No Oppo Supporters General AFL and other clubs discussion thread. **Opposition fans not welcome** Part 6

[Chief]

This is Part 6.

You can post in Part 7 here:

No Oppo Supporters - General AFL and other clubs discussion thread. **Opposition fans not welcome** Part 7

Previous chat threads can be found here https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/general-afl-and-other-clubs-discussion-thread-opposition-fans-not-welcome-part-5.1223668/ https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/general-afl-and-other-clubs-discussion-thread-opposition-fans-not-welcome-part-6.1244786/

www.bigfooty.com

 

[eldorado]

How about drug addicts with a record?

Would you be okay with that type of person at the club?

Addicts? No

They're generally not very good at focusing on professional sport

Someone who has been found guilty of using drugs? Sure

I've taken any number of illegal drugs. Many times. Not a second thought.

Not once in my post-childhood life has it ever occurred to me to hit/threaten a woman. Not when sober. Not when under the influence. Never.

If you honestly think there is a moral equivalence between what you choose to do to yourself for fun, and bashing a physically weaker person, then...wow

Bashing a woman is not a 'mistake' that anyone could make.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

He never said that. You really are the Damian Barrett of this board. You love to take one line or post out of context and turn people into 'sympathisers of domestic violence', 'Pell sympathisers' (even thought he was acquitted by the high court as there was a real risk an innocent person had been imprisoned).

Even old mate Taita comes to the party.

Mess, Abasi, Gralin and Taita are all friends posters should know this. This does not allow for independent moderation or discussion but enables bullying.

You know what enables bullying, making specific and incorrect claims about a bunch of posters not even involved in this discussion so that others can pile on.

 

[Messenger]

He never said that. You really are the Damian Barrett of this board. You love to take one line or post out of context and turn people into 'sympathisers of domestic violence', 'Pell sympathisers' (even thought he was acquitted by the high court as there was a real risk an innocent person had been imprisoned).

Even old mate Taita comes to the party.

Mess, Abasi, Gralin and Taita are all friends posters should know this. This does not allow for independent moderation or discussion but enables bullying.

Thats ****ing hilarious.

 

[Hong Kong Hawk]

“Two, Four, Six, Eight time for this to escalate”.

I’ll see Your Pell and raise Hitler.

 

[grumbleguts]

“Two, Four, Six, Eight time for this to escalate”.

I’ll see Your Pell and raise Hitler.

And THERE IT IS!!! Godwin's law ftw!!!

 

[Snakelilbandit]

And THERE IT IS!!! Godwin's law ftw!!!

What have the Dees got to do with this?

Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk

 

[savagelunchbox]

Addicts? No

They're generally not very good at focusing on professional sport

Someone who has been found guilty of using drugs? Sure

I've taken any number of illegal drugs. Many times. Not a second thought.

Not once in my post-childhood life has it ever occurred to me to hit/threaten a woman. Not when sober. Not when under the influence. Never.

If you honestly think there is a moral equivalence between what you choose to do to yourself for fun, and bashing a physically weaker person, then...wow

Bashing a woman is not a 'mistake' that anyone could make.

Agreed, but we've recruited some who have sketchy pasts thinking talent was worthy of a second chance. I'm also guessing you came from a positive home environment in your childhood? That's what no one has seemed to factor in. He may have come from a home where violence was prevalent. So it may be easy for most of us to say they'd never hit a woman or anyone for that matter, but it's a totally different story if you've lived your whole life experiencing it and those who did it never got in trouble for it.

In fact we recruited someone in the last 10 years who has beaten a woman and got done for it and they're still not cast aside like this person is because of the colours they wore.

 

[Hong Kong Hawk]

And THERE IT IS!!! Godwin's law ftw!!!

It’s my favourite law and you know it

 

[PT Bar None]

 

[B&GBlood]

Agreed, but we've recruited some who have sketchy pasts thinking talent was worthy of a second chance. I'm also guessing you came from a positive home environment in your childhood? That's what no one has seemed to factor in. He may have come from a home where violence was prevalent. So it may be easy for most of us to say they'd never hit a woman or anyone for that matter, but it's a totally different story if you've lived your whole life experiencing it and those who did it never got in trouble for it.

