Essendon Premiers 2013-15?

[Slattery_20]

Would have beaten Eagles IMHO. They looked great in 06, but really the loss of two players turned them from a top side to a bottom side. Fairly poor premiership side. Kerr, Butler done nothing in 3-4 years, were they really that good to start with or did they just look good because of Judd/Cuz?

JJ or Kerr. split decision.
Hird or Judd. Hird just, IMHO.
Mercuri or Cuz. Cuz.
Misiti or Fletcher. Misiti.
Rest - meh vs meh.

That game we pipped them in 07 IMHO gives the real indication of just about their premiership 22 minus Judd and Cuz - average.

05 and 06 were just weak years.

 

[OB1]

That's not a fair comment. We were inches away from 2 more, and it wasn't our midfield which cost us those games.

Ben, at the risk of offending you, may I ask if you actually attended or have at least ever watched the 99 prelim or the 2001 GF? In 99 we had the most dominant power forward (Lloyd with 5) but its was Campo, Ratten & of course Kouta who won the game for Carlton (all mids). In 2001 we had Lucas as clearly the best tall on the ground followed by Lloyd (Lucas kicked the same as Lynch & Brown combined & Lloyd kicked 1 more than that). It was Brisbanes dominance in the midfield that not only won out that day but was the catalyst for their 3-peet.

Our midfield has been a weakness since the 80's.

 

[Slattery_20]

It was the 0.5 in the 2nd quarter that lost us '99.
Cara and Mercs kick a single major between them instead of 0.7, we win.

 

[OB1]

Hird, JJ, Mercuri, Misiti was a terrible midfield?
3 AAs, 1 BL, almost 2 others. Harsh.

Can you name a year after 2000 when these 4 even played together in our midfield let alone had any form? Individually I'm not suggesting those players were terrible but our midfield combination post 2000 was poor & degraded to terrible.

 

[Slattery_20]

Mercuri was knackered by the 01 pre-season, so no.
I didn't think that was the lines of the debate.

 

[LeeARM]

The midfield we had in 99-01 was definitely talented enough to win all 3 premierships, but you need more than talent to win premierships. Things need to go your way. In 99 we were 2 points away from the grand final, if just 1 of our missed shots went through we might have ended up winning the grand final.
I'm sure there were several moments in the 01 grand final where we could have won it too (I don't plan on watching it again to find out).

 

[Kong]

Most people don't remember this, but 2001 was our right until the beginning of the 4th quarter, and even then we were always in it.

We simply ran out of legs, and with Hird admitting that he was extremely ill, it doesn't surprise me that we we overran.

Funnily enough, he was beaten that day by one of the Scott brothers. Now he'll have the chance to inflict some pain on their side.

I wouldn't mind watching that game again, but I just can't, knowing how it ends.

Anyway....


* Stares off in to the distance *

 

[Super Gusto]

Ben, at the risk of offending you, may I ask if you actually attended or have at least ever watched the 99 prelim or the 2001 GF? In 99 we had the most dominant power forward (Lloyd with 5) but its was Campo, Ratten & of course Kouta who won the game for Carlton (all mids). In 2001 we had Lucas as clearly the best tall on the ground followed by Lloyd (Lucas kicked the same as Lynch & Brown combined & Lloyd kicked 1 more than that). It was Brisbanes dominance in the midfield that not only won out that day but was the catalyst for their 3-peet.

Our midfield has been a weakness since the 80's.

thought it was Fraser Brown (tackle of Wallis) that one them the game

 

[Dunn - Well Done]

I think that in most cases a true A grade midfielder will still be the same, whether in a top side or bottom side.

Judd has been with an average team for the last 3 years - And is still elite.

Do you think that Ablett will suddenly lose form for the GC in 2011.

I am certain that if Ablett or Judd played for EFC in 2011, that they would still be elite.

Do you consider Daniel Kerr an A grade midfielder??

 

[Giggidy Giggidy]

The midfield we had in 99-01 was definitely talented enough to win all 3 premierships, but you need more than talent to win premierships. Things need to go your way. In 99 we were 2 points away from the grand final, if just 1 of our missed shots went through we might have ended up winning the grand final.
I'm sure there were several moments in the 01 grand final where we could have won it too (I don't plan on watching it again to find out).

