Gillard ends discriminatory asylum policy Part II

[Pessimistic]

Mary Poppins 'fantasy land'

I'm not saying don't manage it.

Govts of all sides have been doing that for decades

Just don't be an ass on the issue for political gain

 

[Malifice]

Why, there is zero economic modelling on what it'll cost us to increase to those ridiculous numbers. We know after 5 years 80%+ of refugee families rely on welfare for income. Why isnt there any debate how this shit is paid for and real costs? All we hear is increase dole payments, more hospitals, more money for schools. more min wage, more refugees - more taxes, higher wages to cover the costs, less competitive globally less jobs. Or just third world ourselves like many want to and work of $3 an hour as they do. Guess that takes care of the welfare, how to pay for it issue...... we wont be. anh far better to pluck figures out our arse based off the warm and fuzzy meter.

You think increasing our refugee intake from 13.5k to 20k per year (for a nation with a population of 22 million) is exessive?

Wow.

Also, WTF with us becoming a 'third world nation' and these weid calls to 'the good old days'?

As it stands today your average Aussie has literally the highest median standard of living in the history of human existence. Your average middle class bogan family have a 3-4 bedroom Mcmansion with a home theatre set, plasma screen telly and can afford frequent contiki tours to Europe/ bali piss trips, 2 cars in the driveway, a pool and dog.

But dont let facts like that slow you down.

 

[bombermick]

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/public...ivic-contributions-about-the-research2011.pdf

It's very long but basically first-generation refugees are a massive drain, but the second generation provide a lot more value than locals. Makes perfect sense to anybody who sees what ethnicity most of our doctors/dentists are.

 

[Malifice]

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/public...ivic-contributions-about-the-research2011.pdf

It's very long but basically first-generation refugees are a massive drain, but the second generation provide a lot more value than locals. Makes perfect sense to anybody who sees what ethnicity most of our doctors/dentists are.

Indeed. Vietnamese Australians (and we took some 100,000 of them as refugees when the population of Australia was half what it is now) are making solid contributions to Australian society.

As a % of migration vs population we have historically accepted more than 20,000 refugees P/A in the past.

We took a lot of Refugees post WW2 from Southern Europe as well:

Hundreds of thousands of displaced Europeans immigrated to Australia with more than three million people immigrating from Europe during the late 1940s till the 1960s.

The Australian government assisted many of the refugees, such as helping them find work (due to an expanding economy and major infrastructure projects, the Snowy Mountains Scheme being the most famous).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_history_of_Australia

11 million people had survived the Nazi labour and concentration camps and many, particularly Poles, Yugoslavs, Latvians, Ukrainians and Hungarians, were unable or unwilling to return home. Visiting Europe in 1947, Calwell therefore agreed to accept a minimum of 12,000 of these refugees a year.
On 28 November 1947, the first Displaced Persons – 844 young Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians – arrived on the General Heintzelman in Melbourne and were transferred to Bonegilla migration hostel. In exchange for free passage and assistance on their arrival, they agreed to work for the government for two years.

During the seven years this scheme operated, nearly 171,000 arrived. When this source came to an end, the Federal Government negotiated a series of migration agreements including with the Netherlands and Italy (1951), Austria, Belgium, West Germany, Greece and Spain (1952), and the United States, Switzerland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland (1954). In these immediate post war years Australia was second only to Israel in the proportion of migrants accepted. As a result, Australian society became markedly less British and Irish in character. At the 1961 census, eight per cent of the population was non-British in origin with the largest group being Italians followed by Germans, Greeks and Poles.

http://www.migrationheritage.nsw.gov.au/belongings/about-belongings/australias-migration-history/

Bear in mind, our population was only around 6 million at this time as well. 12,000 per year into 6 million vs 20,000 per year into 22 million. Per capita, thats a refugee intake of around 40,000 in adjusted figures.

Can someone explain to me how accepting hundreds of thousands of these Vietnamese/ Greek/ Italian/ Jewish/ Poles/ Yugolsav refugees hurt our economy?

Names like Kekovech, Koutafides, Dorotich, Silvagni, Jakovich, Jesalenko etc are accepted as 'Aussie' without blinking an eye.

Compare to the emergence of Houli's, Saads, Daws and so on coming through in the 21st century.

 

[bombermick]

At the risk of opening a can of worms will recent arrivals have a similar impact as the Vietnamese and others though? To me they generally do not study as hard and are not as entrepreneurial.