In fact we recruited someone in the last 10 years who has beaten a woman and got done for it and they're still not cast aside like this person is because of the colours they wore.

Tough lesson for any individual in the situation you describe. However no one lives in absolute isolation from the media, especially the young. You would be hard pressed to find anyone not aware that it is wrong regardless of what their life experience is; normalised yes, but still wrong. If we want VAW to stop, perpetrators must be punished.

Who is this person you refer to? PM

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

Agreed, but we've recruited some who have sketchy pasts thinking talent was worthy of a second chance. I'm also guessing you came from a positive home environment in your childhood? That's what no one has seemed to factor in. He may have come from a home where violence was prevalent. So it may be easy for most of us to say they'd never hit a woman or anyone for that matter, but it's a totally different story if you've lived your whole life experiencing it and those who did it never got in trouble for it.

In fact we recruited someone in the last 10 years who has beaten a woman and got done for it and they're still not cast aside like this person is because of the colours they wore.

its an interesting point re: environmental factors and you gotta learn somehow, often through mistakes, but surely the general shift in attitude toward violence against women in the mainstream media and social media etc. in the past 15-20 years should be education enough for most people regardless of their upbringing

its not like the accused is living under a rock or in a community with minimal social interaction. he's an AFL player (naturally in the media spotlight) who was dating an instagram-famous model. i don't think pleading ignorance is really valid in this instance, but i can see how someone may not completely understand the sheer emotional trauma that kinda thing inflicts on someone until theyve gone through it

i think at 18 mistakes happen and as unforgivable as DV is i think everyone should be given the chance to learn and right their wrongs. but i still think barring him from the AFL, for at least a few years, is the right call while he sorts his shit out. you can only hope that he feels extreme remorse for his actions and puts time into DV activism/something similar having learned how horrible it is.

of course he's under no requirement to do what i arbitrarily suggest is fair retribution so yeah, tough one

 

[Brishawk]

its an interesting point re: environmental factors and you gotta learn somehow, often through mistakes, but surely the general shift in attitude toward violence against women in the mainstream media and social media etc. in the past 15-20 years should be education enough for most people regardless of their upbringing

its not like the accused is living under a rock or in a community with minimal social interaction. he's an AFL player (naturally in the media spotlight) who was dating an instagram-famous model. i don't think pleading ignorance is really valid in this instance, but i can see how someone may not completely understand the sheer emotional trauma that kinda thing inflicts on someone until theyve gone through it

i think at 18 mistakes happen and as unforgivable as DV is i think everyone should be given the chance to learn and right their wrongs. but i still think barring him from the AFL, for at least a few years, is the right call while he sorts his sh*t out. you can only hope that he feels extreme remorse for his actions and puts time into DV activism/something similar having learned how horrible it is.

of course he's under no requirement to do what i arbitrarily suggest is fair retribution so yeah, tough one

It doesn't really work like that. You grow up in violence and you are more likely to be both a victim and a perpetrator. Part of the domestic violence puzzle is that it perpetrators typically have poor problem solving/coping skills. The violence can be a way of trying to take control of things in your life. And it doesn't necessarily start at striking your intimate partner either. Can escalate from seemingly benign actions. Best Taylor seek help and develop the coping skills before he ever thinks about playing football again.

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

It doesn't really work like that. You grow up in violence and you are more likely to be both a victim and a perpetrator. Part of the domestic violence puzzle is that it perpetrators typically have poor problem solving/coping skills. The violence can be a way of trying to take control of things in your life. And it doesn't necessarily start at striking your intimate partner either. Can escalate from seemingly benign actions. Best Taylor seek help and develop the coping skills before he ever thinks about playing football again.

