Coach Future of the club (Bevo, board, assistant coaches, football department)

[geoffjennings79]

I am not the University expert but what I have heard is that Victorian University is not one of the highest ranking universities in Australia and targets area like health and trade

Ranking is general, across the organisation, you need to drill down to specific programs and courses.
(Also Australian universities claim high rankings - but drill down and you'll find they are not for the same thing - #1 for graduates finding employment is different to #1 for student satisfaction, but the 2 unis that claim those both say they are ranked #1 - which is technically correct, but also misleading, as you're not comparing apples with apples.)

VU have a lot of expertise in this area, and one of our former players - Professor Michael McKenna is a leader in his field internationally.

Michael McKenna

Learn more about Professor Michael McKenna, who is the Professorial Research Fellow (Muscle and Exercise Physiology) at Victoria University.

www.vu.edu.au

 

[geoffjennings79]

Sorry jdz101 just saw you'd posted something similar to me re VU.

 

[Freshwater]

Not to say we can’t get benefits from what they have, I just don’t think they’re at the cutting edge. In many ways they can’t really be, they are big institutions that have to do research over time. Where as many professional football clubs hire people like Emma Murray

Can definitely say this is incorrect.

One of my best mates is a Dr of Sports Science and a lecturer at VU and he is one of the smartest people I know of in this area.

He has worked with and been taught by Darren Burgess before and worked with the AFL draft combine kids during Bontempelli's draft year. (where he had a hand in taking Bont from being a complete noodle to being in the top tier of bench press strength in a very short time)

I can't comment on Inness but I know VU is not lacking in the talent area as far as sport science goes.

something obviously not working

 

[geoffjennings79]

Not to say we can’t get benefits from what they have, I just don’t think they’re at the cutting edge. In many ways they can’t really be, they are big institutions that have to do research over time. Where as many professional football clubs hire people like Emma Murray

something obviously not working

I'd be surprised if VU are not at the cutting edge. Some of their work in physiology and muscle movement has featured in the past 12 months on local and international stories.
Emma Murray is a hypnotherapist and mindfulness practitioner - VU's research and academic services in sports science are physical, completely different.

 

[jdz101]

Sorry jdz101 just saw you'd posted something similar to me re VU.

Similar sentiments to me really...it's actually been an area of strength in VU. The issue is coaxing these people with an immense amount of expertise out of academia and into a high pressure football environment. Easier said than done.

If the Bulldogs can replace Inness (who is looking for other roles by all reports) with someone like this, it would be a huge boost.

 

[stefoid]

Because the players seem to be behind him? They will only sack him if we finish down the bottom six, or the playing group come out and request change or revolt, which does not seem to be the case. If the players want him to stay, what good will it be sacking him? Divide the club even further by pissing the players off? I will always stand by what the players and captain say.

The word that seems to be going around, is even the players recognize the need for better resources around them. We have clearly been spending peanuts on the soft cap since we gutted a lot of staff around Covid, and have not invested it back into the club. Staff levels seem smaller, assistants are rookies, fitness staff made us unfit, given we always came out flat in third quarter and couldn't run out games.

Invest in a proper coaching structure, then see how it goes. If nothing improves, then boot him. If it improves, then it shows we got it wrong by hiring apprentices and not experienced coaches across our lines, and mismanaged the club post Covid.

Also our list is overrated, people need to stop thinking we are a sure fire top 4 team, consistent finishes on the fringes of the eight shows that is where we have always been. Even with a new coach, we still have holes in the list that won't be fixed over night and may not see us climb high in one season. We have no pace in the midfield, half the team cannot lay a tackle or kick, defence is still poor one on one. Need to improve the list as much as we need to improve the coaching.

be this as it may (and I disagree with parts of it)... the one single responsibility that bev does have, regardless, is the overall game plan. His job is to make the whole better than the sum of its parts. Thats not happening.

After we won in 2016, Is anyone going to say our gameplan is significantly different in any way?

Happy to be proven wrong, but all Ive seen are gimmicks that have come and gone - remember that year where early on 'tapping the ball forward to yourself' was a fashion for the first 3 or 4 games? backing off the mark was another one that came later, although that hung around for a whole year.

gameplan needs a big overhaul and I dont care who does it - thats priority #1.

 

[Shacf501]

be this as it may (and I disagree with parts of it)... the one single responsibility that bev does have, regardless, is the overall game plan. His job is to make the whole better than the sum of its parts. Thats not happening.

After we won in 2016, Is anyone going to say our gameplan is significantly different in any way?

