurity has nothing to do with it - it simply comes down to support and demographics.

The demographics say that two teams in rugby mad states is a recipe for failure.

As for the future even Tasmania has a stronger Aussie rules culture than either Sydney or Brissie.

Facts are facts.

I see at least two teams being dropped from Melbourne - 18 is too many and the AFL are incapable of admitting fault so will continue to prop up unsustainable franchises and do a hatchet job on two Melbourne teams.

I've been saying this for a few years.

Melbourne Saints & the Western Kangaroos is the way to go.

Re the fixture - It's possible to have every team play each other home and away, an even number of times, across an 8 year cycle. My issue isn't so much with the double ups (although that hurts) but it's with how long certain teams go without playing home/away.

Freo v Essendon for example, is almost exclusive to Perth. If they are only playing once a year then this should be shared, surely? Saints v Port and Hawks v Lions/Freo also.

Just really basic issues that the people running the game dont seem to care to fix.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

You've pretty much copied exactly what I said.



I'm not on a high horse about fairness. I've clearly stated that I'm happy with the approach being taken currently.


What I'm arguing, is that it clearly and blatantly is not fair. That just can't be argued.

The only thing that is open for debate is whether or not that is a good thing, or a bad thing.

So what would be your problem with a rolling fixture? No locked in Fixtures?

 

[The Warlord]

I've been saying this for a few years.

Melbourne Saints & the Western Kangaroos is the way to go.

Re the fixture - It's possible to have every team play each other home and away, an even number of times, across an 8 year cycle. My issue isn't so much with the double ups (although that hurts) but it's with how long certain teams go without playing home/away.

Freo v Essendon for example, is almost exclusive to Perth. If they are only playing once a year then this should be shared, surely? Saints v Port and Hawks v Lions/Freo also.

Just really basic issues that the people running the game dont seem to care to fix.

North tried to merge with Fitzroy and the other Melbourne clubs chucked a massive sook and voted it down.

 

[TheDarkDwarf]

Not true

60k plus for A league derbies, and big bash crowds the equivalent of anywhere else.

The 2016 QF has to be close to the highest AFL crowd outside of Victoria, albeit influenced by ground capacity.

Where are you getting your figures from mate? That 60,000 plus was from 2016/17 and was a WSW home game, same year FC home game - 40,000. The last two years FC home game (derbies) attendances have dropped considerably. 2017/18 - 36.000, 2018/19 - 31,000. The average attendance of Sydney FC matches has dropped from 16,609 in 05/06 to 14,593 in 17/18.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Yep.
But in theory all teams come round one are equal, so who you play twice has no relevance.
We know this is not reality.
So what do you suggest? The 5 return games are drawn out of a hat. Would this create fairness?

I'm not suggesting anything. As I've stated many times - I have no particular issue with the current system.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

So what would be your problem with a rolling fixture? No locked in Fixtures?

I couldn't care less either way.

I 'consume the product' as entertainment. Whether the comp is fair, or even or not doesn't particularly bother me.

 

[FootyJunkie]

If the AFL did conferences...

THE BIG NINE
CARLTON
COLLINGWOOD
ESSENDON
RICHMOND
HAWTHORN
WEST COAST
ADELAIDE
SYDNEY
BRISBANE

THE BIG WHINE
MELBOURNE
GEELONG
BULLDOGS
NORTH MELBOURNE
ST.KILDA
FREMANTLE
PORT ADELAIDE
GREATER WESTERN SYDNEY
GOLD COAST

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

The definition of insanity is having a national competition with 10 teams in a pissant, and ultimately minor state. Victoria is neither the biggest or the most dynamic state with potential for growth.

Im not Victorian but this is a bit much. What does an inflammatory statement like this achieve?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Yep.
But in theory all teams come round one are equal

No, they're not.

That's the whole point. When you line up in barrier 24 on Cup Day, you are not equal to the horse in barrier 6. You may be a better horse - but your chances of winning are nigh on zero.

When you line up in R1 of a 22 game season, because the draw is not even - your chances of winning the flag are not equal to other teams that have better or worse draws.

Being the 'best team' isn't enough. In some cases, the best team doesn't win because the handicapper brings them back to the pack.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I couldn't care less either way.

I 'consume the product' as entertainment. Whether the comp is fair, or even or not doesn't particularly bother me.

You my friend are the AFL's perfect fan. Just there for entertainment. Don't care to much about the sport itself, it's traditions. Will still watch it no matter what they do.
Entertainment for me is going to see a concert or a show. Football for me is not something I see as entertainment. If my side losers there is nothing entertaining about it. How the game looks is of no interest to me. My side either wins or losers and that is how football has always been for me.

 

[99cents]

The fixture is idiotic because the competition is unrealistic.

South Australia and Western Australia can support two teams as they are AFL states.

Even considering two teams in the home states of rugby is total insanity.

