Coach Fages and the coaching group

[BRAB]

We've really got nothing out of Lyons, Zorko and Rich this year and still won 15 games. Can't see anyone else dropping off massively in just 12-24 months.

I think we’re in a pretty good spot to avoid bottoming out.

I'm not as confident. Bottom out maybe not. But we wont contend for a bit. Think we missed the chance with this squad for now.

That’s a completely different scenario and I might even agree with you there. There’s a huge difference between bottoming out and not contending.

 

[mpal6]

I really don’t think we’ll bottom out though? Still plenty of talent on the list with more to come.

We are going to end up with an age profile gap shortly if we don't play the next group on a consistent basis. If that happens and we lose say Dev, Prior, TBerry, Payne and so on - then the seniors will exit without replacements which will cause a drop for us.

 

[BRAB]

We are going to end up with an age profile gap shortly if we don't play the next group on a consistent basis. If that happens and we lose say Dev, Prior, TBerry, Payne and so on - then the seniors will exit without replacements which will cause a drop for us.

I agree if we lost those players in a particular age group we’d probably have an age gap in that group. In the event that we have a player exodus yeah unfortunately that means we drop down.

 

[janty]

I think we should have a quiet chat to Longmire - contract up at end of 2023. He has the ability to get the best out of teams, team oriented, makes tough calls and doesn’t take any crap.

These type of posts are why I come to Big Footy. The real pie in the sky stuff. Why the hell would Longmire leave the Swans for us?

 

[JoeDanihersMoustache]

Sack cam Bruce

 

[martinson]

I think we’re in a pretty good spot to avoid bottoming out.



That’s a completely different scenario and I might even agree with you there. There’s a huge difference between bottoming out and not contending.

The issue is our older players have deteriorated quicker than we imagined , Lyons ,Zorko ,Rich ,throw McCarthy in with those , the young ones that we were sure were going to be guns generally aren't even going as well as they were when they were just very promising ,Bailey ,Andrews, Berry ,Hipwood , McStay , to a lesser extent Rayner and McCluggage but a least they're playing at a reasonable enough high level. Adams can't get on the park fit and well enough for long enough. Daniher is busted up and needs reco. surgery. Charlie is too easily shut down in big games.

The only players you could say have demonstrably improved are Starcevich and Ah Chee. And perhaps Oscar ,but he's no gun at this point.

So basically we were a very promising team where most of the players haven't delivered what we hoped. And they're stale on the game plan which needs a total reassessment.

 

[BRAB]

The issue is our older players have deteriorated quicker than we imagined , Lyons ,Zorko ,Rich ,throw McCarthy in with those , the young ones that we were sure were going to be guns generally aren't even going as well as they were when they were just very promising ,Bailey ,Andrews, Berry ,Hipwood , McStay , to a lesser extent Rayner and McCluggage but a least they're playing at a reasonable enough high level. Adams can't get on the park fit and well enough for long enough. Daniher is busted up and needs reco. surgery. Charlie is too easily shut down in big games.

The only players you could say have demonstrably improved are Starcevich and Ah Chee. And perhaps Oscar ,but he's no gun at this point.

So basically we were a very promising team where most of the players haven't delivered what we hoped. And they're stale on the game plan which needs a total reassessment.

I think most of those players that you have mentioned as players that aren’t “guns” have still contributed to us winning 15 games this season though. I don’t think losing Lyons, Zorko, Rich and McCarthy is going to turn us from a top 6 team into a bottom 4 team, which is what bottoming out suggests.

Even if those players don’t get any better I still think we’re a competitive team.

 

[knaf]

No need to throw the baby out with the bath water. **** has done a good job building a competitive team, but obviously not a Premeirship contending team. We have a talented list, but on game day we are getting less than the sum of all the parts. I’m guessing that we have too many icing on the cake players but not enough cake.

Hopefully the club is putting in place a plan for a complete review of the football department. Look at overall philosophy, approach to building the team, including motivation, tactics, structures and game plan; selection approach and game day operations within the coaching group. Then make some hard decisions on changes in the football department and then with the list.

I would prefer that we take a high risk/ high reward trading approach to at least one player than be served up that stuff from last night for a couple more years.

