No Oppo Supporters General AFL Discussion #12 - Carlton Posters ONLY!

[Wickzki]

Hawthorn have to be stripped of draft picks and given a massive fine. They just have to.

If it were me I'd go further and strip them of the success they enjoyed during the period. With all of that happening - if substantiated - that period doesn't deserve to be remembered with fondness and celebration.

Unfair to the players who didn't do anything wrong but punish the club.

 

[Aphrodite]

 

[Aphrodite]

‘Still don’t feel like I belong’: Eddie Betts’ heartfelt plea for all clubs to investigate racism after Hawks report

‘Still don’t feel like I belong’: Betts’ heartfelt plea for all clubs to investigate racism

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[Wickzki]

Easy, they don't see people that are different to them as human.

"Those" people are lesser.

I see cases like this and all I can think is that it's projection.

You're different so you must be lesser.

No, you dolt. Accept them because they're people just like you and I, it's you that is lesser.

 

[katmanblue]

Think it will be very difficult for the AFL to sweep this under the carpet but I also think it could develop into the classic he said/she said situation with the named guys denying everything.

I reckon it will be next to impossible for them to stay in footy regardless of what they do or don't admit to.

If we can't have Clarko, no one can!

Muawahahaha.


Not for the reasons we thought.

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[Elmer_Hauser]

Big Nick presenting the Jock Mchale medal to the premiership winning coach on Saturday.

 

[David Sylvian]

The AFL approved the Roos assistance package after negotiations wth the club and Clarkson while in possession of the review! We’re they ignorant to the fallout from the review, believing it was not a significant issue?
Meanwhile Gil and The AFL admin dancing and quaffing champagne at the Brownlow.
Anger is an inadequate word to describe my feelings at the moment.
Not interested in empty words and patronising hand wringing. Unequivocal action and unwavering discipline is required, we await the outcome.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

The AFL approved the Roos assistance package after negotiations wth the club and Clarkson while in possession of the review! We’re they ignorant to the fallout from the review, believing it was not a significant issue?
Meanwhile Gil and The AFL admin dancing and quaffing champagne at the Brownlow.
Anger is an inadequate word to describe my feelings at the moment.
Not interested in empty words and patronising hand wringing. Unequivocal action and unwavering discipline is required, we await the outcome.

To be fair to North Melbourne, they shouldn't be condemned for Clarkson and his allegedly toxic and inhumane behaviour at Carlton.

 

[JoeyPBLUES]

And, commentary suggests that clubs and individuals were contacted for comment by the reporter and nothing availed itself. I get why, what do they gain from getting on the front foot? Significant change is afoot at North and Brisbane.
I hope our house is clean?

Doubtful any house is as clean as it should be including ours. But if something like this came out about our club?? Reckon there’d be a few of us that would burn the membership and never look back.

 

[blue healer]

To be fair to North Melbourne, they shouldn't be condemned for Clarkson and his allegedly toxic and inhumane behaviour at Carlton.

Hoping you got that wrong Elmer

 

[David Sylvian]

To be fair to North Melbourne, they shouldn't be condemned for Clarkson and his allegedly toxic and inhumane behaviour at Carlton.

No problem with nth melb EJ, responsibility at an individual and corporate level required, completely lacking at the moment.

 

[myblueroan]

Doubtful any house is as clean as it should be including ours. But if something like this came out about our club?? Reckon there’d be a few of us that would burn the membership and never look back.

I would not throw the club commitment out with perpetrators.
I would commit to holding the club accountable to change and reconciliation as I'm sure many Hawks supporters will do.

 

[myblueroan]

I like what Francis has to say. I know it isn't for everyone, but it can offer an opportunity for reflection.

 

[Aphrodite]

To be fair to North Melbourne, they shouldn't be condemned for Clarkson and his allegedly toxic and inhumane behaviour at Carlton.

What!

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

What!

Damn, I meant Hawthorn.

Although he did do us wrong and esp Ian Aitken.