Happy to be proven wrong, but all Ive seen are gimmicks that have come and gone - remember that year where early on 'tapping the ball forward to yourself' was a fashion for the first 3 or 4 games? backing off the mark was another one that came later, although that hung around for a whole year.

gameplan needs a big overhaul and I dont care who does it - thats priority #1.

I personally believe our tackling and desperation to defend, fight for the ground ball and run was far higher in 2016 than this year.

What we have lost is the mindset to be aggressive defensively both structurally and directly at our opponents. Agression is part of football and we don't have that anymore. Liam Picken, Clay Smith, M Boyd and Morris for example... They were good consistent players but if they were having a bad day they were still involved physically and defensively which we just don't have anymore. When things don't go our way, we whimper...

We are almost laconic when we defend especially in our zone. A zone is typically designed to stop transition and to direct the attacking team into areas of the ground where from a percentage point of view causes them to have a less effective disposal going forward. We are terrible at it! They need to learn some basketball principles on how to close space.

By playing a zone it really protects a guys like Dale, who struggles with the desire to defend because it allows themhim to float around point fingers and be lazy and leave it up to someone else.

 

[geoffjennings79]

be this as it may (and I disagree with parts of it)... the one single responsibility that bev does have, regardless, is the overall game plan. His job is to make the whole better than the sum of its parts. Thats not happening.

After we won in 2016, Is anyone going to say our gameplan is significantly different in any way?

Happy to be proven wrong, but all Ive seen are gimmicks that have come and gone - remember that year where early on 'tapping the ball forward to yourself' was a fashion for the first 3 or 4 games? backing off the mark was another one that came later, although that hung around for a whole year.

gameplan needs a big overhaul and I dont care who does it - thats priority #1.

He's shown he has alternatives too. JUH's 5-goal breakout game v Dees last year - we deliberately went inside 50 low and hard, hitting up targets to negate May/Lever intercepts. It worked. Hardly used since. We should have the flexibility in the plan to tweak it as required, game to game, opponent to opponent.

Bont/Liber tagged? Mix up CBA combination, run someone with the tagger, push Bont forward. Something, anything! The Newcombe/Tim Kelly games required at least an attempt to negate them, or at counteract their influence with an aggressive move of our own.

We don't have the midfield speed to just rely on outplaying opponents every week.

Hopefully a refreshed coaching panel in 2024 also means a refreshed base plan, with adaptability.

 

[Fossie 32]

I personally believe our tackling and desperation to defend, fight for the ground ball and run was far higher in 2016 than this year.

What we have lost is the mindset to be aggressive defensively both structurally and directly at our opponents. Agression is part of football and we don't have that anymore. Liam Picken, Clay Smith, M Boyd and Morris for example... They were good consistent players but if they were having a bad day they were still involved physically and defensively which we just don't have anymore. When things don't go our way, we whimper...

We are almost laconic when we defend especially in our zone. A zone is typically designed to stop transition and to direct the attacking team into areas of the ground where from a percentage point of view causes them to have a less effective disposal going forward. We are terrible at it! They need to learn some basketball principles on how to close space.

By playing a zone it really protects a guys like Dale, who struggles with the desire to defend because it allows themhim to float around point fingers and be lazy and leave it up to someone else.

Yeah doesn’t seem like the mindset is great

 

[Dale4captain]

Leigh Tudor leaving Essendon so Scott can form his own coaching panel around him. Any interest for us? Has been in the system a bloody long time.

 

[Iamspock]

Can definitely say this is incorrect.

One of my best mates is a Dr of Sports Science and a lecturer at VU and he is one of the smartest people I know of in this area.

He has worked with and been taught by Darren Burgess before and worked with the AFL draft combine kids during Bontempelli's draft year. (where he had a hand in taking Bont from being a complete noodle to being in the top tier of bench press strength in a very short time)

I can't comment on Inness but I know VU is not lacking in the talent area as far as sport science goes.

I'm glad you said that, my son is studying sport science there

 

[dergert]

Leigh Tudor leaving Essendon so Scott can form his own coaching panel around him. Any interest for us? Has been in the system a bloody long time.

He was at Geelong for a long time wasn't he?

He was touted as a senior coach before a few personal issues came out.

 

[Munnez]

Sliding Doors: We could have drafted Butters instead of Bailey Smith.

Now everyone would have thought we were crazy at the time because Bailey was being described as a top 5 pick in most other drafts. And Butters was considered just a good late first-rounder. Like Nathan Fyfe was a decade or so earlier.

