First 22 in 2023

M Malice · Oct 13, 2022

Mighty Lions said:
I really hope Lachie leads our team out next year. Time for Zorko to step down.

100%, IMO we should manage the amount of games Zorko and Rich play during the H&A season much like the Cats did with Dangerfield and Selwood this year.

Although if we put more of an emphasis on gut defensive run(which we need to) in 2023 I wouldn't be surprised if Richy is phased out of our best 22 much like Jarryd Lyons.

On that while the offence of our forward line has been very good as a group they need to improve the consistency of their defensive game both within games and over the course of the season.

Squizz89 · Oct 13, 2022

FWIW Zorko said after the season he’d put his hand up again and let the players decide. If his spot in the team is no longer guaranteed you’d hope wiser heads prevail and he passes it on.

Personally I think Lachie should probably get it but I have also warmed to McCluggage and he seemed to present more in the media this year. I wouldn’t go for Harris. Just let him try and get back to his pre 21/22 form without the pressure of captaincy.

Mighty Lions · Oct 13, 2022

M Malice said:
100%, IMO we should manage the amount of games Zorko and Rich play during the H&A season much like the Cats did with Dangerfield and Selwood this year.

Although if we put more of an emphasis on gut defensive run(which we need to) in 2023 I wouldn't be surprised if Richy is phased out of our best 22 much like Jarryd Lyons.

On that while the offence of our forward line has been very good as a group they need to improve the consistency of their defensive game both within games and over the course of the season.

I've said many times lately, Bam Bam gets in a full pre-season and he will be back to his very best (like 2021). If he cant get in a full pre-season (like this year) I would not be surprised to see him announce his retirement before the season starts.

Agree our forward line needs to add more defensive pressure. When you look at the quality of our forward entries (below average), our forward line did a remarkable job to score the way they did. Cameron's pressure was much better in the 2nd half of the year but was ordinary before then. A more consistent effort from everyone will make us the most dangerous forward line in the competition I believe.

RoyBoy17 · Oct 13, 2022

Whatever the starting 22 I would love for us to be brutal at selection next year.

We have the luxury with our depth to drop one or two if needed.

Hopefully if players are becoming a liability defensively then we make moves earlier.

Rich is one that the opposition play through a lot (Birchall prior to that) so hopefully his attacking game outweighs this but he definitely needs to be as fit as possible next year.

Mighty Lions · Oct 13, 2022

Squizz89 said:
FWIW Zorko said after the season he’d put his hand up again and let the players decide. If his spot in the team is no longer guaranteed you’d hope wiser heads prevail and he passes it on.

Personally I think Lachie should probably get it but I have also warmed to McCluggage and he seemed to present more in the media this year. I wouldn’t go for Harris. Just let him try and get back to his pre 21/22 form without the pressure of captaincy.

Harris would be a good option to Lachie in my opinion providing he also is fit. The critisism he has copped from some on here has been a bit rough.

nup · Oct 13, 2022

I also like Andrews for a possible captain. Some of those big moments where he punches the spoil into the 25th row are the type of inspiration we need to regroup. Mccluggage just cool under pressure hitting right options even if Lachie getting tagged out my second preference. It's time for Zorko to pass it on imo too

morsie · Oct 13, 2022

I have seen nothing about Adams and his concussion issues.Is there any update?

Nuggo · Oct 13, 2022

What is the Captain's role at the Lions:

On Field:
Leading by example ie effort, sticking to non negotiables, executing game plan/set plays
Clutch performances
Control pressure situations
Be accountable for poor performance
Mentoring younger players
Voice for the coach on the field
Respect of the players
Be able to direct players
Be able to get the best out of the players ie effort, sticking to non negotiables, executing game plan/set plays

Off Field:
Be able to get players to train to the required level - leading by example
Help provide right environment outside of footy
Supporting players in such a way that you are putting them first
Feedback and relationships with Coaches
Sponsor relationships
Media interaction
Fanbase relationships

There are probably more but being able to interact and connect with people is critical. Supporting and leading by example on and off the field. Being there to help players take steps to become better players and better people. Helping and executing a set of do's and do not's that define and create the culture required for success. Giving way more than taking.