 

[martinson]

I think most of those players that you have mentioned as players that aren’t “guns” have still contributed to us winning 15 games this season though. I don’t think losing Lyons, Zorko, Rich and McCarthy is going to turn us from a top 6 team into a bottom 4 team, which is what bottoming out suggests.

Even if those players don’t get any better I still think we’re a competitive team.

I'm confident we'll be competitive if we're realistic and do something about our circumstances. I'm just giving the reasons why we're not contending for flags as we would've hoped a couple of years ago.

 

[BRAB]

I'm confident we'll be competitive if we're realistic and do something about our circumstances. I'm just giving the reasons why we're not contending for flags as we would've hoped a couple of years ago.

Respectfully you need to follow the flow of a conversation a bit better then. The conversation started because somebody said we’d bottom out.

If you’re suggesting we won’t be contending because of the reasons you listed above then I completely agree with you.

 

[mpal6]

I think most of those players that you have mentioned as players that aren’t “guns” have still contributed to us winning 15 games this season though. I don’t think losing Lyons, Zorko, Rich and McCarthy is going to turn us from a top 6 team into a bottom 4 team, which is what bottoming out suggests.

Even if those players don’t get any better I still think we’re a competitive team.

We always look good against bottom 10 teams. 20-30% of full throttle effort along with some individual brilliance sort of wins the day. Everyone pats each other in the back and move on.

When it comes to top 8, then the level of consistency needed goes up higher without saying. Top 4, even higher. Top 2, you can't make mistakes and you need 4 quarter effort. Individual brilliance gets snuffed out quickly and the only way to win is hard yakka, planning and actually sit down to counter plan against what they're trying to do to us. I don't think we are good at this front at all.

Was listening to Ash Barty in a radio interview - she mentioned my coach and I sit down and discuss a new player for 15 to 30 minutes. How she plays, strengths, weakness, how can I exploit her game, what can I do to her, what will she try and do to me etc. And then we are set. My coach does all the hard work preparing for it so the review is a breeze.

Contrast that to Zorko's presso earlier this week - "we were focusing too much on the other team, that's not our way. We have moved back to focusing on ourselves which is the way we prepare and play". While this is a singular quote, It clearly shines some insight into how we prepare and do things between our 4 walls. I've heard this before as well, "focus on us and let them worry about us". If this is fundamental to how we prepare, then we need to re-assess in a big way. This is never going to work against the top end of the ladder.

After the game, Melbourne players and coach repeatedly said how Lions are the best first quarter team and how well we start in Gabba. It was a clear focus area for them to come and do a fast start, to put us on the backfoot, knock the wind out of our sails and they were very pleased with the result. Clearly they are all preparing very well against us and how to hurt us or take our strengths away. The interesting thing was, the interviews were all separate - Goodwin, Gawn, May etc - but every single one of them said the same thing. It's as if the message was rammed into their heads so clearly so the group as a whole was pushing hard to get the first quarter advantage nullified.

 

[martinson]

Respectfully you need to follow the flow of a conversation a bit better then. The conversation started because somebody said we’d bottom out.

If you’re suggesting we won’t be contending because of the reasons you listed above then I completely agree with you.

Oh right.

Well there's no need to bottom out . But we do need a clean out ,put more work into younger players who have promise and get to the bottom of why our supposedly good players aren't performing as they can and try to raise their level.

All of that needs recognition of the problems and the will to totally reassess how we're going about it. I'm not convinced that line of thinking is within the brains trust of anything I've seen and heard.

 

[BRAB]

Oh right.

Well there's no need to bottom out . But we do need a clean out ,put more work into younger players who have promise and get to the bottom of why our supposedly good players aren't performing as they can and try to raise their level.

All of that needs recognition of the problems and the will to totally reassess how we're going about it. I'm not convinced that line of thinking is within the brains trust of anything I've seen and heard.

I definitely think everyone at the club needs to sit down and have a bit of a review about where things have gone wrong and where we need to improve to keep pushing the list. I am a little concerned too about our willingness to change things up.

If we still line up next year with Lyons in the best 22 I think that is a mistake.

 

[Tom14]

We always look good against bottom 10 teams. 20-30% of full throttle effort along with some individual brilliance sort of wins the day. Everyone pats each other in the back and move on.

When it comes to top 8, then the level of consistency needed goes up higher without saying. Top 4, even higher. Top 2, you can't make mistakes and you need 4 quarter effort. Individual brilliance gets snuffed out quickly and the only way to win is hard yakka, planning and actually sit down to counter plan against what they're trying to do to us. I don't think we are good at this front at all.

