Roast Geelong can't develop young players

[STPer18]

Gee this has aged well already... gotta love squawk supporter telling us we're in a world of hurt. I guess they would know a thing or two about being there.

To be fair they were right about falling off the cliff being a painful experience. Just go it wrong that it was them hurtling towards the depths at an extreme rate of knots, not us.



That's all folks!

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Our strategy for remaining competitive has been to fill holes in the sides using mature-age trade-ins, FAs and state league players. Prior to the last couple of years, we traded out substantial amount of draft capital to enable this and displaced young players from the list to accommodate the recycled players. Very few youths have come along at Geelong, but Chris Scott is unwilling to even try. He won't even give games to most of them.

A guy like Constable racks up 30+ disposals in a game and gets dropped. Narkle has a few games similar but can't get a look in. Clark wasn't given games because he likely wasn't dour enough for Scott and Scarlett after a good first year.

We haven't drafted many quality young players and we give few young players time to develop in seniors. We've also been quick to trade youth away to accommodate the acquisition of older players. Whether a young side could develop under Chris Scott is likely something we'll never know, because he's never been in that position. In his entire 11-year career, only an immensely small number of players have started as an 18 year old with him and progressed into a consistent, best 22 player under his system. Quite incredible, really.

Two years on and I reckon Geelong nailed all those decisions.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Wow. Good re-read.
Partridge had a mare. Not surprising.

Blicavs added a All Australian since this started. Epic fail.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

We'll probably clock this whole rebuild thing that other clubs seem to get stuck in a loop forever too.

 

[Catastrophe!]

Holmes, De Koning and Henry yes. but dempsey, Knevitt, Bruhn , clark, Conway and Neale all completely unproven. bruhn has shown a tad but nothing elite.
I think because Geelong haven't had to rebuild because they've been a force for so long that their fans actually don't know what elite juniors are. As a dees fan, we had many promising juniors that played promising footy for a season or two only to fizzle out of the system.

You do realize that we developed all of Miers, Close, J. Henry, Blicavs, Z. Guthrie, T. Atkins (VFL), and O'Connor, all from relative obscurity/the end of the draft...and turned them into Premiership players, yeah?

We also developed Blicavs, Duncan and Guthrie who turned into elite players. Kolodjashnij and Bews, again drafted. Stewart was good in the GFL, but he wasn't this good. Dempsey was barely even playing football when we drafted him - now a rising star nom.

It's almost as if we somehow developed these players ourselves into being solid AFL players - when most thought the rookies and misfits in the first list would never make it at the highest level. Zach Guthrie is an amazing example of development, as is Miers and O'Connor.

Now we have Holmes, SDK, Dempsey, Bruhn and O. Henry who are all tracking really well under our development. Bruhn and O. Henry obviously from other clubs, but didn't have the exposure and now starting to show their wares.

So this narrative of 'oh Geelong doesn't develop its players', is just a furphy. If we didn't develop our players, we wouldn't be able to win a flag with a bunch of rookies and players drafted at Pick 40 or below, playing key roles in a Premiership win.

We haven't had access to the elite end of the draft, except for Jhye Clark in '22 and O'Sullivan last year. The vast majority of our list comes from taking players that others either pass on/don't even know about, and developing them into AFL level players. That my friend, is the definition of development. Not being handed high draft picks from being consistently shit for decades and knowing they're going to work out, but having nothing picks and turning them into players that don't just get delisted in 2 or 3 years and add nothing.

 

[danster168]

You do realize that we developed all of Miers, Close, J. Henry, Blicavs, Z. Guthrie, T. Atkins (VFL), and O'Connor, all from relative obscurity/the end of the draft...and turned them into Premiership players, yeah?

We also developed Blicavs, Duncan and Guthrie who turned into elite players. Kolodjashnij and Bews, again drafted. Stewart was good in the VFL, but he wasn't this good. Dempsey was barely even playing football when we drafted him - now a rising star nom.

It's almost as if we somehow developed these players ourselves into being solid AFL players - when most thought the rookies and misfits in the first list would never make it at the highest level. Zach Guthrie is an amazing example of development, as is Miers and O'Connor.

Now we have Holmes, SDK, Dempsey, Bruhn and O. Henry who are all tracking really well under our development. Bruhn and O. Henry obviously from other clubs, but didn't have the exposure and now starting to show their wares.

So this narrative of 'oh Geelong doesn't develop its players', is just a furphy. If we didn't develop our players, we wouldn't be able to win a flag with a bunch of rookies and players drafted at Pick 40 or below, playing key roles in a Premiership win.