Or if Hird/Lucas/JJ weren't out injured.... or if Wallis had handballed sideways to Fletch to launch a goal/point.... or if we weren't thinking about the GF already....

 

[yodellinhank]

Coversely We enjoyed having Lloyd & Lucas, the best combo since Dermie & Dunstal but it only netted us 1 flag - WHY? Because our midfield was terrible...

...
Power forwards rely on midfield delivery. Put a cardboard cutout with sticky hands at FF & a good midfield will get the ball to it but you could have Lockett, Ablett, Coventry & Coleman down there & it wont make a difference if you can't get the ball to them. Midfields decide premierships.

Brisbane nailed almost every year in their window. They were able to do this by better injury management/luck and having more room in the salary cap to retain and indeed add players to the original group.

Other than that, Geelong are the only team to win more than the 1 flag we have this decade. And why did they lose 2008? Beaten by a team whose strength was key forwards.

How a team functions as a unit across the park is what determines premierships. Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn, Sydney and Essendon premiership teams are all good examples of this. We need to develop a system that revolves around utilizing our strengths and minimizing our weaknesses.

Richmond on paper has a pretty good midfield. So too Carlton. They need much more than that if they are to win a premiership.

 

[Walesy]

Brisbane nailed almost every year in their window. They were able to do this by better injury management/luck and having more room in the salary cap to retain and indeed add players to the original group.

Other than that, Geelong are the only team to win more than the 1 flag we have this decade. And why did they lose 2008? Beaten by a team whose strength was key forwards.

How a team functions as a unit across the park is what determines premierships. Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn, Sydney and Essendon premiership teams are all good examples of this. We need to develop a system that revolves around utilizing our strengths and minimizing our weaknesses.

Richmond on paper has a pretty good midfield. So too Carlton. They need much more than that if they are to win a premiership.

Bingo. We need to be smart and let our strengths dictate how we will beat the opposition.

 

[OB1]

Brisbane nailed almost every year in their window. They were able to do this by better injury management/luck and having more room in the salary cap to retain and indeed add players to the original group.

Other than that, Geelong are the only team to win more than the 1 flag we have this decade. And why did they lose 2008? Beaten by a team whose strength was key forwards.

Franklin & Roughead were well held in the GF & kicked the same amount of goals as Mooney & Lonergan. Hardley a great example of the importance of key forwards to winning premierships

How a team functions as a unit across the park is what determines premierships. Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn, Sydney and Essendon premiership teams are all good examples of this. We need to develop a system that revolves around utilizing our strengths and minimizing our weaknesses.

I absolutely agree that you need 22 players commited to the task but you still need to have the ability to go with it. Belief isn't enough outside of childrens fairy tales. With that in mind & related to this thread I believe that ability in the midfield is not only the most important ingredient, its also the one we are most lacking in. Hopefully the new coaches can address the weaknesses in our system & eventually our drafting addresses the weaknesses in our midfield.

Richmond on paper has a pretty good midfield. So too Carlton. They need much more than that if they are to win a premiership

Richmond has the Coleman medalist & fininshed second last. Richmond's good midfield on paper is still 19-20 years old. Don't be surprised when Richmonds fortunes rise of fall with the progress of guys like Martin & Cotchin.

As for Carlton well can there be a more obvious example of a club who has focussed on mids & is seeing the benefits. Remember that Carlton were down the bottom struggling with us 4 years ago but have overlooked talls in order to build a strong midfield unit. The net result is that they again won more games than us. Now of course they will need more than just a good midfield to progress further but they are an example of a side that played finals without any key position players of any note & their no.1 ruckman missing.

There is no 1 thing that = premiership success BUT I believe & the overwhelming evidence suggest that a strong midfield unit is a key factor. We've tried having great KP's (Lloyd, Lucas, Welman & Fletch are as good as any club could hope for) but we struggled once the midfield fell away. Now more than ever the game is won & lost through the opportunities you can give your forwards & the amount of assistance you can give your backs. This is where a strong core of 8-10 mids (wings & flankers rotating) is the key.