Hard to find a person that can tick all of those boxes. Also hard to gauge whom will be best to do the Captains role as most time we only see the on field, yet it is what happens off the field is where a Captain can be just as influential.

dlanod · Oct 13, 2022

morsie said:
I have seen nothing about Adams and his concussion issues.Is there any update?

Doubt there will be anything public until the start of preseason given he'd be away from the club now.

Sproj · Oct 13, 2022

I think something like this:

B: Gardner Andrews Rich (Wilmott when Rich is rested)
HB: Coleman Adams/Payne (for when Adams is injured) Starcevich
C: Berry Dunkley McCluggage
HF: Bailey Hipwood Rayner
F: Gunston Daniher Cameron

R: McInerney Zorko (Lohmann) when Zorko is rested) Neale
I: Robertson Wilmot (Prior I guess when Rich is rested) McCarthy (Lohmann potentially to take over some way through the season is McCarthy doesn't lift) Ashcroft Fort

McIvor · Oct 13, 2022

My old man is pretty old school and he said to me this morning that the Lions finally have a proper ruck-rover (Dunkley) and rover (Neale) combo. Further he said that he hopes when he reads the team sheets that our rucks line is listen in this order - McInerney, Dunkley, Neale.

No doubt all irrelevant, but thats how he rolls lol

StevoJenkins · Oct 13, 2022

StevoJenkins said:
I'll have a crack at this:

FB: Payne, Adams, Andrews/Dizzy
HB: Kiddy, Rich, Wilmott
C: Bags, Starceivich, Berry
HF: Linc, Bailey, Daniher
FF: Oscar, Cameron, Hippy
CB: Fort, Neale, Dev/Matho/trade target

I/C: Ah Chee, Ashcroft, Mathieson/Prior, Rayner

Reasoning:
I like Payne when he plays in the back. He's got speed and can actually kick the ball, but isn't as physical as others. Hence why Adams stays in the team because he is tough and can blanket a key forward.

I've put Andrews/Dizzy here because I don't think we can realistically play both of these guys in the same backline. Andrews needs a solid preseason to be able to play in my books. Even if he needs time during the season, let him take some time off and rebuild his body. Dizzy plays in this case, but Payne takes his spot moving forward as Payne seems to make mistakes out of inexperience, whereas Dizzy just makes mistakes.

Kiddy and Rich play in the same area of the ground. Rich passes to Kiddy and Kiddy gets us through the corridor. Pretty simple plan. Wilmott gets added as a another option in the stead of Kiddy/Rich.

Bags gets put on his natural position - the wing, Starce gets put into the midfield to act as a big body mid/a penetrating kick and Berry plays on the other wing as he can run for days.

Half forward is made up of guys who can run up and get the ball. Linc gets put in there, same as Bailey, enabling Daniher to kick those 50 metre run-on goals he can seem to kick better than a set shot.

Oscar plays in full forward, as he gets the best defender and can just clunk marks because of his height. I much prefer him as a forward/ruck than a ruck/forward. Hippy plays there as well due to Daniher playing at half forward, unless he can get back some of his running in the preseason. Cameron plays there as well to get the crumbs off of Hippy and Oscar.

At the centre bounce, Fort plays as the full time ruck. He's tap work is not as good as Oscar, but he is more mobile than the big O, which is why he will play there and swap with Oscar as needed. Neale plays there because he is amazing as always.

Final spot in the starting 18 is up for debate. I do not rate Lyons and, as a result, I have taken him out of the team. Watching him both live and on the TV, I've seen his deficiencies wildly apparent. Given the recent news that we rate Dev (and he seems to like it here, just doesn't like the lack of opportunities I've been told), you play him in his preferred position of at least the first 8 or so rounds of the season and see how he goes with an extended run, rather than his lacklustre runs so far.

If we get a trade target (won't be Dunkley) and/or Dev doesn't work out, you put Matheison in there until next trade period and try again to get a person for that position, or play Ashcroft. Ashcroft could sit in this position by season's end, but I'm going off this seasons form to make this 22, so Dev or Matho - pick your poison.