We haven't had access to the elite end of the draft, except for Jhye Clark in '22 and O'Sullivan last year. The vast majority of our list comes from taking players that others either pass on/don't even know about, and developing them into AFL level players. That my friend, is the definition of development. Not being handed high draft picks from being consistently s**t for decades and knowing they're going to work out, but having nothing picks and turning them into players that don't just get delisted in 2 or 3 years and add nothing.

Literally every team has those players. Here I'll try. You do realise we developed all of Petty, McVee, Sparrow, Rivers, Fritsch (VFL), Howes, Neal-Bullen and Kade Chandler. Many of these guys were not early picks.

 

[Catastrophe!]

Literally every team has those players. Here I'll try. You do realise we developed all of Petty, McVee, Sparrow, Rivers, Fritsch (VFL), Howes, Neal-Bullen and Kade Chandler. Many of these guys were not early picks.

I love that that's all you have to say. So what I've proven then is that we're literally no better/worse than other teams at it?

Btw, Howes is 3 games in, with no accolades - I really don't know how you can count him as development.

In fact digging a little deeper, Howes (39), Petty (37), Rivers (32), Sparrow (27), are all second rounders. That's not relative obscurity, lol - especially Rivers and Sparrow. Fritsch, Neal-Bullen and Chandler fit the bill when comparing the two, so you're not even in the same ball-park.

Comparatively, Z. Guthrie (Rookie Pick 33), O'Connor (Cat B), Blics (Cat B), Miers (Pick 57), Close (Rookie Pick 14), Tom Atkins (Rookie Pick 11), J. Henry (Rookie Pick 16) and Dempsey (Rookie Pick 15), were taken with nothing picks. They're in no way comparable.

But you keep acting like we don't develop players, because you know everything don't you? You'll never admit you're wrong, or out of your depth. Just the same old schtick commenting on everything thinking you're an expert on everything. You're not. So kindly get lost.

 

[WillHayward]

Geelong are smart in that they run a professional football program and not an Auskick program like some other clubs.

Geelong appear to be uniquely able to do this with the lifestyle offering but also create a culture for older blokes to thrive.
This is probably a combination of culture and tailoring their training and conditioning.

 

[Catastrophe!]

Geelong are smart in that they run a professional football program and not an Auskick program like some other clubs.

Geelong appear to be uniquely able to do this with the lifestyle offering but also create a culture for older blokes to thrive.
This is probably a combination of culture and tailoring their training and conditioning.

It's why our two clubs are the best at development, in my opinion, no matter where a player gets taken in the draft. Did not think Roberts would turn out this good.

We've also got Lawson Humphries as another nobody, who people are quietly excited by. Conway in the VFL along with Shannon Neale and James Willis, and Knevitt and Mullin who keep developing.

 

[My Tilly]

Wow. Good re-read.
Partridge had a mare. Not surprising.

Blicavs added a All Australian since this started. Epic fail.

I put my hand up and gladly admit I doubted Scott and our team for a very long time. 2022 proved many wrong.
Incredibly lucky fan base I think we are.

To once more be a decent chance for finals in 2024 with Selwood & Smith retired, no longer require Duncan, Rohan or Bews . . . . it's any wonder some neutrals despise us.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

Geelong are smart in that they run a professional football program and not an Auskick program like some other clubs.

Geelong appear to be uniquely able to do this with the lifestyle offering but also create a culture for older blokes to thrive.
This is probably a combination of culture and tailoring their training and conditioning.

Your current CEO played a huge role in this as our Captain. There's a reason Sydney made him CEO at the age of just 41.

It's too late now but imo, the new stand should have been named the Captain's Stand. I think Selwood ended up where he did, in part, due to the foundations set by Harley.

 

[My Tilly]

The one many are underrating is Miers. I honestly think he's among our most important players now. He's gone from racking up 15 disposals to 20 disposals a game and is often one of the main links in the scoring chain. Very unorthodox with his skills. Catches the opposition out on a consistent basis.
May be in for a pretty good year.

 

[PhatBoy]

Literally every team has those players. Here I'll try. You do realise we developed all of Petty, McVee, Sparrow, Rivers, Fritsch (VFL), Howes, Neal-Bullen and Kade Chandler. Many of these guys were not early picks.

Literally not every team gets accused every season for the last 14 of being:

• about to drop off the cliff
• unable to draft anyone
• unable to develop players
• unable to rebuild
• in for decades in the wilderness

 

[WillHayward]

The one many are underrating is Miers. I honestly think he's among our most important players now. He's gone from racking up 15 disposals to 20 disposals a game and is often one of the main links in the scoring chain. Very unorthodox with his skills. Catches the opposition out on a consistent basis.
May be in for a pretty good year.

