Expansion Expansion, A Fair Draw & Prosperity for the AFL in the Future

[glengowan]

The AFL seem to think two new teams in the Gold Coast and Western Sydney are viable and will go ahead. My concern is the pressure these two teams will put on existing AFL clubs and State League competitions (and grass roots competitions and clubs) throughout Australia. The other thing I hate about the AFL is the unfair fixtures. So here is an idea of how the AFL could set itself up to prosper, be a fair sporting competition and strengthen football in general.

The Set Up

A 16 team competition to be split into two conferences.

The Allies Conference to consist of the following teams:
West Coast & Fremantle co-tenants of Stadium WA
Adelaide & Port Adelaide co-tenants of Football Park
Brisbane Lions all home games at the Gabba
Gold Coast all home games at Carrara
Sydney Swans all home games at the SCG
Western Sydney all home games at Olympic Stadium

The Victorians Conference to consist of the following teams:
Collingwood all home games at the MCG
Carlton all home games at Docklands
Essendon all home games at Docklands
St. Kilda all home games at Docklands
Geelong all home games at Kardinia Park
Tasmania Hawks, 8 home games at Launceston, 3 at MCG
Melbourne Tigers all home games at MCG
Western Kangaroos all home games at Docklands

The “New” Clubs

Gold Coast Football Club
- Based at Carrara with all home matches played from there

Western Sydney Football Club
- Based at Blacktown with all home games played at the Olympic Stadium

Tasmania Hawks
- A continuation of Hawthorn
- Based at Waverly
- 8 home games in Launceston, 3 at the MCG

Melbourne Tigers
- A merger of Richmond and Melbourne
- Colours Black, Gold and Red

Western Kangaroos
- A merger of Western Bulldogs and North Melbourne
- Based at Whitten Oval
- Colours Blue and White

The Fixture

Rounds 1-7 1st Leg of Internal Conference matches
All-Star match Victorians vs Allies
Rounds 8-15 vs other conference teams
Rounds 16-22 2nd Leg of Internal Conference matches

The Finals

The top 3 of each conference qualify to take positions 1-6 in the Finals. The position of the 6 teams is based on a merger of the ladders to determine who has the better overall result. These 6 teams get a break between Round 22 and the 1st week of Finals.

“Round 23” is to determine who gets positions 7 and 8 in the finals. 4th placed Victorians plays 5th placed Allies in one elimination game and 4th placed Allies play 5th placed Victorians in the other elimination game.

The Final 8 is then played as a 4 week finals series as it is now.

The Draft & Salary Cap

Would be as it is now except teams would be given the opportunity to use their 4th Round pick on a pre-picked player from their zone. It would be the responsibility, with funding from the AFL, for the clubs to oversee grass roots footy in their zone, including country areas.

The Victorians could have an 8 team “Reserves” and elite under 18 teams instead of the current set up with the AFL.

West Coast and Fremantle would look after the WAFL, Adelaide and Port the SANFL, Brisbane and Gold Coast the QAFL and Sydney and Western Sydney the NSWAFL.

The Problem

5 of the current Victorian clubs would have to change/adapt in order for football in general to go forward.

The Benefits

- A fair draw
- A meaningful representative game
- Maximising attendance
- Keeping standards up
- Allowing traditional state leagues stability
- Growing the game nationally
- Responsibility towards grass-roots football
- Stronger Victorian clubs through less competition

 

[boncer34]

Haha this will be shot down in about 5 posts.

 

[tandino]

Haha this will be shot down in about 5 posts.

I'll give it 4 Bonce.

 

[steve-o]

I hate the two-conference idea - it doesn't work the way you people want it to.

Post 3.

EDIT: Oooh I know.

Use one of the other "fair draw" "schedule" or "conferences" threads.

 

[PumpyChowdown]

Actually, I quite like that set up. The only downside I can see is severe inequality in the crowd attendances between the two conferences.

 

[woosh_era]

So one 'division' hauls its arse all over the country for 6 months while the other drives thier car to each game? Good system.

 

[McCrann]

The AFL seem to think two new teams in the Gold Coast and Western Sydney are viable and will go ahead. My concern is the pressure these two teams will put on existing AFL clubs and State League competitions (and grass roots competitions and clubs) throughout Australia. The other thing I hate about the AFL is the unfair fixtures. So here is an idea of how the AFL could set itself up to prosper, be a fair sporting competition and strengthen football in general.