Was listening to Ash Barty in a radio interview - she mentioned my coach and I sit down and discuss a new player for 15 to 30 minutes. How she plays, strengths, weakness, how can I exploit her game, what can I do to her, what will she try and do to me etc. And then we are set. My coach does all the hard work preparing for it so the review is a breeze.

Contrast that to Zorko's presso earlier this week - "we were focusing too much on the other team, that's not our way. We have moved back to focusing on ourselves which is the way we prepare and play". While this is a singular quote, It clearly shines some insight into how we prepare and do things between our 4 walls. I've heard this before as well, "focus on us and let them worry about us". If this is fundamental to how we prepare, then we need to re-assess in a big way. This is never going to work against the top end of the ladder.

After the game, Melbourne players and coach repeatedly said how Lions are the best first quarter team and how well we start in Gabba. It was a clear focus area for them to come and do a fast start, to put us on the backfoot, knock the wind out of our sails and they were very pleased with the result. Clearly they are all preparing very well against us and how to hurt us or take our strengths away. The interesting thing was, the interviews were all separate - Goodwin, Gawn, May etc - but every single one of them said the same thing. It's as if the message was rammed into their heads so clearly so the group as a whole was pushing hard to get the first quarter advantage nullified.

I'm sure this is true but fundamentally they just have better players than us, are fitter and have better structure. This is a core thing they can fall back on. They didn't have to change the way they played against us because of those advantages, and because they probably have 3 of the best 5 players in the comp. They didn't even bother tagging Neale last night.

The focus on a lack of a plan B or opposition plan can be a fair enough criticism, but the fundamental issue is the cattle. We don't have the capacity to play a fast running bounce handball game on offence, which is what has worked against the Dees. Our defenders aren't good enough and can't be trusted to do simple things like defend the front of a marking pack where they feasted all night.

 

[mpal6]

I'm sure this is true but fundamentally they just have better players than us, are fitter and have better structure. This is a core thing they can fall back on. They didn't have to change the way they played against us because of those advantages, and because they probably have 3 of the best 5 players in the comp. They didn't even bother tagging Neale last night.

The focus on a lack of a plan B or opposition plan can be a fair enough criticism, but the fundamental issue is the cattle. We don't have the capacity to play a fast running bounce handball game on offence, which is what has worked against the Dees. Our defenders aren't good enough and can't be trusted to do simple things like defend the front of a marking pack where they feasted all night.

My biggest problem with the bolded bit is we didn't emphasize on this aspect all season and blood the right players along the way to see if we can tweak our style. We stuck to our guns in terms of slow play from back and rely on a fast break through the corridor or kick high ball to the wing in a contest and hope it comes to ground for us to run it.

When Rich or Coleman went down, we chose to dabble with Nakia in defense. Granted he looked explosive on occasions against bottom teams - but we could've put Madden or say Wilmot in there. We did not proactively make any moves to even try and see what that run n carry would've looked against even the bottom teams. Rinse n repeat the same structure, got a win by 20-30, bag the win and move on. I feel it gave the team a false dawn confidence and the Coach as well as even supporters like us kept believing its all going to click eventually.

 

[martinson]

I'm sure this is true but fundamentally they just have better players than us, are fitter and have better structure. This is a core thing they can fall back on. They didn't have to change the way they played against us because of those advantages, and because they probably have 3 of the best 5 players in the comp. They didn't even bother tagging Neale last night.

The focus on a lack of a plan B or opposition plan can be a fair enough criticism, but the fundamental issue is the cattle. We don't have the capacity to play a fast running bounce handball game on offence, which is what has worked against the Dees. Our defenders aren't good enough and can't be trusted to do simple things like defend the front of a marking pack where they feasted all night.

It's been evident that we're nowhere near as good as they are every time we've played them.

We're not going as well now as we were when they belted us in 2021.

There's been an overestimation of what some of our players are capable of .

Nonetheless we haven't made too good a fist of it with what we have ,especially last night.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Zorko, Lyons, Rich, and Gardiner. I'd move the four of them on at the end of the season. Harsh, but we're as experienced as Melbourne tonight - this is the peak from this particular build (and particularly those players).