Ah Chee starts on the bench, as he has become the ultimate utility player, Ashcroft starts in the side but as a rotating wing, Matheison plays as I like his grunt and with Robbo retiring at the end of this season we need someone with real grunt in the team. Prior can also be chucked in here as he showed enough for me this season and can play back, wing or forward.

Final spot is Rayner. Still not sold on him being in the starting midfield. I see him at this point being a guy you put in there on rotation in the mid/forward line to mix around the matchups. If he improves he can start in there, but once again I'm going off this season's form for this.

Med sub would be either Lester, Cockatoo (if he is not on the bench), Cox, Prior (depending on previous choices) or Madden. I don't really have a preference, but I would go Madden. Having a player of his speed would be good in the 2nd or 3rd quarter when players are spent or are avoiding sprints.

Edit:
Answorth replaces Wilmott if Wilmott is not ready yet.

Revised best 22 after the trade period (because I'm bored at work):

FB: Payne, Kiddy, Andrews
HB: Starceivich, Dizzy, Wilmott
C: Bags, Rayner, Berry
HF: Linc, Bailey, Daniher
FF: Gunston, Cameron, Hippy
CB: Oscar, Neale, Dunkley

I/C: Ah Chee/Lohmann, Ashcroft/Dev, Prior, Rich, Fort
Medisub: Mathieson/Answorth
Built with the assumption that the five-man bench comes into play

I've taken Adams out of the side, as I don't think he stays in the team with the emergence of Payne with his form in the final's series. I'm also under the impression that Adams may retire due to injury concerns. It was telling that he didn't come back from injury in finals. As I've said before, Payne is faster, he is a better kick, and he can play tall and small. Payne just needs a good run of games. He is the future, Adams is teh past.

Kiddy gets moved to full back in the usual Rich spot, as Rich has been moved to the bench. Kiddy/Rich kicks to Wilmot or Starceivich, the ball is then kicked into the midfield with quality ball use. Can't complain about that. Kiddy can also take an intercept mark, which is nice to have.

Andrews is now in full back, changed from when I had him and Gardiner switching out depending on his and Dizzy's form. Andrews quietly got better as the year went on this season, as he finally found that he wasn't the only man in defence anymore, as he had been for years. He can now play man on man instead of roaming and playing man on man.

Starceivich plays in the backline with the addition of Dunkley in the team, as he can shut down smalls and is an above average kick. He was originally in the midfield for me.

Dizzy plays at half back, because he can blanket anyone. I would normally play Answorth here, but the fact that Dizzy resigned means that he is going to play best 22 football, at least at the beginning of the season. I expect Dizzy to be taken out of the team by Answorth or Madden by the season's end.

Wilmott play because of speed and ball use. He also isn't afraid to take a risk, which the rest of the team seems to have lost that risk sense. Nothing more to say here.

The midfield is a bit tight, and positions are a bit weird. I've put Bags and Berry on the wings. Berry is one hell of a runner and Bags's ball use is perfect on the wing. I don't know why Bags is playing inside, but with Dunkley coming in, Bags gets put in what seems to be his natural position. Berry and Bags can be rotated through the inside if need be (Berry gets played as the tagging role as well if need be).

Rayner plays was the fourth inside mid. He gets the ball and runs through to half forward. He stepped up this year, which is pretty neat since he is coming back from a knee reco.

At centre bounce you have Oscar in the ruck. He's been moved up the ground because Gunston is in the team, as I had Oscar in the forward line. Now he could get played as the resting ruck/the McStay role, but he is clearly our main ruck moving forward. His tap work is better than Fort's.

Neale and Dunkley get played in the middle. Neale is fantastic, Dunkley provides support. Dunkley was brought to the club to support Neale, this is what he'll be doing.

At half forward I've got Linc and Bailey still. You're essentially playing two guys who can play midfield and link up (no pun intended) with the midfield. Linc is under pressure this season with Lohmann fighting for that spot. Linc either steps up or is replaced. Bailey will rotate through the midfield as per need. Can't complain about Bailey and his form. Stepped up this season despite some quiet games.