The Set Up

A 16 team competition to be split into two conferences.

The Allies Conference to consist of the following teams:
West Coast & Fremantle co-tenants of Stadium WA
Adelaide & Port Adelaide co-tenants of Football Park
Brisbane Lions all home games at the Gabba
Gold Coast all home games at Carrara
Sydney Swans all home games at the SCG
Western Sydney all home games at Olympic Stadium

The Victorians Conference to consist of the following teams:
Collingwood all home games at the MCG
Carlton all home games at Docklands
Essendon all home games at Docklands
St. Kilda all home games at Docklands
Geelong all home games at Kardinia Park
Tasmania Hawks, 8 home games at Launceston, 3 at MCG
Melbourne Tigers all home games at MCG
Western Kangaroos all home games at Docklands

The “New” Clubs

Gold Coast Football Club
- Based at Carrara with all home matches played from there

Western Sydney Football Club
- Based at Blacktown with all home games played at the Olympic Stadium

Tasmania Hawks
- A continuation of Hawthorn
- Based at Waverly
- 8 home games in Launceston, 3 at the MCG

Melbourne Tigers
- A merger of Richmond and Melbourne
- Colours Black, Gold and Red

Western Kangaroos
- A merger of Western Bulldogs and North Melbourne
- Based at Whitten Oval
- Colours Blue and White

The Fixture

Rounds 1-7 1st Leg of Internal Conference matches
All-Star match Victorians vs Allies
Rounds 8-15 vs other conference teams
Rounds 16-22 2nd Leg of Internal Conference matches

The Finals

The top 3 of each conference qualify to take positions 1-6 in the Finals. The position of the 6 teams is based on a merger of the ladders to determine who has the better overall result. These 6 teams get a break between Round 22 and the 1st week of Finals.

“Round 23” is to determine who gets positions 7 and 8 in the finals. 4th placed Victorians plays 5th placed Allies in one elimination game and 4th placed Allies play 5th placed Victorians in the other elimination game.

The Final 8 is then played as a 4 week finals series as it is now.

The Draft & Salary Cap

Would be as it is now except teams would be given the opportunity to use their 4th Round pick on a pre-picked player from their zone. It would be the responsibility, with funding from the AFL, for the clubs to oversee grass roots footy in their zone, including country areas.

The Victorians could have an 8 team “Reserves” and elite under 18 teams instead of the current set up with the AFL.

West Coast and Fremantle would look after the WAFL, Adelaide and Port the SANFL, Brisbane and Gold Coast the QAFL and Sydney and Western Sydney the NSWAFL.

The Problem

5 of the current Victorian clubs would have to change/adapt in order for football in general to go forward.

The Benefits

- A fair draw
- A meaningful representative game
- Maximising attendance
- Keeping standards up
- Allowing traditional state leagues stability
- Growing the game nationally
- Responsibility towards grass-roots football
- Stronger Victorian clubs through less competition

You're crazy mate!

Haven't you noticed how much everyone loves mergers and relocations yet?

 

[DoggieStyle07]

The Victorian Conference and Australian Conference is a great idea in my opinion. As the original poster has suggested it would bring alot of benefits to the comp to make it fairer and even more financially viable:

- the same draw for every team in each conference = much fairer

- all 'big' victorian based games still get to be played twice a year (which is scheduled in now anyway - and unfairly to the advantage of the big clubs).

- all derby/showdown matches still are played twice a year for non victorian teams

- victorian sides financially benefit from greater attendances from opposition supporters by playing all vic sides twice 'home' and 'away'. Minimises games against non-vic teams with lower attendances.

- non-vic teams benefit from greater building of inter-city based rivalries (similar to A-League), and the non-vic conference has a more national feel. Do teams representing big cities really need or want to play so much against 'suburbs' of melbourne.

- All teams still play all teams in the opposite conference once during the season so existing rivalries between vic clubs and non vic clubs can continue.

Really it is not that much different to what we have now, it is just a fairer and more practical system.

 

[stephen_bayne]

Perhaps instead of playing only against teams in thier conference they should play the majority of thier games against teams from thier conference with a couple of games against teams from the other conference. Also not sure the Basketball franchise of the same name would agree giving up the name Melbourne Tigers.