 

[Slattery_20]

Blues have only improved since they got Kreuzer.
RIchmond have similarly thrown most of their picks at mids, but haven't got a ruckman to speak of, they're 15th...

 

[Ben the Gooner]

I was at both games OB1, and cried in the carpark after 99.

We were one brain snap from Wallis and a handful of key injuries away from our own three-peat. Sure, we were outclassed in the midfield in both games, but we could/should have won the prelim despite that, and 2001 was over before it started with Hird, Long etc.'s injuries.

 

[yodellinhank]

Franklin & Roughead were well held in the GF & kicked the same amount of goals as Mooney & Lonergan. Hardley a great example of the importance of key forwards to winning premierships

Franklin was injured and ran the same role Lloyd did in the early stages of the 2000 GF before the game was settled; the dummy lead out to the flank.

The fact that Franklin could command such a presence on the field meant that Scarlett went with him and it destabilized the usually rock solid Cats defence. You can't do that sort of thing with a makeshift forward.

 

[OB1]

I was at both games OB1, and cried in the carpark after 99.

We were one brain snap from Wallis and a handful of key injuries away from our own three-peat. Sure, we were outclassed in the midfield in both games, but we could/should have won the prelim despite that, and 2001 was over before it started with Hird, Long etc.'s injuries.

And there is the answer. Our midfield was outclassed & we lost. It wasn't a lack of forwards or even the recent phenomenon of average forwards having days out against us. It was our midfield that cost us a 3-peet.

Our midfiled was good then but not good enough to get more than 1 flag. Our midfield since then has not been good enough to challenge for a flag despite the fact that our KP's remained the same for the majority of the decade after 2000. This is about as obvious & concise a body of evidence as you can get that midfields are the most important aspect in footy.

 

[OB1]

Franklin was injured and ran the same role Lloyd did in the early stages of the 2000 GF before the game was settled; the dummy lead out to the flank.

The fact that Franklin could command such a presence on the field meant that Scarlett went with him and it destabilized the usually rock solid Cats defence. You can't do that sort of thing with a makeshift forward.

Thats like me saying that Mitchell played as a decoy midfielder. FFS Franklin was well held by a cats defence that was well set up to handle key forwards. What Geelong have never been well setup to handle is small/medium forwards which is why it was Williams & Dew were the most dangerous forwards on the ground. This is also why Collingwood have had a good record against Geelong & Carlton surprised them earlier this year.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

And there is the answer. Our midfield was outclassed & we lost. It wasn't a lack of forwards or even the recent phenomenon of average forwards having days out against us. It was our midfield that cost us a 3-peet.

But we were inches away despite not having a brilliant midfield. Sure, if you added Cousins, Voss, Buckley etc. we'd have won three flags, but it's not like we couldn't have won 99 and 01 with the team we had.

 

[yodellinhank]

Thats like me saying that Mitchell played as a decoy midfielder. FFS Franklin was well held by a cats defence that was well set up to handle key forwards. What Geelong have never been well setup to handle is small/medium forwards which is why it was Williams & Dew were the most dangerous forwards on the ground. This is also why Collingwood have had a good record against Geelong & Carlton surprised them earlier this year.

No it isn't. That would be a ridiculous statement.

Hawthorn found gaping space inside the forward 50 because Lance lead out to the forward flank and drew all the heat (but most importantly Scarlett) with him. Hawthorn didn't target him with the ball, as they had done for most of the season. St Kilda of 09 could have learnt a lesson from Hawthorn of 08.

 

[yodellinhank]

And there is the answer. Our midfield was outclassed & we lost. It wasn't a lack of forwards or even the recent phenomenon of average forwards having days out against us. It was our midfield that cost us a 3-peet.

Our midfiled was good then but not good enough to get more than 1 flag. Our midfield since then has not been good enough to challenge for a flag despite the fact that our KP's remained the same for the majority of the decade after 2000. This is about as obvious & concise a body of evidence as you can get that midfields are the most important aspect in footy.

But how come Hawthorn's midfield was outclassed and they won in 08? Surely the cats would have won that grand final because they thumped the Hawks midfield?

Football works in trends and people love to follow the current successful trend. A fit Riewoldt in 09 and the ball sits up for Milne in the first grand final of 2010 and we might be talking about how a champion CHF separates the saints from the rest of the competition.