Racist? Perhaps.

 

[Malifice]

At the risk of opening a can of worms will recent arrivals have a similar impact as the Vietnamese and others though? To me they generally do not study as hard and are not as entrepreneurial.

Racist? Perhaps.

Clearly racist.

Vietnamese people were all 'criminals and lazy and formed ghettoes didnt assimilate' either (ask Pauline Hanson).

Before them it was the Greeks, Lebs, Slavs and Italians ('Wogs') that were all criminals and lazy and formed ghettoes didnt assimilate.

Before them it was the Irish.

And so on.

New migrants groups (particularly those from poor nations, and even more so those that are refugees and dont share a common language and cultural reference) take longer (generally) to assimilate into society, and face a harder time doing so (its a multi generational thing).

Christ even here in the UK, Aussies form Ghettoes, live together and dont assimilate - see Clapham and Shepherd Bush (and Walkabout bars) for more info. Im sure if I stay here, my children would be alot more British than I am, and so on.

It just takes time.

 

[Upton Sinclair]

To me they generally do not study as hard and are not as entrepreneurial.

Interesting observation. And what experience do you have studying/doing business with Sri Lankan/Afghani refugees that allows you to draw such a conclusion?

 

[bombermick]

Fair enough, I knew it wouldn't be a popular opinion. We'll see what happens in the next generation - hopefully I'm proven wrong and Melbourne High is filled with Sudanese and Iraqis.

The Afghans are already doing pretty well, opening a lot of their bakeries.

 

[Malifice]

Fair enough, I knew it wouldn't be a popular opinion. We'll see what happens in the next generation - hopefully I'm proven wrong and Melbourne High is filled with Sudanese and Iraqis.

The Afghans are already doing pretty well, opening a lot of their bakeries.

It takes time. And the process can be speeded up with policies that help new migrant arrivals (including refugees) assimilate. Programs such as welfare, free langugage courses, access to schooling, housing etc.

Even little things like prayer rooms in AFL grounds and pushing into new migrant markets (West Sydney) can have an effect - increased participation and attendance at the Footy leads to the acceptance of an Australian cultural phenomenon (Aussie rules). Parents start taking kids to Auskick and in a sinlge generation you have people identifying more as 'Australian' than the parent culture.

Of course, a lot of that good work is undone when these people cop constant negative stereotypes and are labelled non stop in a negative way.

The best way to foster assimilation is by being tolerant and setting an example, thus letting the choice to assimilate become a no-brainer rather than making the choice an 'us vs them' mentality.

Same deal with things like the Burqa. You can force new migrants not to wear it (and they'll resent you, and it just drives further division in the community), or you can give them a choice. Its no surprise that after a few generations, many Islamic women in tolerant western societies forgo the thing for less restrictive ways of showing thier faith, even ditching the Niqab entirely.

Tolerance and a fair go will win more hearts and minds than prejudice and 'othering'.

You cant lead a horse to water, but a thirsty horse will go and drink the water itself.

 

[Gough]

Any refugee that shows genuine talent bowling over the wrist spin is to be fast tracked to citizenship immediately.

 

[bombermick]

Good post, Malifice.

Previous groups like the Greeks and Vietnamese had their troubles, but they came from relatively similar cultures.

The challenge in the Sudanese community in particular is much more challenging and will need a lot more government help and a lot more time. I have my doubts they'll be the success other arrivals were, but I would love to be wrong.

 

[Malifice]

The challenge in the Sudanese community in particular is much more challenging and will need a lot more government help and a lot more time. I have my doubts they'll be the success other arrivals were, but I would love to be wrong.

They are coming from an extremely poor country with a long history of conflict. This is in addition to language and cultural barriers (and to be fair, a little racism from those already here). It'll take more time for them to assimilate than someone coming from say the USA or the UK would (or even from Southern or Eastern Europe, India or Japan/ China).

Those blokes arent even coming from a position of simply starting from scratch, they have other problems to contend with as well (language and cultural barriers which leads to even poorer health, crime, education, employment and so on). It can become a nasty cycle pretty darn quick.

Unless we want those problems entrenched, we should be doing everything we reasonably can to remove those barriers and help them integrate into society.

But thats a topic for a different thread.