 

[Professor Knowall]

A few comments on the "resurrected VFL"

...The Victorians Conference to consist of the following teams:
Collingwood all home games at the MCG - and all away games too. Docklands is now too small for Collingwood v any Melbourne club (e.g. last Friday nights lock-out against the Saints).
Carlton all home games at Docklands - relocate this criminal cheating scum outfit to West Sydney to become the West Sydney Blues.
Essendon all home games at Docklands - OK
St. Kilda all home games at Docklands - OK
Geelong all home games at Kardinia Park - except v Collingwood, which must be at the MCG.
Tasmania Hawks, 8 home games at Launceston, 3 at MCG - won't happen
Melbourne Tigers all home games at MCG - Send Melbourne to Tasmania instead to become the Tasmanian Devils.
Western Kangaroos all home games at Docklands - OK
...

 

[Gibbke]

Outside some attendance rationalisation, which would still differ very little from what's currently in place, there is not one single shred of evidence to prove that any of those "benefits" in the very first post will happen.

- A fair draw - how? One league spends every week on a plane, the other spends every week hanging out in the Melbourne CBD.

- A meaningful representative game - you can't be serious...

- Maximising attendance - all you're doing is decreasing Vic home games against interstaters, and by nearly nothing at that...

- Keeping standards up - absolutely no evidence.

- Allowing traditional state leagues stability - absolutely no evidence.

- Growing the game nationally - hmmm...sounds like a corporate buzz phrase...no, there might be a spinoff, but 25 years of the Swans sure tells a story...and do we need to sell Australian Rules to Tassie...?

- Responsibility towards grass-roots football - absolutely no evidence.

- Stronger Victorian clubs through less competition - anyone here heard of the national draft? When these expansion sides are built, they will need a healthy top up of draftees, and as we've already seen, the AFL wants to give just the two new sides the first dozen or so every year for the rest of our lifetimes! And if the Hawks go to Tassie and you have two mergers, you'll see all sorts of little quirks...the big losers will be the old Vics, because they'll be forced to endure slim pickings every November as they go through lean spells no less severe than Carlton's...

 

[catters05]

20 Teams
19 Rounds

 

[woosh_era]

14 teams
2 full rounds

 

[Gibbke]

The biggest myth in footy (alongside many others!) is that there is indeed such a thing as a "fair" or "perfect" draw...

You cannot have a draw where every team gets every aspect equalised with every other team, unless you have 2 teams from every state, make them all share a ground, play the games at the same time, and somehow geographically shift Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Perth and Brisbane to locations an equal distance from each other. Only once you've done this, and then forcibly relocated Australia's population so that every state has an equal population and therefore an equal demographic base to draw from, killed off any excess supporters so that all are equally supported (Collingwood fans start running now), and lastly up/downsized every stadium so that they are all equal in capacity, will you then address the common grizzle points of plane flights, tv timeslots, player recruitment possibilities, gate receipts, blockbusters for those who have v those who don't...

Me personally, I say that whenever my team takes the field, whether it be the MCG, York Park, Subi or Dubai, they will tackle whoever whenever wherever the same way. And anyone who thinks that everyone playing everyone twice will fix supposed problems, is being a simplistic idiot.

 

[Speck]

I don't mind the idea but it has too many flaws to work well.

As pointed out, one conference spends half its time on a plane, one spends time driving to their games. This simply doesn't work.

One idea I wouldn't be opposed to is similar to the OP's.

2 Conferences (An example):

Gold Coast
West Sydney
West Coast
Adelaide
St Kilda
Essendon
Richmond
Hawthorn
Bulldogs

Brisbane
Sydney
Fremantle
Port Adelaide
Carlton
Collingwood
Geelong
Kangaroos
Melbourne

It could change every year. 1 Adelaide team, 1 Sydney, 1 Queensland, 5 Victorian & 1 Perth. You play every team in your conference twice and teams outside your conference once. We could either have one ladder (final 8 as it is now) or two (top 4 from each conference, rankings decided as like one big ladder).

A pretty fair draw IMO.

 

[Gibbke]

Why would you deny SA and WA fans the two games they want the most - the local showdowns? What's fair about this?