while true, there has to be some sort of breakthrough of anti-violence campaigns because otherwise they're only getting through to people that aren't going to be violent anyway

the likelihood would be higher for people in violence but you would have to think the % of ppl in the vulnerable bracket would be down relative to 20 years ago and substantially so from 60 years ago

and this is all conjecture that Taylor even grew up in a violent household. for all we know it was peaceful, so there's not really much point discussing it on reflection. i think the best play is to just let the judicial system sort it out and as you say hope that Elijah can make a positive change in the community and himself

 

[Gralin]

It doesn't really work like that. You grow up in violence and you are more likely to be both a victim and a perpetrator. Part of the domestic violence puzzle is that it perpetrators typically have poor problem solving/coping skills. The violence can be a way of trying to take control of things in your life. And it doesn't necessarily start at striking your intimate partner either. Can escalate from seemingly benign actions. Best Taylor seek help and develop the coping skills before he ever thinks about playing football again.

The last I heard if you grow up in a house with abuse you are more likely to end up in an abusive relationship yourself as the victim

There doesn't seem to be any correlation between watching one of your parents being abused and becoming an abuser yourself

 

[Brishawk]

The last I heard if you grow up in a house with abuse you are more likely to end up in an abusive relationship yourself as the victim

There doesn't seem to be any correlation between watching one of your parents being abused and becoming an abuser yourself

IT is one of the strongest predictors.

• Being a victim of physical or psychological abuse (consistently one of the strongest predictors of perpetration)

Risk and Protective Factors|Intimate Partner Violence|Violence Prevention|Injury Center|CDC

www.cdc.gov

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Lucky he’s not our problem, eh guys.

 

[Gralin]

IT is one of the strongest predictors.

Risk and Protective Factors|Intimate Partner Violence|Violence Prevention|Injury Center|CDC

www.cdc.gov

Yes but that is not what I said.
I said living in a house where abuse occurs when growing up statistically makes you more likely to be a victim of it as an adult but no more likely to be a perpetrator

That is different to being the direct victim of abuse.

 

[Gralin]

IT is one of the strongest predictors.

Risk and Protective Factors|Intimate Partner Violence|Violence Prevention|Injury Center|CDC

www.cdc.gov

That article is pretty much saying the main factors are the patriarchy, a lot of the items on that list are the same ones on why men commit suicide at a much higher rate than women.

When you look specifically at people that grow up in an IPV household, without the rest of that list it plays out differently

That is a list of why men beat women

 

[Brishawk]

while true, there has to be some sort of breakthrough of anti-violence campaigns because otherwise they're only getting through to people that aren't going to be violent anyway

the likelihood would be higher for people in violence but you would have to think the % of ppl in the vulnerable bracket would be down relative to 20 years ago and substantially so from 60 years ago

and this is all conjecture that Taylor even grew up in a violent household. for all we know it was peaceful, so there's not really much point discussing it on reflection. i think the best play is to just let the judicial system sort it out and as you say hope that Elijah can make a positive change in the community and himself

If you grow up being physically and psychologically abused you are operating in a different reference frame. Likely you wouldn't trust adults and campaigns around domestic violence. If you see violence as deserved or undeserved as opposed to right or wrong, a campaign declaring it wrong probably bounces off you as out of touch. Asserting control of your life or 'correcting' behaviour of your partner isn't a moral choice. Its more like, I tried telling her, I tried yelling at her, I tried threatening her, and now I'll try hitting her. Its an escalation on previous failed attempts to be in control*. You can tell someone who is drowning to swim to shore or they will die but unless they know how to swim, it isn't particularly helpful. The problem isn't so much values as it is being able to deal with problems and confrontations through dialogue and seeking help. That takes intervention. The million dollar question is, how do you intervene before the violence starts?

*Please note, the victim need not have any actual responsibility for the issues at stake for the perpetrator.

 

[Brishawk]

Yes but that is not what I said.
I said living in a house where abuse occurs when growing up statistically makes you more likely to be a victim of it as an adult but no more likely to be a perpetrator

That is different to being the direct victim of abuse.

How do you separate the two? They are going to be highly correlated. There was literally an advertising campaign on this exact thing. I don't have time to write a thesis on this but living in violence leading to increased chances of being victim and perpetrator isn't limited to IPV. Same thing happens for male murder victims.

