Review Grand Final, 2023 - Collingwood vs. Brisbane Lions

[Warwick]

Haven’t been able to come back here. Or read any media. May be a while.

 

[lionsrules]

That one really hurts. 20 years and still waiting and wondering when the next shot is.
Imagine being a Sydney fan and copping 2014, 2016 and 2022. I don’t know how they do it.

 

[JasRulz63]

That one really hurts. 20 years and still waiting and wondering when the next shot is.
Imagine being a Sydney fan and copping 2014, 2016 and 2022. I don’t know how they do it.

2012 not being in the too distant past probably helps.

 

[martinson]

First post since the game, that one hurt.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but looking back we may have benefited from Lyons starting with either Fletcher or Ah Chee as the sub.

A few things on the Pies which we need to learn from.

They are exceptionally fit and relentless runners. Their scoring late the quarter killed us, especially the 2 goals after the siren. I think this is reflective of their fitness but also their ability to maintain their concentration and focus, we can be hot and cold within games - we need to get this out of our system.

They also have a great ability to get in front and defend a small lead. In part I think this is because they congest the area around the ball and the opposition’s forward line, they then defend and pressure manically waiting for the fast break that they can make into the vacant area in their half of the ground. In some ways their ability to congest and control a game with a small lead is similar to how the Swans played under Roos.

They can also respond very quickly with one or two goals of their own when an opponent gets within striking range.

Part of me wonders to what extent Collingwood out coached us, with assistants that include Leppa and Bolton you know that they have a significant coaching arsenal. Would like to see us bring in an ex senior coach as an assistant.

Anyways, time heals all wounds.

There have been some comments passed that were heard on the field that Collingwood had 3 gameplans and switched things around according to the circumstances or situations in the game that players found themselves in. We weren't as flexible.

It was still only 4 points but maybe a bit more creativity in the coaching might assist. I know Fagan is a stickler for the one system and repeating it. It's got us to where we are I suppose.

 

[BRAB]

There have been some comments passed that were heard on the field that Collingwood had 3 gameplans and switched things around according to the circumstances or situations in the game that players found themselves in. We weren't as flexible.

It was still only 4 points but maybe a bit more creativity in the coaching might assist. I know Fagan is a stickler for the one system and repeating it. It's got us to where we are I suppose.

Collingwood have the ability to attract some pretty great coaches to expand their ideas as well. When you look at their line coaches compared to ours the difference is pretty shocking. Multiple great coaches from different systems would surely help a lot.

If we could get this list playing the stringent, system based footy that Collingwood do I think we'd do pretty well. Lots of work to do in the off season to go to that next level.

 

[martinson]

Collingwood have the ability to attract some pretty great coaches to expand their ideas as well. When you look at their line coaches compared to ours the difference is pretty shocking. Multiple great coaches from different systems would surely help a lot.

If we could get this list playing the stringent, system based footy that Collingwood do I think we'd do pretty well. Lots of work to do in the off season to go to that next level.

I totally agree.

And I say that without any knock on any of our coaches who work really hard and are good at what they do.

But if you're Collingwood you have the capacity to attract a range of experienced coaches who go there for reasons above and beyond a pay packet with all the trimmings that we can't afford.

All things considered it's an awesome effort for a club such as ours to attract top quality players and be so competitive with the behemoths.

 

[martinson]

Respectfully, I would think a teacher would understand learning and development is not linear. I wish it were - but it is just not reality.

So true.

Prodigies and other blessed people learn and develop quickly.

Others take time and often never do.

Those that fall into the latter keep making the same mistakes.

You look at an Ashcroft or a Daicos who already instinctively seem to know it all and what to do and their DNA just can't be taught. They will still face the same hurdles everyone faces.

The vast majority need experience and hard knocks to get to their prime level. That's before you work out whether they have the ability.

 

[Nunez]

Collingwood have the ability to attract some pretty great coaches to expand their ideas as well. When you look at their line coaches compared to ours the difference is pretty shocking. Multiple great coaches from different systems would surely help a lot.

If we could get this list playing the stringent, system based footy that Collingwood do I think we'd do pretty well. Lots of work to do in the off season to go to that next level.

I don't really buy into this belief tbh. Sure, having access to local coaches would help. That said, like players, coaches want to go into winning teams and learn from great coaches and administrations. Assistants get well compensated for their work which absolutely makes it an attractive proposition for any aspiring coach.

Further to this, I guarantee we have had interest from the supposed 'elite' line coaches. Hr have turned them down as we have coaches that we rate.

That's not to say we shouldn't review our assistants and whether or not we want to add some fresh eyes in that regard, but if we want a new line coach in any area I promise you we will have some high calibre applicants.

 

[Mr Ripper]

Outsiders grading line coaches is pure folly.

 

[BRAB]

I don't really buy into this belief tbh. Sure, having access to local coaches would help. That said, like players, coaches want to go into winning teams and learn from great coaches and administrations. Assistants get well compensated for their work which absolutely makes it an attractive proposition for any aspiring coach.

Further to this, I guarantee we have had interest from the supposed 'elite' line coaches. Hr have turned them down as we have coaches that we rate.