Smith might still end up a top 20 player but it's turbulent times for him at the moment. Meanwhile Butters (a Dogs fan originally) is killing it.

No doubt Butters is killing it at the moment. I do wonder though how long a smaller mid is going to last with the absolute battering that they cop as inside mids. Time will tell and best of luck too him

 

[NBates]

I personally believe our tackling and desperation to defend, fight for the ground ball and run was far higher in 2016 than this year.

What we have lost is the mindset to be aggressive defensively both structurally and directly at our opponents. Agression is part of football and we don't have that anymore. Liam Picken, Clay Smith, M Boyd and Morris for example... They were good consistent players but if they were having a bad day they were still involved physically and defensively which we just don't have anymore. When things don't go our way, we whimper...

We are almost laconic when we defend especially in our zone. A zone is typically designed to stop transition and to direct the attacking team into areas of the ground where from a percentage point of view causes them to have a less effective disposal going forward. We are terrible at it! They need to learn some basketball principles on how to close space.

By playing a zone it really protects a guys like Dale, who struggles with the desire to defend because it allows themhim to float around point fingers and be lazy and leave it up to someone else.

And where is the fight and grunt to keep a lead when the opponent comes at us?

 

[stefoid]

I personally believe our tackling and desperation to defend, fight for the ground ball and run was far higher in 2016 than this year.

What we have lost is the mindset to be aggressive defensively both structurally and directly at our opponents. Agression is part of football and we don't have that anymore. Liam Picken, Clay Smith, M Boyd and Morris for example... They were good consistent players but if they were having a bad day they were still involved physically and defensively which we just don't have anymore. When things don't go our way, we whimper...

We are almost laconic when we defend especially in our zone. A zone is typically designed to stop transition and to direct the attacking team into areas of the ground where from a percentage point of view causes them to have a less effective disposal going forward. We are terrible at it! They need to learn some basketball principles on how to close space.

By playing a zone it really protects a guys like Dale, who struggles with the desire to defend because it allows themhim to float around point fingers and be lazy and leave it up to someone else.

the whole zones and flooding thing is super interesting. Id love to listen to someone who had a firm grasp of up to the minute strategies talk about it

It looks to me like one reaction to supreme zones and flooding of 10 years ago is quick transition and carrying the ball in numbers. A zone is hard to kick through, but it is susceptible to being penetrated by carrying the ball in numbers. A really hard press is great at preventing the opposition from marks inside 50, but your own transition suffers because everyone ends up behind the ball.

 

[Butabi Brothers]

the whole zones and flooding thing is super interesting. Id love to listen to someone who had a firm grasp of up to the minute strategies talk about it

It looks to me like one reaction to supreme zones and flooding of 10 years ago is quick transition and carrying the ball in numbers. A zone is hard to kick through, but it is susceptible to being penetrated by carrying the ball in numbers. A really hard press is great at preventing the opposition from marks inside 50, but your own transition suffers because everyone ends up behind the ball.

A zone is hard to kick through if the zone is constantly on the move in a specified area to make the zone look bigger. If the players are stationary, you can dissect it with short angles kicks just like most teams did to us all year. Your correct about running the ball through in numbers though. It creates an overlap which means once one player comes out of his zone, the next has to come up to fill that spot. Makes it easier to get it over the back. Again, like what happened to us this year.

A full flood/press only works it teams bang it long into the press. Again, if they move the ball short through it or change the angles to move the flood, you can break it down.

Arguments can be made that man on man d is still the best. It shuts down the overlap and is high pressure as it’s 50/50 contests everywhere. On the other hand, all it takes is one lazy guy to break it down.


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[Libbaaaa]

No doubt Butters is killing it at the moment. I do wonder though how long a smaller mid is going to last with the absolute battering that they cop as inside mids. Time will tell and best of luck too him

He’s almost too reckless at times, I fear for him as he is such a treat go watch.

 

[Dogs Rule]

"Same as it ever was." - Talking Heads/Brian Eno

Ultimately, most music lyrics are about footy. I think.

So true.

2016.

 

[Fossie 32]

"Same as it ever was." - Talking Heads/Brian Eno

Ultimately, most music lyrics are about footy. I think.

 

[Foxman98]

would be a very handy assistant

 

[Shacf501]

the whole zones and flooding thing is super interesting. Id love to listen to someone who had a firm grasp of up to the minute strategies talk about it

It looks to me like one reaction to supreme zones and flooding of 10 years ago is quick transition and carrying the ball in numbers. A zone is hard to kick through, but it is susceptible to being penetrated by carrying the ball in numbers. A really hard press is great at preventing the opposition from marks inside 50, but your own transition suffers because everyone ends up behind the ball.