Here's mine:
- 4 conferences (WA-SA, NSW-QLD (both 4 teams), and 2 Victorian ones (both 5) which can be changed every year).
- You play your division twice, and everyone else once.
- The 4 team divisions play an extra game against their respective opposites from the previous season. This makes for a 21-round draw. If you want 22, all 18 teams play their respective opposites.
- Top team makes the top 4, in order of performances, just like the NFL. The next 5-8 of the 8 are the teams with the best records. You then run a normal Top 8.

Here's an example, based on the current ladder (or close):
West---------North--------Vic 1--------Vic 2
1 Adelaide----1 Sydney-----1 Geelong---1 Hawks
2 Port--------2 Brisbane----2 Doggies----2 Collingwood
3 Eagles------3 West Syd--3 Richmond---3 Kangas
4 Freo--------4 GCoast----4 Essendon---4 Saints
---------------------------5 Melbourne--5 Carlton

Top 8:
Adelaide, Sydney, Geelong, Hawthorn, and then the 4 next best, no matter which division they come from...then run a top 8...

Advantages - Rivalries, the most important games for all fans, are maintained, and many so-called draw flaws that others complain about are lessened...you won't make travel equitable, but this system does ensure that a team isn't disadvantaged against other teams on the ladder on it (e.g. WA and SA teams with their lengthy travel only need to worry about each other, and the top team gets a top 4 spot - no problem...I'd argue that teams 5-8 have no right to argue anyway if they didn't finish on top). All the Vics want to play the Big 3, all the interstaters want to play their neighbours - this is where they make their real inroads in marketing, the AFL is a business - it's madness not to accomodate this...

On a more cynical note, you can also cater for axed teams. If we lose 2 teams for whatever reason (mergers, relocation, liquidation), they will be Vics, we all know this, so there is room for 2 sides to bite the dust and the draw isn't adversely affected - if anything it becomes more symmetrical...

Disadvantages - like many things, some won't get it...and I like the idea of our current single big ladder as opposed to this NFL-influenced model...

 

[arkie]

I don't think the Bulldogs will ever merge. If it did happen I would no longer follow AFL. We also actually made a profit last year, and have nearly completed our new facilities at the Whitten Oval. End.

 

[The Teflon Dean]

The AFL seem to think two new teams in the Gold Coast and Western Sydney are viable and will go ahead. My concern is the pressure these two teams will put on existing AFL clubs and State League competitions (and grass roots competitions and clubs) throughout Australia. The other thing I hate about the AFL is the unfair fixtures. So here is an idea of how the AFL could set itself up to prosper, be a fair sporting competition and strengthen football in general.

The Set Up

A 16 team competition to be split into two conferences.

The Allies Conference to consist of the following teams:
West Coast & Fremantle co-tenants of Stadium WA
Adelaide & Port Adelaide co-tenants of Football Park
Brisbane Lions all home games at the Gabba
Gold Coast all home games at Carrara
Sydney Swans all home games at the SCG
Western Sydney all home games at Olympic Stadium

The Victorians Conference to consist of the following teams:
Collingwood all home games at the MCG
Carlton all home games at Docklands
Essendon all home games at Docklands
St. Kilda all home games at Docklands
Geelong all home games at Kardinia Park
Tasmania Hawks, 8 home games at Launceston, 3 at MCG
Melbourne Tigers all home games at MCG
Western Kangaroos all home games at Docklands

The “New” Clubs

Gold Coast Football Club
- Based at Carrara with all home matches played from there

Western Sydney Football Club
- Based at Blacktown with all home games played at the Olympic Stadium

Tasmania Hawks
- A continuation of Hawthorn
- Based at Waverly
- 8 home games in Launceston, 3 at the MCG

Melbourne Tigers
- A merger of Richmond and Melbourne
- Colours Black, Gold and Red

Western Kangaroos
- A merger of Western Bulldogs and North Melbourne
- Based at Whitten Oval
- Colours Blue and White

The Fixture

Rounds 1-7 1st Leg of Internal Conference matches
All-Star match Victorians vs Allies
Rounds 8-15 vs other conference teams
Rounds 16-22 2nd Leg of Internal Conference matches

The Finals

The top 3 of each conference qualify to take positions 1-6 in the Finals. The position of the 6 teams is based on a merger of the ladders to determine who has the better overall result. These 6 teams get a break between Round 22 and the 1st week of Finals.

“Round 23” is to determine who gets positions 7 and 8 in the finals. 4th placed Victorians plays 5th placed Allies in one elimination game and 4th placed Allies play 5th placed Victorians in the other elimination game.