 

[Pessimistic]

The middle east, along with China, were civilised when we were all still chasing wolves through the forests of europe

Or more correctly, our ancestors

 

[PottSie2]

The middle east, along with China, were civilised when we were all still chasing wolves through the forests of europe

Or more correctly, our ancestors

Thanks for making the progress of modern Western Nations with Christian influences even more historic.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/public...ivic-contributions-about-the-research2011.pdf

It's very long but basically first-generation refugees are a massive drain, but the second generation provide a lot more value than locals. Makes perfect sense to anybody who sees what ethnicity most of our doctors/dentists are.

Most of the doctors and the couple of dentists I've been to over the past couple of years aren't second generation, they've been poached from overseas, typically India and Sri Lanka.

 

[R00StaR]

So we just throw more money at it, great. We cant even create grass root manufacturing jobs, farmers suicide not being able to make ends meet. We'll just have service industry jobs servicing people on welfare! We cant increase dole (in the news of late), our hospitals are at breaking point, schools run down ect. Yet build a town the size of Ballarat every 5 years and pay 80% the residence their income..... sure no problems. We'll just plant some more money trees. Fuzzy feel good pluck some numbers from out butts economics at work.

The world is very different now, China and other super low income countries are eating up the manufacturing jobs. And Islam... what history has it with assimilating? Worked out great for India, now there India and Pakistan - 20 Indians dragged off a bus in the last week or 2 and executed.

Some, small numbers works out long term, ive no problem with that. 20,000 refugees for a country like ours is way too much imo, id much rather see some real numbers on costs/ benefits ect.

The new case against immigration - Mark Krikorian



Mark Steyn on multiculturalism

 

[Giants FC]

Most of the doctors and the couple of dentists I've been to over the past couple of years aren't second generation, they've been poached from overseas, typically India and Sri Lanka.

They aren't refugees. Indian and Sri Lankan doctors can get in as skilled migrants.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

They aren't refugees. Indian and Sri Lankan doctors can get in as skilled migrants.

I know. I didn't post that they were, hence the word poached. I was questioning the poster's assertion that 'most' of our doctors and dentists are from second generation Aussie stock.

If anyone else has ever been to the Goulburn Valley Base Hospital in Shepparton, Victoria, you could add first generation Middle Eastern to the Indians and Sri Lankans too.

 

[Malifice]

So we just throw more money at it, great. We cant even create grass root manufacturing jobs, farmers suicide not being able to make ends meet.

This is your rebuttal of my post?

The farmers are gonna kill themselves thanks to the Muslims?

Complete ignorance of the fact that we've been shipping in refugees at much higher numbers than currently for over 70 years and we are a richer and more vibrant country because of it?

Those few thousand reffos gonna take our jobs and ruin our economy, and cause crops to fail, and farmers to kill themselves, and our society to implode and global warming derp.

 

[bombermick]

So our manufacturers can't compete because we have too many refugees? Dear god ...

My current GP and dentist are second and first-generation. See more second generation in such jobs of course.

And whether Islam assimilates or not is irrelevant to Australia. We don't have the levels of Islamic immigration that European countries do and we don't have Islamic ghettos.

Pess - that just makes the fall of the Middle East even sadder ...

 

[PottSie2]

So our manufacturers can't compete because we have too many refugees? Dear god ...

My current GP and dentist are second and first-generation. See more second generation in such jobs of course.

And whether Islam assimilates or not is irrelevant to Australia. We don't have the levels of Islamic immigration that European countries do and we don't have Islamic ghettos.

Pess - that just makes the fall of the Middle East even sadder ...

They are already forming. Take some tips to the north, north west of Melbourne.

 

[Malifice]

They are already forming. Take some tips to the north, north west of Melbourne.

Like those Irish ghettoes, Vietnamese Ghettoes, Italian ghettoes and so on before them.

You dont get it do you?

 

[bombermick]

They are already forming. Take some tips to the north, north west of Melbourne.

It's nothing like what's reported in Europe.

If it becomes a problem throw political correctness out the window, but it's never been a problem here.

The Vietnamese still have not largely moved out of Springvale and Footscray, yet there's very little social ills as a result.

 

[Malifice]

Anyways, this is a thread on Asylum seekers, not 'Muslims'.

I assume those in here that support these laws, would also support them being enacted on White Christian types should say... the Germans have another crack at Europe.

Actually I assume that most would want the laws repealed and would allow these white kids and families to stay in their homes.

But nah, got nothing to do with it.

 

[bombermick]

You mean like those pesky Kiwis?