Daniher plays half forward as well, because he essentially plays as a half forward. Slow ball movement at times this season and an injury meant he couldn't play like he did last year. Hopefully he can get back to that level this preseason, as having a forward who can kick on the run from outside 50 is pretty good. He may occasionally play ruck as McStay did. Hopefully he doesn't get injured again from the ruck.

Full forward started with Gunston. The guy can kick goals from just about anywhere. Kick the ball to him at the tricky angles and his boot will do the rest.

Cameron plays here, as he (at times) seems to be the only forward we have putting pressure on the opposition. He'll keep playing the way he is for another 4ish years, then reassess.

Hippy plays at full forward because he, like Rayner, took a step forward after a knee reco. He could play the McStay role in the form of replacing McStay's contested work, as he did during the final's series. He will only get better with a full preseason under his belt one would imagine.

Now the bench/Medisub is a bit complicated.
Zorko and Rich will be managed next season. This is a given, but moreso Zorko than Rich. Rich still has at least two years of solid football left, whereas Zorko's calf injuries won't be going away. Since I can't foresee what happens with Zorko, I've put Rich on the bench for the back rotation.

Ashcroft plays from the very first game. Most likely scenario is that he starts on the wing, then may get moved to the inside if he goes along well. Could also be part of the half forward rotation, but we'll see. That being said, you can plop Dev in for an inside rotation and play Ashcroft work on team synergy in the twos. Dev was very good in the finals series as well, so I'd expect him to be on the bench in some capacity. He will play for the Rayner position and could be put in the middle when Rayner is taken off or plays forward.

Prior can play just about anywhere but will slot in the wing rotation as well. He got a bit of flack this year from members of this forum, but always gave 100% and the fact he got signed rather than traded for picks points to how valued he is by the coaches. Could be replaced here by Dev as well, but I like players who can play multiple positions on the bench, so he plays here.

The last slot on the bench with the current rules is split between Ah Chee and Lohmann as the forward rotation. Ah Chee can play anywhere, which I like. His forward pressure is great and he can play the wing role as well. He has the ability to play back as well, but with Wilmott and Kiddy there, he doesn't need to be there. Lohmann on the other hand adds speed to the team. He will play midfield or forward. Provides a lot of pressure, which is what you want. Very hard choice between the two.

The fifth spot on the bench is Fort. This would only be if the rumoured rule changes are put into place. Fort is an extra midfielder and can play forward. He'd be your choice for a fifth every day of the week.

Medisub is Mathieson or Answorth.
I prefer Answorth, as he has a better chance of playing in the firsts than Mathieson, but Mathieson did push us to the final's series this year, so I don't know which I would pick.

esbulldogs · Oct 13, 2022

McIvor said:
My old man is pretty old school and he said to me this morning that the Lions finally have a proper ruck-rover (Dunkley) and rover (Neale) combo. Further he said that he hopes when he reads the team sheets that our rucks line is listen in this order - McInerney, Dunkley, Neale.

No doubt all irrelevant, but thats how he rolls lol

Smart old man.

esbulldogs · Oct 13, 2022

Nuggo said:
What is the Captain's role at the Lions:

On Field:
Leading by example ie effort, sticking to non negotiables, executing game plan/set plays
Clutch performances
Control pressure situations
Be accountable for poor performance
Mentoring younger players
Voice for the coach on the field
Respect of the players
Be able to direct players
Be able to get the best out of the players ie effort, sticking to non negotiables, executing game plan/set plays

Off Field:
Be able to get players to train to the required level - leading by example
Help provide right environment outside of footy
Supporting players in such a way that you are putting them first
Feedback and relationships with Coaches
Sponsor relationships
Media interaction
Fanbase relationships

There are probably more but being able to interact and connect with people is critical. Supporting and leading by example on and off the field. Being there to help players take steps to become better players and better people. Helping and executing a set of do's and do not's that define and create the culture required for success. Giving way more than taking.

Hard to find a person that can tick all of those boxes. Also hard to gauge whom will be best to do the Captains role as most time we only see the on field, yet it is what happens off the field is where a Captain can be just as influential.

Great post. Best players do not necessarily make best captain, look at dogs!
I suspect that post pre season Josh impact will leave BF viewers pleasantly surprised, players and coaches alike.