The Final 8 is then played as a 4 week finals series as it is now.

The Draft & Salary Cap

Would be as it is now except teams would be given the opportunity to use their 4th Round pick on a pre-picked player from their zone. It would be the responsibility, with funding from the AFL, for the clubs to oversee grass roots footy in their zone, including country areas.

The Victorians could have an 8 team “Reserves” and elite under 18 teams instead of the current set up with the AFL.

West Coast and Fremantle would look after the WAFL, Adelaide and Port the SANFL, Brisbane and Gold Coast the QAFL and Sydney and Western Sydney the NSWAFL.

The Problem

5 of the current Victorian clubs would have to change/adapt in order for football in general to go forward.

The Benefits

- A fair draw
- A meaningful representative game
- Maximising attendance
- Keeping standards up
- Allowing traditional state leagues stability
- Growing the game nationally
- Responsibility towards grass-roots football
- Stronger Victorian clubs through less competition

Typical franchise mentality.

I don't think the Bulldogs will ever merge. If it did happen I would no longer follow AFL. We also actually made a profit last year, and have nearly completed our new facilities at the Whitten Oval. End.

You wouldn't be Robinson Crusoe mate.

A combined 60,000 membership would shrink to about 10,000 in the blink of an eye, and soccer would be entrenched in the multicultural west of Melbourne for ever more.

 

[cheeky_chilean]

The AFL seem to think two new teams in the Gold Coast and Western Sydney are viable and will go ahead. My concern is the pressure these two teams will put on existing AFL clubs and State League competitions (and grass roots competitions and clubs) throughout Australia. The other thing I hate about the AFL is the unfair fixtures. So here is an idea of how the AFL could set itself up to prosper, be a fair sporting competition and strengthen football in general.

The Set Up

A 16 team competition to be split into two conferences.

The Allies Conference to consist of the following teams:
West Coast & Fremantle co-tenants of Stadium WA
Adelaide & Port Adelaide co-tenants of Football Park
Brisbane Lions all home games at the Gabba
Gold Coast all home games at Carrara
Sydney Swans all home games at the SCG
Western Sydney all home games at Olympic Stadium

The Victorians Conference to consist of the following teams:
Collingwood all home games at the MCG
Carlton all home games at Docklands
Essendon all home games at Docklands
St. Kilda all home games at Docklands
Geelong all home games at Kardinia Park
Tasmania Hawks, 8 home games at Launceston, 3 at MCG
Melbourne Tigers all home games at MCG
Western Kangaroos all home games at Docklands

The “New” Clubs

Gold Coast Football Club
- Based at Carrara with all home matches played from there

Western Sydney Football Club
- Based at Blacktown with all home games played at the Olympic Stadium

Tasmania Hawks
- A continuation of Hawthorn
- Based at Waverly
- 8 home games in Launceston, 3 at the MCG

Melbourne Tigers
- A merger of Richmond and Melbourne
- Colours Black, Gold and Red

Western Kangaroos
- A merger of Western Bulldogs and North Melbourne
- Based at Whitten Oval
- Colours Blue and White

The Fixture

Rounds 1-7 1st Leg of Internal Conference matches
All-Star match Victorians vs Allies
Rounds 8-15 vs other conference teams
Rounds 16-22 2nd Leg of Internal Conference matches

The Finals

The top 3 of each conference qualify to take positions 1-6 in the Finals. The position of the 6 teams is based on a merger of the ladders to determine who has the better overall result. These 6 teams get a break between Round 22 and the 1st week of Finals.

“Round 23” is to determine who gets positions 7 and 8 in the finals. 4th placed Victorians plays 5th placed Allies in one elimination game and 4th placed Allies play 5th placed Victorians in the other elimination game.

The Final 8 is then played as a 4 week finals series as it is now.

The Draft & Salary Cap

Would be as it is now except teams would be given the opportunity to use their 4th Round pick on a pre-picked player from their zone. It would be the responsibility, with funding from the AFL, for the clubs to oversee grass roots footy in their zone, including country areas.

The Victorians could have an 8 team “Reserves” and elite under 18 teams instead of the current set up with the AFL.

West Coast and Fremantle would look after the WAFL, Adelaide and Port the SANFL, Brisbane and Gold Coast the QAFL and Sydney and Western Sydney the NSWAFL.

