Banter Geelong V Richmond - GO!

[Wosh]

In the interests of keeping your back and forth shite fights out of match threads so normal people can talk.

Keep it clean and above the shorts
Off topic rubbish clogging up match threads will be moved here, knock yourselves out.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

Depends what you want to look at, I see this.

Jack has more:

Colemans

Leading goal kickers

Higher goal per game average

Best and fairests

More goals kicked in a game

More goals kicked in a season

Kicked more bags in a game (6+)

Outscored the whole GWS TEAM in a GF

I think it’s pretty outrageous to not think Jack is in front tbh. What else does he need to beat him in?

I’m riveted. Do you think you’ll be able to convince Lunchy?

I’m on the edge of my seat waiting to see how this conversation works out.

 

[Lunchtime]

Yeah it’s a banter thread. It’s obviously not trash but it’s not top tier either

Whats top tier then?

 

[Cleansweep17]

Whats top tier then?

Double figures.

I mean even Josh Bruce could manage it. Hence why I believe Hawkins peak is 2nd maybe even 3rd tier with McKay. All he’s got going for him is longevity and some Ruckwork.

 

[STPer18]

All he’s got going for him is longevity and some Ruckwork.

And more goals then Jacky, and more goal assists than Jacky, and more contested marks than Jacky, and more marks inside 50 than Jacky, and more All-Australians than Jacky - you know, all that good stuff you want from a key forward.

 

[Cleansweep17]

And more goals then Jacky, and more goal assists than Jacky, and more contested marks than Jacky, and more marks inside 50 than Jacky, and more All-Australians than Jacky - you know, all that good stuff you want from a key forward.

Most of that is because he played more games. And that AA was stolen. Jack as the Coleman medalist was better in 2012. So it’s 4 v 4 AAs.

Must be weird not value a better goal kicker in essentially every metric as better. Idk how you do it. Such a losing battle.

When they start introducing ex players on media with assists under their name I might consider this as a legit debate.

 

[STPer18]

And that AA was stolen. Jack as the Coleman medalist was better in 2012. So it’s 4 v 4 AAs.

 

[PhatBoy]

Most of that is because he played more games. And that AA was stolen. Jack as the Coleman medalist was better in 2012. So it’s 4 v 4 AAs.

Must be weird not value a better goal kicker in essentially every metric as better. Idk how you do it. Such a losing battle.

When they start introducing ex players on media with assists under their name I might consider this as a legit debate.

It’s 5 AA vs 3.

You don’t like him missing out one year when he was the Coleman medalist but have no problem making it in 2015 when he averaged less goals per game than Hawkins (2015), and don’t seem to have an issue with Hawkins missing out in 2018 when he averaged 4 goals and assists combined while Jack and Lance couldn’t top it, and they picked two midfielders in the forward line.


Interesting stance.

Probably lucky Hawkins doesn’t have 6-7 jackets realistically

 

[Seeds]

Most of that is because he played more games. And that AA was stolen. Jack as the Coleman medalist was better in 2012. So it’s 4 v 4 AAs.

Must be weird not value a better goal kicker in essentially every metric as better. Idk how you do it. Such a losing battle.

When they start introducing ex players on media with assists under their name I might consider this as a legit debate.

Its a joke the riewoldt got the all australian ahead of hawkins in 2018.

Should be hawkins 6 and riewoldt 2.


And the only reason we even have this riewoldt vs hawkins debate is hawkins stuffed his back and played injured for 5 years during his peak mid twenties years. If it wasnt for that we wouldnt even consider j.riewoldt in the same conversation as hawkins.

 

[Cleansweep17]

It’s 5 AA vs 3.

You don’t like him missing out one year when he was the Coleman medalist but have no problem making it in 2015 when he averaged less goals per game than Hawkins (2015), and don’t seem to have an issue with Hawkins missing out in 2018 when he averaged 4 goals and assists combined while Jack and Lance couldn’t top it, and they picked two midfielders in the forward line.


Interesting stance.

Probably lucky Hawkins doesn’t have 6-7 jackets realistically

Hawkins kicked 46 goals and played 19 games are you drunk?

And ffs give it a rest with assists nobody gives a shit. It’s why Miers didn’t even make the squad last season and he nearly broke the record or something.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Its a joke the riewoldt got the all australian ahead of hawkins in 2018.

Should be hawkins 6 and riewoldt 2.