His kicking is unique..doesn't get the credit he deserves.

 

[danster168]

I love that that's all you have to say. So what I've proven then is that we're literally no better/worse than other teams at it?

Btw, Howes is 3 games in, with no accolades - I really don't know how you can count him as development.

In fact digging a little deeper, Howes (39), Petty (37), Rivers (32), Sparrow (27), are all second rounders. That's not relative obscurity, lol - especially Rivers and Sparrow. Fritsch, Neal-Bullen and Chandler fit the bill when comparing the two, so you're not even in the same ball-park.

Comparatively, Z. Guthrie (Rookie Pick 33), O'Connor (Cat B), Blics (Cat B), Miers (Pick 57), Close (Rookie Pick 14), Tom Atkins (Rookie Pick 11), J. Henry (Rookie Pick 16) and Dempsey (Rookie Pick 15), were taken with nothing picks. They're in no way comparable.

But you keep acting like we don't develop players, because you know everything don't you? You'll never admit you're wrong, or out of your depth. Just the same old schtick commenting on everything thinking you're an expert on everything. You're not. So kindly get lost.

I'm not saying Geelong is bad at developing players. Can you actually show me where I said that, cheers ahead of time. I just think that Geelong fans continually name players that have shown very little at afl level or wouldn't warrant anything outside a late 2nd round draft pick.

 

[danster168]

Literally not every team gets accused every season for the last 14 of being:

• about to drop off the cliff
• unable to draft anyone
• unable to develop players
• unable to rebuild
• in for decades in the wilderness

I think a huge reliance is on Hawkins. Until he hangs up the boots, then I think Geelong will be okay/somewhat relevant. Every team is able to rebuild but you need early picks to do so. I think Geelong need to draft some more elite young talent because I see O'Connell, Holmes and De Koning as the only 3 that I would say have AA squad calibre potential.

 

[Catastrophe!]

I'm not saying Geelong is bad at developing players. Can you actually show me where I said that, cheers ahead of time. I just think that Geelong fans continually name players that have shown very little at afl level or wouldn't warrant anything outside a late 2nd round draft pick.

"I think because Geelong haven't had to rebuild because they've been a force for so long that their fans actually don't know what elite juniors are."

The insinuation being that we still need to rebuild...meaning we haven't developed any talent for the next gen - post Hawkins.

We've literally rebuilt twice on the run, with Selwood as the only constant retiring in 2022. Hawkins only became the player he is today in the 2011 GF.

Since that GF, we have gone through a rebuild that included players like Duncan, C. Guthrie, Bews, Blicavs, Menegola, J. Kolodjashnij, S. Motlop, Lang, T. Kelly, Menzel, Cockatoo, Vardy, Christensen, Thurlow, L. McCarthy, Murdoch etc. + Danger, Caddy, S. Higgins, Tuohy, S. Selwood, Dahlhaus, Rohan, Stanley, GAJ, Henderson, Rivers etc. as trade ins.

The next gen in the rebuild was then drafted in 2016 onwards (with the exception of Kelly and Menegola who were readymade. Stewart was not, and was playing GFL and took a year before he reached his peak, but for the purposes of this exercise I will consider him part of the previous gen).

Post 2020, we got Jeremy Cameron and Isaac Smith, and then after the fallout of 2021, we put more emphasis on developing/drafting young kids, bringing younger players in.

This new rebuild includes the following players: Z. Guthrie, J. Henry, Ratugolea (no longer here), Parfitt, Miers, T. Atkins, O'Connor, Knevitt, Conway, Holmes, SDK, S. Neale, Dempsey, Close, Stengle, O. Henry, Bruhn, Bowes, Mannagh, Clohesy, Clark, O'Sullivan, Mullin - who have all played at least 1 AFL game and look to have a future. Some may be older, some may be younger, but there's a fair core there has at least another 5-8 years in it.

Those are two different rebuilds, done on the run, and with vastly different playing groups. It may very well be that once Hawkins finishes we have to slide back and draft more, but that doesn't change the fact that we've rebuilt twice and developed a lot of different talent over the years, whilst competing consistently.

You're out of your depth here. It would be like me commenting on matters to do with your club, and acting superior - when you would rightly know more than I do...given it's your club. Maybe take the L and move on, because you clearly don't know that much about our list, our history, our development, our kids, or where the club sees itself.

See ya.

 

[danster168]

"I think because Geelong haven't had to rebuild because they've been a force for so long that their fans actually don't know what elite juniors are."

The insinuation being that we still need to rebuild...meaning we haven't developed any talent for the next gen - post Hawkins.