The Problem

5 of the current Victorian clubs would have to change/adapt in order for football in general to go forward.

The Benefits

- A fair draw
- A meaningful representative game
- Maximising attendance
- Keeping standards up
- Allowing traditional state leagues stability
- Growing the game nationally
- Responsibility towards grass-roots football
- Stronger Victorian clubs through less competition

I really like this "conference" system. except i think i would relocate two victorian clubs to west sydney and gold cosat instead of merging them. Also no sure about the play-offs. just keep the top 8 system that is in place now. Also it could gurantee all the victorian clubs 4 road games a season to (sydney,brisbane,adelaide and perth) which could alternate every season.

 

[Wednesday]

How about 24 teams. 2 divisions (Div 1 and Div 2). 22 rounds each.

All teams play each other twice.

2 up 2 down every season.

Existing 16 teams plus 8 new.

New teams

Gold Coast
Western Sydney
Canberra
Hobart/Launceston or Tassie (let them work it out)
3rd WA team (new or from WAFL)
3rd SA team (new or from SANFL)
Darwin
1 more team from Sunshine Coast/Townsville/Cairns/Newcastle/Central Coast etc

Introduce 4 teams in 2011 and another 4 in 2015.

 

[funkyfetlock]

Why would you deny SA and WA fans the two games they want the most - the local showdowns? What's fair about this?

Here's mine:
- 4 conferences (WA-SA, NSW-QLD (both 4 teams), and 2 Victorian ones (both 5) which can be changed every year).
- You play your division twice, and everyone else once.
- The 4 team divisions play an extra game against their respective opposites from the previous season. This makes for a 21-round draw. If you want 22, all 18 teams play their respective opposites.
- Top team makes the top 4, in order of performances, just like the NFL. The next 5-8 of the 8 are the teams with the best records. You then run a normal Top 8.

Here's an example, based on the current ladder (or close):
West---------North--------Vic 1--------Vic 2
1 Adelaide----1 Sydney-----1 Geelong---1 Hawks
2 Port--------2 Brisbane----2 Doggies----2 Collingwood
3 Eagles------3 West Syd--3 Richmond---3 Kangas
4 Freo--------4 GCoast----4 Essendon---4 Saints
---------------------------5 Melbourne--5 Carlton

Top 8:
Adelaide, Sydney, Geelong, Hawthorn, and then the 4 next best, no matter which division they come from...then run a top 8...

I like this idea very much. It is equitable and really builds up the local rivalries.

Can you please send this suggestion to Demetiou?

 

[Black Falcon]

Gibbke, your conference system based on the NFL makes a whole lot of sense. Its easily understandable and applicable. Each year, turn-about, fans know if they'll be playing any other team at H/A, according to the model.

Rivalries are strengthened, and whatever are the outcomes of the R/M/L/Drop down to VFL scenario for some Melb clubs, the model isn't affected adversely.

I feel the AFL could adopt this NFL model easily, when GC and WS teams are included.

The current draw is a 'lucky dip' completely dependent on when you meet the stronger teams (the order keeps changing) re your teams position on the table. With the above model, you'll know a year in advance. The spectators too could plan their travel to games better. Most wonderfully, every Melb team would have to travel four times per year out of the state!

With the conferences separate to a degree, the Melb confs could vie for the "Victoria Cup" on points, same as the "Allies Cup", much the same as the minor premiership is decided. (See first post on thread)

The Gibbke Model would save on travel for the Interstaters, whilst the Melb folks pining for the old VFL would have more of a semblance of it in the two Melb confs (and Vic Cup).

 

[Gibbke]

Sweet - two sets of thumbs up. I'm calling it the "Gibbke AFL Schedule System" (just like the "McIntyre Final 8"), slapping a big patent on it, and it's mine, Mine, MINE!!! You heard it here first!

Should be able to buy my lunch every day from now on, if it catches on...

 

[Portia]

It is easy to have a fair draw. Either make it rotational, (you play carlton, then freo, then 14 other clubs and then carlton again, and if you were at home last time, you're away this time) or design the fixture in advance by final placing for the current season. (eg. last year's 1st vs 2nd on Anzac Day)

Conferences are rubbish.

 

[Paddy_Mac]

I have to say that I like the Gibbke model.