Coach Fages and the coaching group

[mpal6]

Not sure it was ever really a strength. Neale is probably back to his best but everyone else has dropped off. It's probably debatable if Clug was more impactful on the wing.

Neale and Lyons used to be a good combo in the clearance and Oscar isn't anywhere near where Stef was at his peak.

Zorko is a shell of the player he was in 2019

I put a lot of it on poor drafting and development

Nope, drafting looks pretty decent to me. Deven, Prior, Tunstill, Wilmot, Lohmann - lot of positives there.

Development - yes. we needed to rotate these players into first 22 and leave them in if they're good. Prior is one of our best 2 way runners and he's been left in the 2s after injury. Others came straight back in because of their experience and what we could call as a core group of players.

We keep playing the core group week in week out, we tend to become stale and the draftees will look elsewhere for opportunity. We can't blame them either, end of the day they need to progress with their career as well.

 

[mpal6]

You'd almost have to think that Madden should be given a job on Saad next week as Keays did exceptionally well on him. KNowing our coaches, they'l leave Saad unchecked b/c God forbid we tag someone.

We'll do our thing, play our way. Let them worry about us. Bane of this club. Sigh.

I am not even going to talk about Madden now after weeks n week of parroting about needing him for finals.

 

[cotter101]

Robbo and Lyons as good as they’ve been for us can’t be in the team much longer. Really hope we bring in another midfielder this year.

 

[JB42]

Your vendetta against Marcus is the second weirdest individual vendetta on this forum. It's highly unusual. There are, to my count, five or six regulars in the senior team who it could be well worth tearing your hair out about this season in one way or another. I just can't see how Marcus could possibly be one of them.

Even though he hasn't matched his brilliant early season form since coming back from Covid, I still think he has been our best key defender most weeks (and probably was again today). It's just a very unusual hill to die on.

He was sensational early in the year, marking everything. Seems to have list his judgement or something, maybe too concerned about his direct opponent or something. He has been misjudging the flight and trying to spoil instead of Mark and letting the ball out the back.

Maybe Payne looks most likely to take a reliving mark now? Andrews doesn't even fly or commit his body to aerial contests anymore... embarrassing how often he just watches the ball go by to be marked by a small.

 

[KissKiss]

Would love to know what we had planned to stop Bolton having a huge influence on the game. They knew Starcevich was 50/50 on Monday so we had time to think a plan through properly. We could all see that was a problem coming into the game yet it seems we did nothing about it. It was embarassing how many times he was all by himself in the forward half. It seems all we do as a coaching group is assign a match up and that's it. And we had no plan for him in the centre bounces, he was standing on his own every time.

Oscar was dominating in the ruck yesterday yet we persisted with Fort in the centre bounces in the second half. I have no idea what is going through their heads at times. Just play Fort fwd and keep Oscar in at centre bounces for his better reach over Nankervus.

The thing that alarms me is this is all common sense stuff that we all know and see at the ground. If you have a lighter/ faster player at a centre bounce to deal with then body him up/ arm across him at all times. Those players don't like body contact. We don't seem to worry about it at all.

It was kind of mid blowing sitting in the stand directly above the Answerth/Bolton matchup and from the first quarter he was standing a good 10-15m away and not paying him any attention. For a guy who is meant to be a good lockdown style defender, I would question everything about the coaching of that matchup. I saw so little attention put into Bolton that I would question they considered it all week

 

[RoyBoy17]

Nope, drafting looks pretty decent to me. Deven, Prior, Tunstill, Wilmot, Lohmann - lot of positives there.

Development - yes. we needed to rotate these players into first 22 and leave them in if they're good. Prior is one of our best 2 way runners and he's been left in the 2s after injury. Others came straight back in because of their experience and what we could call as a core group of players.

We keep playing the core group week in week out, we tend to become stale and the draftees will look elsewhere for opportunity. We can't blame them either, end of the day they need to progress with their career as well.

We have made some huge blues though. Cox ahead of Bolton and Schache ahead of Oliver. Put Oliver and Bolton in our team now and we win the flag.

 

[mpal6]

We have made some huge blues though. Cox ahead of Bolton and Schache ahead of Oliver. Put Oliver and Bolton in our team now and we win the flag.

Schache was the next coming for Lions during that draft and we were not going to pick anyone else there.

Cox for Bolton - well we can't get everything perfect anyway. Cox did show signs, unfortunate he couldn't stay on park. I still remember Cox for his monster goal from 50m arc tight up against the boundary while being bumped by opposition player. Disposal and kicking skills were exquisite.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Do we sack him?