And the only reason we even have this riewoldt vs hawkins debate is hawkins stuffed his back and played injured for 5 years during his peak mid twenties years. If it wasnt for that we wouldnt even consider j.riewoldt in the same conversation as hawkins.

Jack got the Coleman in 2018.

Is it national beer day at Geelong or something today?

 

[PhatBoy]

Hawkins kicked 46 goals and played 19 games are you drunk?

And ffs give it a rest with assists nobody gives a s**t. It’s why Miers didn’t even make the squad last season and he nearly broke the record or something.

Jack got the Coleman in 2018.

Is it national beer day at Geelong or something today?

So what. What rule says that he has to be picked based on that? Don’t they pick the team based on who’s been the best? I thought there were other facets of football than just having one skill.

Sorry to break it to you but people do give a shit. It’s why one of the two players being mentioned has been picked five times and the other one has been picked three times

 

[Cleansweep17]

So what. What rule says that he has to be picked based on that? Don’t they pick the team based on who’s been the best? I thought there were other facets of football than just having one skill.

Sorry to break it to you but people do give a s**t. It’s why one of the two players being mentioned has been picked five times and the other one has been picked three times

One plays for Geelong, the other for Richmond. Hawks people get it.

And again all you value is consistency, it’s actually a sad way to think.

So who’s peak was higher Riewoldts or Hawkins? And why? If you use AAs again I’ll know you don’t know how to answer the question/are just avoiding it.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

Most of that is because he played more games. And that AA was stolen. Jack as the Coleman medalist was better in 2012. So it’s 4 v 4 AAs.

Must be weird not value a better goal kicker in essentially every metric as better. Idk how you do it. Such a losing battle.

When they start introducing ex players on media with assists under their name I might consider this as a legit debate.

“And that AA was stolen”.

Oh boy, this is excellent stuff. Thanks for the amusement.

 

[Cleansweep17]

“And that AA was stolen”.

Oh boy, this is excellent stuff. Thanks for the amusement.

Nah you’ve never said that about our players. i.e Dusty

Yes I do and you’d agree with me if Hawkins won a Coleman and didn’t get the AA. Reeks of bias.

 

[Mr Meow]

Hawkins kicked 46 goals and played 19 games are you drunk?

And ffs give it a rest with assists nobody gives a s**t. It’s why Miers didn’t even make the squad last season and he nearly broke the record or something.

Who has the most

-Goals
-Goal assists
-Score involvements
-Brownlow votes
-Coaches votes

Is a great way to compare key forwards. Whoever is on top in most of the categories wins. And you don't get rewarded for playing less games i.e a shorter career with more injury interruptions along the way.

So let's give it an unbiased analysis. Winners in each category will be bolded for clarity, with a sum of all stats at the end:

-Hawkins 791 goals vs Riewoldt 787
-Hawkins 294 goal assists vs Riewoldt 249
-Hawkins 1987 score involvements vs Riewoldt 1671 (data available 2012 onwards only)
-Hawkins 73 Brownlow votes vs Riewoldt 62
-Hawkins 393 coaches votes vs Riewoldt 319
-Sum: Hawkins 3538 vs Riewoldt 3088

Final tally: Hawkins 6 vs Riewoldt 0

Lunchtime/Carboot will be angered by this, Cleany will have a meltdown and order is thus restored.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

Nah you’ve never said that about our players. i.e Dusty

Yes I do and you’d agree with me if Hawkins won a Coleman and didn’t get the AA. Reeks of bias.

Wut?

 

[Cleansweep17]

Who has the most

-Goals
-Goal assists
-Score involvements
-Brownlow votes
-Coaches votes

Is a great way to compare key forwards. Whoever is on top in most of the categories wins. And you don't get rewarded for playing less games i.e a shorter career with more injury interruptions along the way.

So let's give it an unbiased analysis. Winners in each category will be bolded for clarity, with a sum of all stats at the end:

-Hawkins 791 goals vs Riewoldt 787
-Hawkins 294 goal assists vs Riewoldt 249
-Hawkins 1987 score involvements vs Riewoldt 1671 (data available 2012 onwards only)
-Hawkins 73 Brownlow votes vs Riewoldt 62
-Hawkins 393 coaches votes vs Riewoldt 319
-Sum: Hawkins 3538 vs Riewoldt 3088

Final tally: Hawkins 6 vs Riewoldt 0

Lunchtime/Carboot will be angered by this, Cleany will have a meltdown and order is thus restored.

Now do goal averages and goal awards and even B&Fs since you value that so much. It’s a landslide in Jacks favour.