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

If you grow up being physically and psychologically abused you are operating in a different reference frame. Likely you wouldn't trust adults and campaigns around domestic violence. If you see violence as deserved or undeserved as opposed to right or wrong, a campaign declaring it wrong probably bounces off you as out of touch. Asserting control of your life or 'correcting' behaviour of your partner isn't a moral choice. Its more like, I tried telling her, I tried yelling at her, I tried threatening her, and now I'll try hitting her. Its an escalation on previous failed attempts to be in control*. You can tell someone who is drowning to swim to shore or they will die but unless they know how to swim, it isn't particularly helpful. The problem isn't so much values as it is being able to deal with problems and confrontations through dialogue and seeking help. That takes intervention. The million dollar question is, how do you intervene before the violence starts?

*Please note, the victim need not have any actual responsibility for the issues at stake for the perpetrator.

so generally you are arguing that the anti-violence campaigns are mostly useless to the population most vulnerable to doing it?

perhaps they're more targeted at people either on the fringes, or raising awareness for people that may see signs of it happening around them and report them moreso than the actual perpetrators. makes sense. it's kinda how i see things like the BLM movement from a social scale — racists aren't going to see someone post a black instagram picture and be like '****, i've changed my mind', i guess its more about small societal steps that incrementally add up and eventually result in reform, politically or socially

 

[Brishawk]

That article is pretty much saying the main factors are the patriarchy, a lot of the items on that list are the same ones on why men commit suicide at a much higher rate than women.

When you look specifically at people that grow up in an IPV household, without the rest of that list it plays out differently

That is a list of why men beat women

You are not reading that article right if you think patriarchy explains domestic violence. Control v Trust is the dominant theme. Those who do not trust others seek control of others. And the risk factors around that are communication and coping skills. We develop those skills in environments in which those skills are demonstrated. Hence, the environment in which you grow up is highly predictive of future issues. Patriarchy isn't the cause, it is the symptom.

 

[Brishawk]

so generally you are arguing that the anti-violence campaigns are mostly useless to the population most vulnerable to doing it?

perhaps they're more targeted at people either on the fringes, or raising awareness for people that may see signs of it happening around them and report them moreso than the actual perpetrators. makes sense. it's kinda how i see things like the BLM movement from a social scale — racists aren't going to see someone post a black instagram picture and be like 'fu**, i've changed my mind', i guess its more about small societal steps that incrementally add up and eventually result in reform, politically or socially

The best thing we can do is teach people how to recognise the warning signs of perpetrators as they develop and then give people the skills to have a conversation that facilitates a referral to professional services that can help. IT isn't a foregone conclusion that if you start down the path, you can't get help and get better. This is part of the training provided by White Ribbon. Incidentally, the training provided by White Ribbon stresses a non-judgement conversation. If you tell someone they are being an abusive partner they are likely to shut down and not listen and not seek help. That is the opposite of what needs to happen.

Campaigning has an important role in political recognition. It is the political class that holds the key to putting in place policies (backed by funding) to do something about the issues. When a politician says, 'men have to do better' they are speaking to people who they want to vote for them, not the potential perpetrators. IT is an easy out for them to take no action. There are real policy options available and those need to be funded. Early intervention would be best because repairing a life time of shit and trauma is much harder. But it is also much more difficult to direct the intervention.

 

[Pessimistic]

You are not reading that article right if you think patriarchy explains domestic violence. Control v Trust is the dominant theme. Those who do not trust others seek control of others. And the risk factors around that are communication and coping skills. We develop those skills in environments in which those skills are demonstrated. Hence, the environment in which you grow up is highly predictive of future issues. Patriarchy isn't the cause, it is the symptom.

Sounds right. people can be highly protective of family members etc, but absolute assholes to the same person inside the four walls. Ironically the person's in a lot more danger inside than outside

 

[Beandip]

Normally I like to come to BigFooty for some football updates, blow off some steam and have a chuckle with other members... but I guess we don't do that anymore?