We've literally rebuilt twice on the run, with Selwood as the only constant retiring in 2022. Hawkins only became the player he is today in the 2011 GF.

Since that GF, we have gone through a rebuild that included players like Duncan, C. Guthrie, Bews, Blicavs, Menegola, J. Kolodjashnij, S. Motlop, Lang, T. Kelly, Menzel, Cockatoo, Vardy, Christensen, Thurlow, L. McCarthy, Murdoch etc. + Danger, Caddy, S. Higgins, Tuohy, S. Selwood, Dahlhaus, Rohan, Stanley, GAJ, Henderson, Rivers etc. as trade ins.

The next gen in the rebuild was then drafted in 2016 onwards (with the exception of Kelly and Menegola who were readymade. Stewart was not, and was playing GFL and took a year before he reached his peak, but for the purposes of this exercise I will consider him part of the previous gen).

Post 2020, we got Jeremy Cameron and Isaac Smith, and then after the fallout of 2021, we put more emphasis on developing/drafting young kids, bringing younger players in.

This new rebuild includes the following players: Z. Guthrie, J. Henry, Ratugolea (no longer here), Parfitt, Miers, T. Atkins, O'Connor, Knevitt, Conway, Holmes, SDK, S. Neale, Dempsey, Close, Stengle, O. Henry, Bruhn, Bowes, Mannagh, Clohesy, Clark, O'Sullivan, Mullin - who have all played at least 1 AFL game and look to have a future. Some may be older, some may be younger, but there's a fair core there has at least another 5-8 years in it.

Those are two different rebuilds, done on the run, and with vastly different playing groups. It may very well be that once Hawkins finishes we have to slide back and draft more, but that doesn't change the fact that we've rebuilt twice and developed a lot of different talent over the years, whilst competing consistently.

You're out of your depth here. It would be like me commenting on matters to do with your club, and acting superior - when you would rightly know more than I do...given it's your club. Maybe take the L and move on, because you clearly don't know that much about our list, our history, our development, our kids, or where the club sees itself.

See ya.

Of course you need to continue to build up talent. Saying that you need to continue to rebuild young talent isn't saying that Geelong is bad at developing young talent. It's saying that you haven't needed to rebuild.

Now we have significantly differing views on your list.

Obviously you guys can go back up into the top 8 if you recruit a big fish like Jeremy Cameron but the improvement isn't coming off a young core. No-one can predict who is going to pick up a free agent or things like this.

You're naming a bunch of guys that have been in the system for as long as 7 years and shown to be just so-so players. The list of players you mentioned are pretty average. The fact that you're listing 25 year olds as being 'young' like what the hell. Show me your 18-22 year olds. Melbourne has got 2 young players in Howes and McVee who are only 20 who are playing decent, regular best 22 footy in a top 4-6 team. Who are your truly young players? Dempsey? Clark is playing a juicy inside mid role and struggling to find the ball getting his 13 possessions everything and looks to show no ceiling in his game.

I'm not out of my depth at all. I watch every Geelong game.

Mannagh is 26 is he not? What are you doing listing him as young? De Koning, O'Sullivan, Holmes are the only 3 youngsters I consider as genuine hopeful young talent. The jury is out on Dempsey. He's like many small pockets that shine early like Noah Long from west coast. Conway is looking somewhat promising.

The fact that you're naming 26 years olds as young is bizarre. It's like me saying 'Melbourne's next rebuild is being based off Petracca and Oliver'.

 

[Catastrophe!]

Of course you need to continue to build up talent. Saying that you need to continue to rebuild young talent isn't saying that Geelong is bad at developing young talent. It's saying that you haven't needed to rebuild.

Now we have significantly differing views on your list.

Obviously you guys can go back up into the top 8 if you recruit a big fish like Jeremy Cameron but the improvement isn't coming off a young core. No-one can predict who is going to pick up a free agent or things like this.

You're naming a bunch of guys that have been in the system for as long as 7 years and shown to be just so-so players. The list of players you mentioned are pretty average. The fact that you're listing 25 year olds as being 'young' like what the hell. Show me your 18-22 year olds. Melbourne has got 2 young players in Howes and McVee who are only 20 who are playing decent, regular best 22 footy in a top 4-6 team. Who are your truly young players? Dempsey? Clark is playing a juicy inside mid role and struggling to find the ball getting his 13 possessions everything and looks to show no ceiling in his game.

I'm not out of my depth at all. I watch every Geelong game.

Mannagh is 26 is he not? What are you doing listing him as young? De Koning, O'Sullivan, Holmes are the only 3 youngsters I consider as genuine hopeful young talent. The jury is out on Dempsey. He's like many small pockets that shine early like Noah Long from west coast. Conway is looking somewhat promising.