Wildly short sighted view.
Who thought the South to Sydney move in 1982 was going to pan out as it has?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

You my friend are the AFL's perfect fan. Just there for entertainment. Don't care to much about the sport itself, it's traditions. Will still watch it no matter what they do.
Entertainment for me is going to see a concert or a show. Football for me is not something I see as entertainment. If my side losers there is nothing entertaining about it. How the game looks is of no interest to me. My side either wins or losers and that is how football has always been for me.

Yeah, pretty much.

The danger for the AFL though, by catering the game for customers like me - is that I don't go to games, and I turn it off very quickly and watch other sports if it gets boring.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

No, they're not.

That's the whole point. When you line up in barrier 24 on Cup Day, you are not equal to the horse in barrier 6. You may be a better horse - but your chances of winning are nigh on zero.

When you line up in R1 of a 22 game season, because the draw is not even - your chances of winning the flag are not equal to other teams that have better or worse draws.

Being the 'best team' isn't enough. In some cases, the best team doesn't win because the handicapper brings them back to the pack.

I take it you don't think the Fav in the Cup tomorrow can win?

 

[Bleeeeeeeeep]

No divisions , amateur is copying America ect in changing the way our league is run, I love it the way it is!

You are thinking of conferences, divisions have been around a long time in Aussie rules and is in all bigger suburban leagues.
Conferences are BS.
The league is stagnant and filled with inconsistency, the AFL may not be able to fix the inconsistency with the rules but it sure can with how the game is run.

 

[Sttew]

Well the two points idea would eliminate those issues

eg, lets look at Collingwood's draw

Round 1 vs Geelong (4 points)
Round 2 vs Richmond (2 points)
Round 3 vs West Coast (2 points)
Round 4 vs Western Bulldogs (2 points)
Round 5 vs Brisbane (4 points)
Round 6 vs Essendon (2 points)
Round 7 vs Port Adelaide (4 points)
Round 8 vs Carlton (4 points)
Round 9 vs St Kilda (4 points)
Round 10 vs Sydney (4 points)
Round 11 vs Fremantle (4 points)
Round 12 vs Melbourne (2 points)
Round 14 vs Western Bulldogs (2 points)
Round 15 vs North Melbourne (4 points)
Round 16 vs Hawthorn (4 points)
Round 17 vs West Coast (2 points)
Round 18 vs GWS (4 points)
Round 19 vs Richmond (2 points)
Round 20 vs Gold Coast (4 points)
Round 21 vs Melbourne (2 points)
Round 22 vs Essendon (2 points)

It means in total every team can only get a maximum of 4 points from any other team, so there is no advantage to playing Carlton twice as you still only get 4 points in total, instead of getting 8.

I like it and I liked the post!

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Yeah, pretty much.

The danger for the AFL though, by catering the game for customers like me - is that I don't go to games, and I turn it off very quickly and watch other sports if it gets boring.

The whole league is now catered for fans like you. Which is why so many what i call traditional footy fans are disenchanted with the game.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I take it you don't think the Fav in the Cup tomorrow can win?

It can. But it has to be a few lengths better than anything else to do it. Whereas if the 'best horse wins' theory was applied - he'd only have to be the best horse by 1mm.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Im not Victorian but this is a bit much. What does an inflammatory statement like this achieve?

Hopefully there's a benefit in the poster I was responding to realise that respect is necessarily mutual. Everything in context I'd suggest.

 

[Sttew]

When will people ever understand that the AFL isn't a sporting contest? They couldn't give a rat's what's fair and equitable. It's a business that only cares about how much money can be made. That's their only priority. I am amazed people cannot recognise AFL for what it is. Not much point in complaining that Grand Finals are always played at the MCG, or that certain clubs get easier fixtures than others, because it's not going to change.

There is no such thing as "fairness in football".

I am not sure how you can say the AFL is not a sporting contest. Sure the 18 teams are not equal, but show me any sporting competition where all participants are equal.

You are confusing two concepts - the AFL entity that runs the competition, and the game itself. Of course the AFL cares only about how much money can be made and for a good reason I'd have thought, when you consider what the money is used for.

In the 2017 the AFL total revenue was $650.6 million, out of which the 18 clubs received $263.7 million. The $650.6 million was also used to fund the AFLW, payments to AFLPA, ground improvement payments for community and elite football facilities, etc. The profit out of the $650.6 million was $48.8 million, and that, we are told, will be used to "create a long-term capital reserve to underwrite the future of the game and increase distributions to Clubs, community and game development".

 

[99cents]

The answer is never "less football." Some posters claiming the season is too long- it has always been 22 matches.
Fifty sixty years or so.
The AFL ought to keep adding clubs, every decade or so.

1982/3- Swans
1987- Bears, Eagles
1991- Crows
1995- Dockers
1997- Powers
2010- Suns
2011- Giants

In time, the draw will even itself out more and more with extra clubs.