Just give it up, Jacks got a better Resume. He’s been the best forward in the league 3 times against 1.

Hawkins is a great runner up, it’s the Geelong way. It’s sort of poetic that his greatest strength is assisting

 

[Mr Meow]

Now do goal averages and goal awards and even B&Fs since you value that so much. It’s a landslide in Jacks favour.

Just give it up, Jacks got a better Resume. He’s been the best forward in the league 3 times against 1.

Hawkins is a great runner up, it’s the Geelong way. It’s sort of poetic that his greatest strength is assisting

Like I said, you don't get rewarded for having a shorter career (averages) or else you could run a marathon harder and just finish 1000m early (faster average still).

Goal awards? It's much more statistically vigorous to look at data that covers their whole careers i.e total output. For scoring metrics it has always been done that way, including in the NBA and worldwide soccer competitions. Competitions where goals and assists are universally recognised as the gold standard metrics for attackers. Coaches and Brownlow votes then give us another angle to reward consistently strong/influential performances. I was surprised to see Jack losing those as well to be honest. He was always one of my favourites.

I am happy with my system but am sad that it annoys you. Oh well.

 

[PhatBoy]

One plays for Geelong, the other for Richmond. Hawks people get it.

And again all you value is consistency, it’s actually a sad way to think.

So who’s peak was higher Riewoldts or Hawkins? And why? If you use AAs again I’ll know you don’t know how to answer the question/are just avoiding it.

I value him being a better player too so there’s that.

 

[PhatBoy]

Now do goal averages and goal awards and even B&Fs since you value that so much. It’s a landslide in Jacks favour.

Just give it up, Jacks got a better Resume. He’s been the best forward in the league 3 times against 1.

Hawkins is a great runner up, it’s the Geelong way. It’s sort of poetic that his greatest strength is assisting

You really don’t like that we’ve been more successful than you in any relevant recent time period do you

So now best forward is decided by one thing?

That’s it. That’s literally it . You could kick one less goal than the Coleman medalist, have 150 more assists, lay 500 tackles, attend half a dozen centre bounces a game for good measure but you won’t be a better forward than the other guy.

I suppose it’s why Ben Brown is still so highly regarded by all and sundry.

 

[caveman72]

Cleansweep17 how many of your 3000 odd posts have been related to the Geelong football Club or one of its past or present players?

My guess would be around 90% but wouldn't be surprised if it was a fair bit higher. Any other posters on here willing to take a guess at the percentage?

 

[Seeds]

Jack got the Coleman in 2018.

Is it national beer day at Geelong or something today?

And hawkins was the superior foward in 2018. Combined goals and goal assists were clearly higher then riewoldts and did it playing in an inferior side that gave fowards less opportunity.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Like I said, you don't get rewarded for having a shorter career (averages) or else you could run a marathon harder and just finish 1000m early (faster average still).

Goal awards? It's much more statistically vigorous to look at data that covers their whole careers i.e total output. For scoring metrics it has always been done that way, including in the NBA and worldwide soccer competitions. Competitions where goals and assists are universally recognised as the gold standard metrics for attackers. Coaches and Brownlow votes then give us another angle to reward consistently strong/influential performances. I was surprised to see Jack losing those as well to be honest. He was always one of my favourites.

I am happy with my system but am sad that it annoys you. Oh well.

Why would you use the votes for the awards but not the awards themselves. Wtf logic is that

And like I said as soon as somebody introduces an ex player as a x time assister. I’ll consider changing my mind.

 

[Cleansweep17]

And hawkins was the superior foward in 2018. Combined goals and goal assists were clearly higher then riewoldts and did it playing in an inferior side that gave fowards less opportunity.

That’s because you are using a flawed metric that nobody cares about. It’s a Geelong thing, I’m surprised Boomer Harvey isn’t your GOAT.

 

[Mr Meow]

Why would you use the votes for the awards but not the awards themselves. Wtf logic is that

And like I said as soon as somebody introduces an ex player as a x time assister. I’ll consider changing my mind.

It's foolish to prefer goals over total goal and score involvements. It's like having one topping on your pizza. You are only having cheese on your pizza. I'm throwing a couple of other interesting and relevant ones on.

The votes for the awards? For Brownlow and Coaches votes for forwards it absolutely makes sense as it is incredibly difficult for them to win those awards. Which would be like not using disposal counts over a career, instead only using "times they finished with the most disposals in a season".