I can't say he's doing a good job, however, this is his first season in the role and the problems pre-dated him. Lyons and Zorko are simply not fast enough anymore, no coach can prevent that happening. But I would like it if Hugh looked like he knew what he was doing when he's in the middle.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

We have made some huge blues though. Cox ahead of Bolton and Schache ahead of Oliver. Put Oliver and Bolton in our team now and we win the flag.

The current brass didn't draft Schache. 17 other teams also missed on Bolton.

 

[martinson]

It's totally pointless looking back at what we should've done at drafts . Except for the brains trust to learn something from it if we did make any obvious blues. No one was whinging much at the time. It's a bit of a lottery and you need luck. It's possible we've hit the jackpot with Lohmann.

It's becoming clearer some guys just aren't going to get us there. I had hopes Zorks would overcome his injury woes but he's just a shadow of his former self ,even earlier in the year, at the moment. We can't continue to carry Lyons who doesn't do enough for your NO.2 mid. Robbo is cooked. He just had to make a concentrated better effort at that last shot on goal yesterday. Then he reminds everyone by blabbing on SM. Answerth isn't up to it imo ,lacks the skill level and awareness despite Fages pumping his tyres every second week. Harris looked completely cooked yesterday . Can't get off the ground or run. Gardiner is a liability at times. Adams is not right either. We missed Starc's steadiness terribly in that last half.

That's just for starters.

So we're probably doing a good job to be in these matches all things considered. Maybe the above mentioned deficiencies caught up with us once the Tigers got a run on. We still should've won it in the 4th. How many chances did we fluff ?

 

[Tom14]

It's totally pointless looking back at what we should've done at drafts . Except for the brains trust to learn something from it if we did make any obvious blues. No one was whinging much at the time. It's a bit of a lottery and you need luck. It's possible we've hit the jackpot with Lohmann.

It's becoming clearer some guys just aren't going to get us there. I had hopes Zorks would overcome his injury woes but he's just a shadow of his former self ,even earlier in the year, at the moment. We can't continue to carry Lyons who doesn't do enough for your NO.2 mid. Robbo is cooked. He just had to make a concentrated better effort at that last shot on goal yesterday. Then he reminds everyone by blabbing on SM. Answerth isn't up to it imo ,lacks the skill level and awareness despite Fages pumping his tyres every second week. Harris looked completely cooked yesterday . Can't get off the ground or run. Gardiner is a liability at times. Adams is not right either. We missed Starc's steadiness terribly in that last half.

That's just for starters.

So we're probably doing a good job to be in these matches all things considered. Maybe the above mentioned deficiencies caught up with us once the Tigers got a run on. We still should've won it in the 4th. How many chances did we fluff ?

Reasonably sad that the lasting memory of Mitch that I will have from this year is him celebrating like we'd won the grand final when he kicked his second vs the Dees, then him missing a sitter that would have given us the lead yesterday. Just needs to be out of the team, no point to having him in there.

 

[KissKiss]

Reasonably sad that the lasting memory of Mitch that I will have from this year is him celebrating like we'd won the grand final when he kicked his second vs the Dees, then him missing a sitter that would have given us the lead yesterday. Just needs to be out of the team, no point to having him in there.

Sometimes I dont mind a bit of celebration to try and rev everyone up. Try and spark the momentum to get a comeback happening. But sadly it did not happen in that game.

 

[martinson]

Reasonably sad that the lasting memory of Mitch that I will have from this year is him celebrating like we'd won the grand final when he kicked his second vs the Dees, then him missing a sitter that would have given us the lead yesterday. Just needs to be out of the team, no point to having him in there.

It's not as if we don't have guys who deserve a chance. Start blooding them now.

I think the Dons game and this game were the two games where it's hurt (me) the most. And Fages post matches ,not that it's any big deal ,rubbing salt into the wound. After doing next to nothing over the course of the games to switch things up a little.

We honestly play like a team that's coming to the end of a successful era with a flag or two under the belt. Our backline looks like ageing warriors , the midfield get burnt off at some point every game. Then McStay going through the motions is a bit grating as well.

We need to start having an in depth realistic review of our list now.

 

[McIvor]

Nope, drafting looks pretty decent to me. Deven, Prior, Tunstill, Wilmot, Lohmann - lot of positives there.

Yet none of them can get a game

 

[martinson]

Yet none of them can get a game

Why we didn't play Prior yesterday ,especially with Starc out is a mystery.

Unless there's something about Prior we don't know in my view that was a monumental blunder.

 

[davemc_lions]

I understand Fagan at Pressers and Fagan behind the doors different.
Also know they have to do a presser.. Although no hard questions and no real answers.