M Malice · Oct 13, 2022

esbulldogs said:
Smart old man.

Hello Mr McIvor Snr.

Mr Ripper · Oct 13, 2022

McIvor said:
My old man is pretty old school and he said to me this morning that the Lions finally have a proper ruck-rover (Dunkley) and rover (Neale) combo. Further he said that he hopes when he reads the team sheets that our rucks line is listen in this order - McInerney, Dunkley, Neale.

No doubt all irrelevant, but thats how he rolls lol

Father knows best.

I reckon dad would also be keen on dumping "leadership groups" and having one captain, one vice captain and one deputy vice captain. Am I right?

Mighty Lions · Oct 13, 2022

Lazza16 said:
Noble on trade chat said Starc will never play midfield.

I dis agree with Nobes on this one. I think Starc has a good chance of being switched into the midfield providing Wilmot or someone else can step up and give our coach the opportunity to experiment with Brandon.

morsie · Oct 13, 2022

esbulldogs said:
Smart old man.

Not that "old" when I started watching most teams played 4 rucks.

dlanod · Oct 13, 2022

Mr Ripper said:
Father knows best.

I reckon dad would also be keen on dumping "leadership groups" and having one captain, one vice captain and one deputy vice captain. Am I right?

Look at Mr New-fangled Ideas here!

Mr Ripper · Oct 13, 2022

dlanod said:
Look at Mr New-fangled Ideas here!

I'll have you know I was d-v-c of my primary school team. Had you achieved such a lofty status in anything by the time you were 14, dlanod?

dlanod · Oct 13, 2022

Mr Ripper said:
I'll have you know I was d-v-c of my primary school team. Had you achieved such a lofty status in anything by the time you were 14, dlanod?

I had already been captain of both my tennis singles team and golf!

notliondown · Oct 13, 2022

For me there are 3 players under real pressure next year. And I hate singling out players but I guess this is now where we are as a club...

McCarthy is the first and by a margin. He plays a difficult role but he just goes missing too much. He spends way too much time being last to the pack and then standing there waving his arms at the umpire while the ball scoots straight past him. And the odd goal is not enough. We are at a point where we can't just keeping carrying players if we expect to win premierships. Being opportunistic is fine but you need to contribute both ways all the time.

Rich is next. And, even given everything that's been said about injury, having a potent left leg shouldn't be enough to guarantee a game. Again we are a point in our development where multifaceted players who can not only use their "weapon" but contribute defensively and gut run have to either be given games or developed. I love Richy, and his loyalty. But we have to be ruthless. And Coleman and Wilmont have probably got more ability to open up a game with far quicker decision making.

The last is Adams. For the first part of the season he was incredible. The last was the polar opposite. Not sure where it was injury, mental or both. At his best he's a game saver. But he looked badly down for the last part of the season and he needs to be able turn that around. I don't have a lot of faith in Payne but if Marcus can't find form he's in trouble.

There were other obvious ones like Lyons etc, but I guess I think we've reached a point where rinse and repeat with the same team and style won't cut it anymore. The midfield will get a shake up - that's inevitable.

To win a premiership we need to reduce the gap between our best and worst. We need players who can find a way to contribute even when their form isn't great.

I don't believe in running weekly changes but getting a game should become harder than it has been in the past.

McIvor · Oct 13, 2022

M Malice said:
Hello Mr McIvor Snr.

I'd be staggered if it was him given his inability to use tehnology. What is odd tho is that Bulldogs poster only has 2 posts - both in this thread LOL. Maybe the old man is moonlighting

McIvor · Oct 13, 2022

Mr Ripper said:
Father knows best.

I reckon dad would also be keen on dumping "leadership groups" and having one captain, one vice captain and one deputy vice captain. Am I right?

Absolutely - none of this new age stuff for him where half the list are leaders with extended captains, VC's and DVC's.

HE's pretty easy to rile up when you go against the old norms of footy 'back in his day' going to Roys matches and later Bears matches when he brought us up north as kids. He still bangs on about some ruckman for Fitzroy wearing gridion pants or something with pads when talking about the lack of body contact b/w ruckmen.

Cubs2Lions · Oct 13, 2022

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