Your "body of evidence" is simply specious reasoning.

 

[OB1]

But how come Hawthorn's midfield was outclassed and they won in 08? Surely the cats would have won that grand final because they thumped the Hawks midfield?

Maybe its time you went back & watched the 2008 grand final again. Certainly Ablett was probably the best midfielder on the ground but to say Hawthorn's midfield was outclassed would be incorrect. In the 1st half of the game the best player on the ground was probably Young who of course was a Hawthorn midfielder. Sewell, Ellis, Osborne, Crawford & Lewis all were effective particulalry in the running game which is not what Geelong are great at. Geelong have long been quick at moving the ball not as quick at running it. Hawthorn didn't have as many high possesion winners as Geelongs midfield but they were better than Geelongs midfield on the day for efficiency. Hawthorn's midfield used the ball better so therefore were not outclassed.

Football works in trends and people love to follow the current successful trend. A fit Riewoldt in 09 and the ball sits up for Milne in the first grand final of 2010 and we might be talking about how a champion CHF separates the saints from the rest of the competition

Your "body of evidence" is simply specious reasoning

Which game did you actually watch? Never at any point in that game was Riewoldt close to being the difference. Just in case you missed it Lenny Hayes won the Norm Smith & the only bloke close to him in a Stkilda jumper was Goddard. If the ball had of bounced straight it would have rolled through for a goal & Lenny Hayes separates the Saints from the competition. Riewoldt again is a classic example of how a reliance of key forwards is not a great formula to win premierships because ultimately more often than not they have failed in the big dance. Riewoldt has had 1 OK performance from 3 GF's. Big forwards are the cream on the cake. They are useless without a midfield that can feed them.

You claim my evidence is specious resoning but provide none of your own. If you think having a strong midfield is some new trend then by all means give us some examples of sides who have not had a strong midfield yet won a flag (please don't waste your time trying to say Sydney with 2 time brownlow medal winning midfielder Goodes didn't have a strong midfield).

 

[OB1]

No it isn't. That would be a ridiculous statement.

Hawthorn found gaping space inside the forward 50 because Lance lead out to the forward flank and drew all the heat (but most importantly Scarlett) with him. Hawthorn didn't target him with the ball, as they had done for most of the season. St Kilda of 09 could have learnt a lesson from Hawthorn of 08.

So after all that you now reckon all we need is decoys talls. Top 10 drafts picks seem a high price to pay for decoys Hawthorn found space because they used the ball a lot better than Geelong & exposed Geelong's weakness for smaller forwards. Geelong had Hawthorn's talls covered with Scarlett, Harley (until he got injured) & Taylor so the smart play was to use Williams & Dew. Thats doesn't mean that the talls won the game.

Stkilda 09 possibly did learn a lesson from Hawthorn as ultimately it was Milne & Schnieder who had the best opportunities to win the game for Stkilda. Dew made chances from nothing while Milne found failure from easy chances. In 09 there was very little difference between the 2 sides as both had outstanding midfield talent & neiter could find a key forward to make a difference.

 

[OB1]

But we were inches away despite not having a brilliant midfield. Sure, if you added Cousins, Voss, Buckley etc. we'd have won three flags, but it's not like we couldn't have won 99 and 01 with the team we had.

We were inches away in 99 from a GF berth. In 2001 we were inches away from Croad kicking a goal that hit the post & another that may have been marked on the line. Ultimately in the 2001 GF we were not inches away. We did a great job in the backline holding their key forwards & we did a fantastic job in the forward line with our 2 guns clearly the best on the ground. We were a long way behind them in the midfield. From there our midfield dissolved.

 

[magpie10]

That is the worst F****ng team ive ever seen you will be very lucky to win 5+ games in 2013 with that list let alone a premiership.

As we showeded this year its then just youth which is what seems to give false hope to so many essendon supporters. 'Oh reimers may be shit now but he will improve exponentially and kick 50+goals in 2013" FFS if he is shit now i cant imagine how much shitter he would be in 2 years.

Watson is your only B Grade player but hes no Pendlebury so good luck there.

James Hird = Michael Voss Mk II