The fact that you're naming 26 years olds as young is bizarre. It's like me saying 'Melbourne's next rebuild is being based off Petracca and Oliver'.

I said the rebuild started in 2021, when they were 22, you absolute idiot. We are constantly regenerating the list.

Dempsey, Holmes, O. Henry and Bruhn. Those are our current crop that meet your dipsh*t criteria.

We also have Conway, Jhye, S. Neale and O'Sullivan. Jhye has played 2 and a quarter games, so might want to give him a bit, hey? Howes has played 3, and hasn't achieved sh*t so it works both ways too.

F*ck you're annoying. You're too stupid to actually listen and engage with what I'm saying, or anyone else on here. Just parrot your own nonsense endlessly.

Ignored.

 

[PhatBoy]

Much of the shit slinging in this thread just highlights what I find the funniest about AFL discussion in general and someone else highlighted it a few days ago:

Who the f**k cares about 2028. Every team seems to be perennially only interested in a competition that’s going to take place in five years time, as though they mean more than the one being competed for now.

So f**king what if Shaun Mannagh is 26. Who cares. He’s got 6-7 seasons of footy in front of him and is more or less ready to go now, give or take half a season.
The 25 year olds don’t HAVE to be young 20 year olds for the cats to have a future into the next two years because - f**ken wait for it - in the next two years they will be 26 and 27, rather than sitting next to Sam Newman doing racist takes in a radio studio. Two years ago everyone that follows the sport was piling on about about we’d cooked ourselves, meanwhile we snuck past everyone and smashed everything in front of us 16 weeks in a row and won another flag BECAUSE we concentrated on what we had available to use instead of just continually looking five years down the road.



Its honestly the most bizarre attitude I’ve ever come across in any sport aside from cricket where the perennial discussion seems to be about the next ashes series before the upcoming one has been completed.

 

[Catastrophe!]

Much of the s**t slinging in this thread just highlights what I find the funniest about AFL discussion in general and someone else highlighted it a few days ago:

Who the f**k cares about 2028. Every team seems to be perennially only interested in a competition that’s going to take place in five years time, as though they mean more than the one being competed for now.

So f**king what if Shaun Mannagh is 26. Who cares. He’s got 6-7 seasons of footy in front of him and is more or less ready to go now, give or take half a season.
The 25 year olds don’t HAVE to be young 20 year olds for the cats to have a future into the next two years because - f**ken wait for it - in the next two years they will be 26 and 27, rather than sitting next to Sam Newman doing racist takes in a radio studio. Two years ago everyone that follows the sport was piling on about about we’d cooked ourselves, meanwhile we snuck past everyone and smashed everything in front of us 16 weeks in a row and won another flag BECAUSE we concentrated on what we had available to use instead of just continually looking five years down the road.



Its honestly the most bizarre attitude I’ve ever come across in any sport aside from cricket where the perennial discussion seems to be about the next ashes series before the upcoming one has been completed.

You know what's even more hilarious? The fact that he's telling us to rebuild when Dees have got 14 players 26 or under who have played an AFL game - pre-season or Premiership match -, and we have 22. Dees have 19 players 27 or older who have played an AFL game, we have 13.

Maybe he should be looking at his own club for a f*cking rebuild, lol.

 

[Footy Smarts]

You know what's even more hilarious? The fact that he's telling us to rebuild when Dees have got 14 players 26 or under who have played an AFL game - pre-season or Premiership match -, and we have 22. Dees have 19 players 27 or older who have played an AFL game, we have 13.

Maybe he should be looking at his own club for a f*cking rebuild, lol.

But you forget that they are getting games into obvious star Blake Howes while we're wasting our time on busts like Jhye Clark and Ollie Dempsey.

 

[Taper]

The one many are underrating is Miers. I honestly think he's among our most important players now. He's gone from racking up 15 disposals to 20 disposals a game and is often one of the main links in the scoring chain. Very unorthodox with his skills. Catches the opposition out on a consistent basis.
May be in for a pretty good year.

Reminds me of Brent Harvey who was also very underrated throughout his career.
Not bad for pick 57.

 

[Footy_Fan2007]

I think a huge reliance is on Hawkins. Until he hangs up the boots, then I think Geelong will be okay/somewhat relevant. Every team is able to rebuild but you need early picks to do so. I think Geelong need to draft some more elite young talent because I see O'Connell, Holmes and De Koning as the only 3 that I would say have AA squad calibre potential.

Who on earth is O’Connell?

 

[STPer18]

Who on earth is O’Connell?

Wellsy found another one!