 

[RPCB]

These assholes are going to be good for years to come, aren’t they?

 

[Manhattanite]

To be fair to North Melbourne, they shouldn't be condemned for Clarkson and his allegedly toxic and inhumane behaviour at Carlton.

POTY contender?


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[Aphrodite]

POTY contender?


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[Manhattanite]

One thing which has been suggested by many is important to keep in mind.

It seems that the report by Hawthorn had allegations - but mostly from players. The ABC article had allegations - but mostly from players partners and perhaps others. So the AFL was not prepared for the new allegations to come forward as they did not get any advance of that. And those were worse than what the Hawthorn report had in it.

But this important distinction also leaves an opening for the investigation to ultimately conclude that some of the allegations from the ABC article were not in fact true. It will come down to whether the players corroborate what their partner or ex partners said to the ABC.






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[HarryFlashman]

Stolen from a Reddit post ….
Here's what we actually know...
1. The Hawthorn Football Club "engaged external First Nations consultants to liaise with current and former First Nations players and staff to learn more about their experience at the club". As the research was focussed on First Nations experience at the club, the scope did not include broader staff members, including coaches.
2. The report was provided to the Hawthorn Football Club in the past fortnight, and "raised disturbing historical allegations that require further investigation".
3. The AFL Integrity unit was provided a copy of the document with the claims of mistreatment.
4. The ABC conducted it's own investigation into the treatment of First Nations players at the Hawthorn Football Club. This investigation included the independent interviewing of three families of First Nations players from the club.
5. The article raises several claims of mistreatment by former employees of the club: Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Jason Burt. All three named former employees were contacted with detailed questions prior to the article being published. None responded.
6. Journalist Russell Jackson claims that the questions to Fagan were sent to his club email address and 24 hour notice was provided, with a further offer for extra time via phone message, which was not responded to.
7. Following the publishing of the ABC article, the AFL announce an external independent panel that will investigate claims made. The panel will be led by a Kings Counsel, made up of two men and two women, and ensuring First Nations representation.
8. Chris Fagan "will take a leave of absence" from the Brisbane Lions to cooperate with the investigation. Fagan has 'denied the allegations of wrongdoing'.
9. Alastair Clarkson "will delay the start of his tenure" at the North Melbourne Football Club (originally due to start on 1 November) to cooperate with the investigation. He "refutes any allegation of wrongdoing or misconduct".
10. Jason Burt has taken "an indefinite leave of absence from his role as head of coaching and performance sport" at Caufield Grammar. He has not responded to the claims.
11. Andrew Newbold has "taken a leave of absence from the AFL Commission" at the AFL. He was not named in ABC article allegations. He was Hawthorn president from 2012 to 2016.
12. The identity of the First Nations players and staff in both the original report and the ABC article have been deidentified to protect their identities and due to risk of relived trauma.

Here's what we don't know (yet):

1. If the ABC was at any point provided a copy of the original report.
2. If the claims published by the ABC were also made in the original report commissioned by the Hawthorn Football Club.
3. If there are other claims against individuals made by current of former First Nations players and staff contained in the original report commissioned by the Hawthorn Football Club.
4. The timing of the AFL commissioned external independent panel, nor the scope of their investigation or it's panellists.
5. If there are, or will be, further investigations by other organisations (such as WorkSafe Victoria or the Victorian Police).
6. If the claims made in either the original report to Hawthorn or the ABC can be verified by the AFLs external independent panel.

And finally, what we should remember:

1. The ABC article is based on interviews with (a minimum of) six people, each providing their own personal perspective on the players' experiences at the club. Yes, there's always two sides to every story, however that does not change the impact this story has had on them.
2. The judicial system is based on innocent until proven guilty. However, the burden of proof for determining innocence in this matter by the extension independent panel is not that guilt must be proved 'beyond reasonable doubt'. The burden of proof is 'on the balance of probabilities' did these events occur? This is because the AFL investigation is based on administrative law, not criminal law.