Fagan seems a great communicator although we get beaten tactically and very slow to re act
I know he wants to be down with the team and encourage and talk to them.
Something needs to change in the box.. Bring in someone outside for a few weeks.
There always seems a big delay and doing moves. Bolton was cutting us up even when we 42 points up.
Every week the same if we do something it either too late or close too it.

 

[martinson]

I understand Fagan at Pressers and Fagan behind the doors different.
Also know they have to do a presser.. Although no hard questions and no real answers.

Fagan seems a great communicator although we get beaten tactically and very slow to re act
I know he wants to be down with the team and encourage and talk to them.
Something needs to change in the box.. Bring in someone outside for a few weeks.
There always seems a big delay and doing moves. Bolton was cutting us up even when we 42 points up.
Every week the same if we do something it either too late or close too it.

I've given up trying to work out if we'll ever do anything pro active on game day to stop the opposition.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Yet none of them can get a game

I blame that partly on the coaching staff. Dev and Prior would probably do just as well as Lyons and Robbo have been doing lately, but the coaches are choosing experience over youth.

 

[lioninthesand]

I like your response and agree with the crux of it. I actually think the Fatherly approach is fine - we just need to strike more of a balance.

It was great when we were the youngest list in the comp, we are now one of the older teams in the comp.

I do refute that notion that my assertion that the presser is talking to the players - of coarse it is, whether it’s intended or not. They know what’s said, it sets the tone for the week, it’s the public message you give to their performance.

I can’t remember who is was it might have been Matthews I think who is strong on this - ‘the most

The first bolded is most likely a load of bollocks. I'd be surprised if most of the players even watch the pressers. At times I wonder if the player who sometimes fronts up really takes it in.

The second bolded is the crux of the matter. What you really want is some display that they are hurting as much as you are. I get it to an extent. But their disappointment is a different kind to what we feel. They have control over a situation whereas we don't. Their brains are likely switching to fix-it mode and tearing down players confidences isn't going to achieve what people hope it might. Public bakings do more to erode trust than build it, that for sure.

You're right, the fatherly approach, while beneficial up until now, may prevent him taking the next step as a coach. But everything I hear from comments by players over the years is that the warm fuzzy Fages that we see isn't the one the players get behind closed doors.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is don't mistake what's best for you as a supporter is the same as what's best for the team.

Great post, agree with most of it. We will agree to disagree on the press conferences. There have been coaches talk about over the years, might have even been Matthews, I think Buckley has. IMO - Pressers are a key part of players messaging. IMO - what he puts on record about performance and expectations, to the public after the game, permeates through the group as much as a bake behind closed doors.

And if there is some ‘night and day’ messaging going on, that’s worse. The notion that we have some pre-planned ‘softly softly’ public narrative and then a more brutal in house narrative - I just don’t believe it and hope that’s not the case. Why would he need to do that? To protect egos? Why?

He is always saying ‘that’s what I’ll be telling our boys’ during pressers, it might be 20-30% more honest or focused, but I doubt it goes much beyond that. They never make statements at selection, when would this ruthless coaching be taking place? Leadership meetings for sure I think they would delve deeper, I think the players would explore these topics at times.

I also don’t want him to go in an spit the dummy. I am not some low IQ fan who just wants blood. I think the whole avoidance of discussing ‘what today meant’ and to acknowledge the ‘hurt’ is to further cotton wool the group and expectations around it. I don’t want to be appeased or have players roasted, I want it out on record - ‘42 points up and to blow it, it’s not good enough and we will be X,Y,Z to change it’. What’s wrong with doing that?

I would also like to see the 2 minute, prescripted, statistical break down of how good the oppo are each loss to go to, further cushioning and expectations.

There are also things I love about his pressers.

Never blames the umps, always accepts the result, does a great just of calming the supporters and helping you see the positives, never loses his cool and singles out a player, never makes underhanded comments about to oppo or the AFL, never degrades the media.

He is awesome in many ways, just 4 years into a top 4 journey, I’d occasionally like a bit of heat, a few admissions, a bit more focus on the mental aspects, a bit of ‘we need to better’ and less scripted excuses ready to go.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

He is awesome in many ways, just 4 years into a top 4 journey, I’d occasionally like a bit of heat, a few admissions, a bit more focus on the mental aspects, a bit of ‘we need to better’ and less scripted excuses ready to go.

Good response. Appreciated.

One thing I've always thought about reaction to press conferences... Sometimes there is a reaction to what a coach or athlete says in a presser, but they rarely reference the question that prompted it. I'd love to hear the journos miked up more in AFL pressers. Appreciate it's not always easy with directional mics, staffing, etc.