I realise he is much-loved, but I don't think Mathieson is a best 22 player going forward either. So there would be at least five changes for round 1 2023. I'd bring in Ashcroft, Ah Chee, Adams, Robertson (if he sticks around) and try to trade somebody else in as well for that group.

Think we'd be younger, faster, and have a new look to us.

I don't disagree with you, but who are the ones continually selecting them every week? Fagan and his staff.

 

[briztoon]

About a week ago, Mighty Lions said that the assistant coaches (didn’t give specific names) have suggested changes to Fagan, which weren’t listened to.

No idea what those changes were.

My concern is that Danny Daly was once an assistant coach under Fagan, before moving in to Noble’s old position. Does he have the strength of personality to over rule Fagan, and make the changes he perceives are needed.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Why blame the coaches! The players are soft. Opposition teams up the top do not fear us as a matter of fact laugh at us. Is that the coaches fault? No way.

At least in part, it is. The coaching staff continually pick these players and haven't inspired them to have a tougher mentality. Now of course there are some players who will never have that mentality no matter who coaches them, but I find it hard to believe we have a team full of those types. If we actually do, then all our recruiting staff need to be sacked for bringing in so many uncoachable players.

 

[davemc_lions]

Sydney are flying and they've rebuilt pretty quickly. Game style tweaked with lot of speed and good kicking added in rebound like Blakey, Gulden, Warner etc. One of their supposed weakness is in the middle which is being addressed with Mills moved there from defense (cough cough Starce.. c'mon Fagan)

Why would he leave and come to us anyway ?

The Starc thing is interesting
We cannot move him as he so good in that spot.
Although we took a should been AA on the wing and pushed him in the middle.

 

[RoyBoy17]

Assistant coaches need to be moved on. All of them. Then give fagan one more year. If no improvement then throw money at horse

 

[McIvor]

Just watched Fages presser, not much different than I expected, he never criticises individual players BUT his highlighting of us "winning" the 2nd half and how good some of the stats were was a little cringeworthy considering the performance.

The 2nd half was meaningless IMO, the Demons were in cruise control, the whole 2nd half was junk time goals for us, Demons could have flicked the switch at anytime, I said to my son in the last quarter the Demons are taking the piss/toying with us.

Just watch how the game unfolded and it was clear to see the Demons are on another level to us.

I'm fine with not being as good as Melbourne, but a lot poorer sides than us have put up better efforts against them or beaten them that we can muster that we just have no resilience whatsoever. There is clearly something with this group pychologically that it wilts to certain teams or is intimidated, scared but something particulalry against Richmond, except one final and now against Melbourne. I mean Carlton beat them, Port played well against them, even the Crows but we are just abhorrent against them and now with this Zorko drama, they'l come out and destroy us next time we play them. Its quite sad.

 

[mpal6]

I'd enquire if Josh Kennedy from Sydney would like to join us as an assistant next year. He's from a good system, knows how Horse coaches their group and could bring some different ideas to table.

 

[M Malice]

If we can't entice Luke Hodge and if the Cats win the flag I think Joel Selwood will retire on a high, if he is looking at getting into coaching we should go hard for him as an assistant ... ultra professional high achiever.

Former Lion coaching at the Cats now Nigel Lappin would be a fantastic get as well.

 

[Saucery]

I have no idea about the spit balling of names around here for different roles, but I would like to see an external review after this seasons end; before we need one.

We've pretty much had the same football department people for a long while now and whilst loyalty is admirable it can also lead to stagnation. Many of our football department were taken care of during the pandemic to the clubs eternal credit but we need to get some clear eyes on our evolution.

What Swan, Noble and Fagan have done with our family is nothing short of amazing, well one thing short of amazing; a flag. I wouldn't mind seeing Noble being part of the review but others might disagree. Maybe Noble was for Fagan what Balme was for Hardwick. Maybe we need a new reporting structure, freshen up of faces with new messages.

I think we do need change, we look stale and predictable. Most players of other sides will have had the same briefing on us for the last few years, we are a known quantity. As Lethal said "It's ok to be predictable as long as you can beat anyone else doing so".

Call it an internal review with a few outsiders, call it a regular review at years end (but include a few outsiders), call it a take out order for all I care. They don't have to be AFL people but someone who has been involved in successful reviews of elite sporting organisations would tick my boxes.