 

[KoutaGnome]

One thing which has been suggested by many is important to keep in mind.

It seems that the report by Hawthorn had allegations - but mostly from players. The ABC article had allegations - but mostly from players partners and perhaps others. So the AFL was not prepared for the new allegations to come forward as they did not get any advance of that. And those were worse than what the Hawthorn report had in it.

But this important distinction also leaves an opening for the investigation to ultimately conclude that some of the allegations from the ABC article were not in fact true. It will come down to whether the players corroborate what their partner or ex partners said to the ABC.






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Sorry Manhannite, IMO these women would be well aware of the ramifications of making false allegations against former HFC hierarchy.
These women's allegations will also be corroborated by medical records. GP's don't perform these procedures.
These women didn't take the morning after pill. I'm assuming some of these women already had OBGYn's. You need a referral for these kind of procedures. Occur in specific clinics and hospitals and records are kept. Ditto, if counselling is provided at time.Or post procedure.
Likewise, most women require some form of pain medication post termination. So there would be scripts and records.
More medical records would exist if there's any post procedure issues and/or complications.Such as infections, blood clots, excessive blood loss, etc.

So, this isn't just a case of she said/Clarkson/Fagan/HFC said. There would be medical records, a paper trail and proof to substantiate these ladies claims.
BTW, not having a go.

 

[Blues_1864]

Sorry Manhannite, IMO these women would be well aware of the ramifications of making false allegations against former HFC hierarchy.
These women's allegations will also be corroborated by medical records. GP's don't perform these procedures.
These women didn't take the morning after pill. I'm assuming some of these women already had OBGYn's. You need a referral for these kind of procedures. Occur in specific clinics and hospitals and records are kept. Ditto, if counselling is provided at time.Or post procedure.
Likewise, most women require some form of pain medication post termination. So there would be scripts and records.
More medical records would exist if there's any post procedure issues and/or complications.Such as infections, blood clots, excessive blood loss, etc.

So, this isn't just a case of she said/Clarkson/Fagan/HFC said. There would be medical records, a paper trail and proof to substantiate these ladies claims.
BTW, not having a go.

100%. And Russell Jackson would have pursued that stuff, and satisfied himself that the accounts he was given (and has published) are substantially true. He has significant reputation/credibility in the wake of his recent stories (Robbie Muir and others), and there's no way he's going to risk that on anything that could be a fabrication.

I expect greyer areas of the accounts to be muddied. It wouldn't surprise me to hear counterclaims of abusive/dysfunctional relationships between these players and their partners, or perhaps that player X expressed the wish to the club that he could "better focus on his football without the chaos at home". The accused will then suggest that they were helping X carry out his own wishes. In that sense, the statements of the players themselves will be pivotal, and the fact that they seem to have largely gone along with what the coaches wanted them to do, might significantly reduce the culpability of the accused individuals.

I don't like it - not in the slightest - but without a breach of the law (I'm no expert!), I doubt this episode ends the career of any powerful man. But that itself will be an indictment on "the system", and the AFL community's shameful tolerance of abuses of power, as long as we personally are not the ones being abused.

 

[DangerousD]

Fox has an obligation to Eddie to moderate comments on these videos. It’s unfair that he is subject to even more racist bile.

Comments had been turned off, but the amount of people now viewing him as a whiner, complainer, sook, is just concerning not only for Eddie but the state of common peoples views.

 

[sbwan]

2. The judicial system is based on innocent until proven guilty. However, the burden of proof for determining innocence in this matter by the extension independent panel is not that guilt must be proved 'beyond reasonable doubt'. The burden of proof is 'on the balance of probabilities' did these events occur? This is because the AFL investigation is based on administrative law, not criminal law.

The standard for AFL Disciplinary Matters is 'comfortable satisfaction', which is somewhere between balance of probabilities and beyond reasonable doubt (and shifts depending on the seriousness of the allegations).

 

[KnaveyBlue]

Anyone watching AFL360? Slobbo is even more drunk than usual