But sometimes people think a coach or player comes along to a conference with a script or talking points. Some may, but for the most part they're just trying to get out of there saying as little as possible. People have remarked that the journos didn't ask the right questions - if they didn't I'm not putting it on the coach for failing to get riled up. Also, I'd rate Fagan as possibly one of the poorer media performers out of the senior coaches going around. I always get the feeling it's a part of the job he doesn't at all enjoy.

Despite saying that, yes I agree it would be nice to see a little more emotion on occasion. But as soon as that happens coaches get dragged over the coals for not being more professional.

 

[lioninthesand]

Good response. Appreciated.

One thing I've always thought about reaction to press conferences... Sometimes there is a reaction to what a coach or athlete says in a presser, but they rarely reference the question that prompted it. I'd love to hear the journos miked up more in AFL pressers. Appreciate it's not always easy with directional mics, staffing, etc.

But sometimes people think a coach or player comes along to a conference with a script or talking points. Some may, but for the most part they're just trying to get out of there saying as little as possible. People have remarked that the journos didn't ask the right questions - if they didn't I'm not putting it on the coach for failing to get riled up. Also, I'd rate Fagan as possibly one of the poorer media performers out of the senior coaches going around. I always get the feeling it's a part of the job he doesn't at all enjoy.

Despite saying that, yes I agree it would be nice to see a little more emotion on occasion. But as soon as that happens coaches get dragged over the coals for not being more professional.

Yep that’s where I am at, roughly. Even just listening to Voss’s who is by no means the benchmark - however.

He said the loss to the Crows came down to ‘desire’ - ‘we lost ground ball and contested ball’ that indicates we wern’t up for the fight today etc etc.

Then said ‘but we get to work on our game this week’ etc.

It was strong, definitive, action based, no excuses - without singling anyone, trashing the brand, throwing the toys out of the cot.

Fagan would NEVER question the desire or the mental aspects after a game, when it’s clear as day both fluctuate massively within this group.

It struck a nice balance that would maintain culture, not draw any attention from the media - but at the same time says to anyone listening, there a non negotiable as and we push hard for standards.

I think there are some negotiables in our coaching/playing group that have exsisted for sometime.

I think at times we lack that accountable edge (that evolved on the back of player culture and negating the go home factor) and the messaging around that starts at the presser IMO.

But I love Fagan, sometimes I feel like if you question anything with his style you are wanting him sacked, I back him in as our coach - he is just very rusted on to his methods and I would love to see what a freshen up might do for him (aka Chris Scott this year).

 

[Thomasno]

Yep that’s where I am at, roughly. Even just listening to Voss’s who is by no means the benchmark - however.

He said the loss to the Crows came down to ‘desire’ - ‘we lost ground ball and contested ball’ that indicates we wern’t up for the fight today etc etc.

Then said ‘but we get to work on our game this week’ etc.

It was strong, definitive, action based, no excuses - without singling anyone, trashing the brand, throwing the toys out of the cot.

Fagan would NEVER question the desire or the mental aspects after a game, when it’s clear as day both fluctuate massively within this group.

It struck a nice balance that would maintain culture, not draw any attention from the media - but at the same time says to anyone listening, there a non negotiable as and we push hard for standards.

I think there are some negotiables in our coaching/playing group that have exsisted for sometime.

I think at times we lack that accountable edge (that evolved on the back of player culture and negating the go home factor) and the messaging around that starts at the presser IMO.

But I love Fagan, sometimes I feel like if you question anything with his style you are wanting him sacked, I back him in as our coach - he is just very rusted on to his methods and I would love to see what a freshen up might do for him (aka Chris Scott this year).

You were talking about the rumours you were hearing from inside the club RE clarko, right? Out of curiosity, what do you make of Clarko being at our game yesterday when North were playing at the same time across town? Has it impacted your thoughts at all?

 

[davemc_lions]

how many assistants have we turned over since Fagan came.
Pretty sure he kept all Leepa's
We still getting beaten like we did in 2019 out of centre stoppage with no defense and speed around the ground..
So something has to change
Might not be Fagan although an assistant or two

 

[davemc_lions]

You were talking about the rumours you were hearing from inside the club RE clarko, right? Out of curiosity, what do you make of Clarko being at our game yesterday when North were playing at the same time across town? Has it impacted your thoughts at all?

Yes was interesting although if he went to the North game it be reported he taking the job here is a picture to prove.
you think he want to stay away from North games until he decides.

 

[Nathan Barley]

how many assistants have we turned over since Fagan came.
Pretty sure he kept all Leepa's
We still getting beaten like we did in 2019 out of centre stoppage with no defense and speed around the ground..
So something has to change
Might not be Fagan although an assistant or two

In: Stone, Bruce
Out: Daly, Tapping