Having coached a very decent level of basketball zones are an interesting concept. Basketball wise, the best way to beat a variety of zones is to have lots of motion and ball movement. What's interesting is basic individual fundamentals of the offensive players without the ball are just as important as the player with the ball in hand. To beat it, you need to have players without the ball getting into spots that are offensively aggressive which then makes the defence have to move. It's important to have players that have elite to above average ball handling fundamentals and skills. From a western bulldogs perspective this is where we struggle against it. We don't have enough elite kicks, players without the ball have no idea how to make the defence shift by getting to spots that create holes in the zone. Players with the ball are not aggressive enough, e very rarely play on quickly or take on the man on the mark which astounds me considering he can't move straight away anymore. It's a coaching issue 100% - Players are not educated

On the reverse, when we play a zone it's a shambles. The idea when playing one is to 1. Slow the game down and 2, make the offensive teams go to parts of the ground where you can limit their effectiveness and scoring opportunities and hopefully create a higher percentage of turnovers. We do not move in the zone, we have lazy players that do a lot of pointing and do not stay on their toes. They have no idea how to shift in the zone when someone has to go to the ball carrier. A zone easily breaks done if you have 1, 2 or 3 players not doing the fundamental things and this generally relates to laziness or lack of understanding.

Once again, 100% coaching issue

 

[VitalDread]

Ratts- Midfield
Dew- Defense

Would be a great start for us

 

[geoffjennings79]

Ratts- Midfield
Dew- Defense

Would be a great start for us

"Would" or "Will"?! Come on Vital, do you know more?!

Imagine if we went from this year's coaching group to 2024 and Bevo is surrounded by Lade and ex-senior coaches! Can Bevo bring them along for the ride as well as he paints narratives for players?

Beveridge - bench/figurehead/narrative spinner
Lade - rucks
Ratten - mids
Dew - defence
Cameron - forwards?
Buckley - tactics

Oh, goodness me.... we'll be unbeatable!
(But does a champion coaching group out-perform a coaching group of that ilk?!)

 

[VitalDread]

"Would" or "Will"?! Come on Vital, do you know more?!

Imagine if we went from this year's coaching group to 2024 and Bevo is surrounded by Lade and ex-senior coaches! Can Bevo bring them along for the ride as well as he paints narratives for players?

Beveridge - bench/figurehead/narrative spinner
Lade - rucks
Ratten - mids
Dew - defence
Cameron - forwards?
Buckley - tactics

Oh, goodness me.... we'll be unbeatable!
(But does a champion coaching group out-perform a coaching group of that ilk?!)

i can happily say that Buckley won't be in the coaching ranks unless he's getting a great paycheck or head coaching role

 

[Dogs54]

Having coached a very decent level of basketball zones are an interesting concept. Basketball wise, the best way to beat a variety of zones is to have lots of motion and ball movement. What's interesting is basic individual fundamentals of the offensive players without the ball are just as important as the player with the ball in hand. To beat it, you need to have players without the ball getting into spots that are offensively aggressive which then makes the defence have to move. It's important to have players that have elite to above average ball handling fundamentals and skills. From a western bulldogs perspective this is where we struggle against it. We don't have enough elite kicks, players without the ball have no idea how to make the defence shift by getting to spots that create holes in the zone. Players with the ball are not aggressive enough, e very rarely play on quickly or take on the man on the mark which astounds me considering he can't move straight away anymore. It's a coaching issue 100% - Players are not educated

On the reverse, when we play a zone it's a shambles. The idea when playing one is to 1. Slow the game down and 2, make the offensive teams go to parts of the ground where you can limit their effectiveness and scoring opportunities and hopefully create a higher percentage of turnovers. We do not move in the zone, we have lazy players that do a lot of pointing and do not stay on their toes. They have no idea how to shift in the zone when someone has to go to the ball carrier. A zone easily breaks done if you have 1, 2 or 3 players not doing the fundamental things and this generally relates to laziness or lack of understanding.

Once again, 100% coaching issue

I'm also from a basketball background having played and coached for 25+ years and agree 100% with your comments. Can I also add you must teach man on man defence before progressing to a zone defence because the offence will try to isolate poor defenders to score easier goals. From what I see we have players in defence who cannot defend which in turn we see lack of movement in our zone and hence easy scores.