That's not to say we shouldn't review our assistants and whether or not we want to add some fresh eyes in that regard, but if we want a new line coach in any area I promise you we will have some high calibre applicants.

I am honestly shocked that we’ve had big name coaches ask to come up to be line coaches at Brisbane and we’ve turned them down, but I’m pretty sure you’d know so I’m not saying it isn’t true.

If another one knocks on the door I sincerely hope we answer it because I think new voices are needed and should be welcomed.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Respectfully, I would think a teacher would understand learning and development is not linear. I wish it were - but it is just not reality.

It’s not linear, but it is sequential. Once acquired, a set of skills or understandings enable students to then apply their knowledge in ways that lead to deeper or more complex understandings or performance. It is why schools spend so much time working on Developmental Rubrics.

The issue with Cam Rayner, is that he appears to be able to perform at a certain standard, which would indicate a certain level of development, but he struggles to consolidate at that level. He certainly struggles when it comes to applying the skills he has acquired in ways that indicate further development and capacity. This is why his average disposal numbers have stagnated at around 11.5 - 12.5 disposals a game. It is clear that Rayner knows how to get the ball, but he can’t take that to the next level by getting more of it consistently. This is connected with his level of fitness, running capacity and ability to operate at a heightened level for more than short bursts. These are areas that could be addressed through training, especially pre-season training, but it appears they haven’t been.

To make matters more frustrating, not only does Cam Rayner, after six seasons appear to have plateaued in terms of sequential improvement, often he goes backwards. This is what happened in the Grand Final and it has happened in other big games. For example, in our Round 18 loss to Melbourne at the MCG this year, Rayner had 8 disposals for the game:
3 in the First Quarter
0 in the Second Quarter
3 in the Third Quarter
2 in the Fourth Quarter
In this game, in many others, and in the Grand Final, Rayner demonstrates a distinct lack of capacity, because the idea that he is sequentially building his skills is completely unsupported by the evidence.
If it were just the odd game you wouldn’t worry, because people have bad days, but this is an established pattern.

So after six years the Cam Rayner ‘Excuse Loop’ keeps spinning and we find new ways to excuse erratic form and costly failures to perform. Sadly, we also do so in a ‘consequence free zone’ for Cam. As I said in another post, we will be having the same conversation for the next however many years, unless someone in the football department actually tries a new approach. David Parkin was one of the great coaches of the modern era and he would have sorted this issue out long ago. After Rayner’s complete non performance in the Grand Final, Parkin would have subjected Rayner to the MOTHER OF ALL PRESEASONS, which is exactly what Fagan needs to do.

 

[martinson]

I am honestly shocked that we’ve had big name coaches ask to come up to be line coaches at Brisbane and we’ve turned them down, but I’m pretty sure you’d know so I’m not saying it isn’t true.

If another one knocks on the door I sincerely hope we answer it because I think new voices are needed and should be welcomed.

You know some people in footy have the nickname 'Kremlin ' don't you.

 

[Nunez]

I am honestly shocked that we’ve had big name coaches ask to come up to be line coaches at Brisbane and we’ve turned them down, but I’m pretty sure you’d know so I’m not saying it isn’t true.

If another one knocks on the door I sincerely hope we answer it because I think new voices are needed and should be welcomed.

Does the name Jack Gunston mean anything to you? On field coach of the year!!!

 

[martinson]

It’s not linear, but it is sequential. Once acquired, a set of skills or understandings enable students to then apply their knowledge in ways that lead to deeper or more complex understandings or performance. It is why schools spend so much time working on Developmental Rubrics.

The issue with Cam Rayner, is that he appears to be able to perform at a certain standard, which would indicate a certain level of development, but he struggles to consolidate at that level. He certainly struggles when it comes to applying the skills he has acquired in ways that indicate further development and capacity. This is why his average disposal numbers have stagnated at around 11.5 - 12.5 disposals a game. It is clear that Rayner knows how to get the ball, but he can’t take that to the next level by getting more of it consistently. This is connected with his level of fitness, running capacity and ability to operate at a heightened level for more than short bursts. These are areas that could be addressed through training, especially pre-season training, but it appears they haven’t been.

To make matters more frustrating, not only does Cam Rayner, after six seasons appear to have plateaued in terms of sequential improvement, often he goes backwards. This is what happened in the Grand Final and it has happened in other big games. For example, in our Round 18 loss to Melbourne at the MCG this year, Rayner had 8 disposals for the game:
3 in the First Quarter
0 in the Second Quarter
3 in the Third Quarter
2 in the Fourth Quarter
In this game, in many others, and in the Grand Final, Rayner demonstrates a distinct lack of capacity, because the idea that he is sequentially building his skills is completely unsupported by the evidence.
If it were just the odd game you wouldn’t worry, because people have bad days, but this is an established pattern.

So after six years the Cam Rayner ‘Excuse Loop’ keeps spinning and we find new ways to excuse erratic form and costly failures to perform. Sadly, we also do so in a ‘consequence free zone’ for Cam. As I said in another post, we will be having the same conversation for the next however many years, unless someone in the football department actually tries a new approach. David Parkin was one of the great coaches of the modern era and he would have sorted this issue out long ago. After Rayner’s complete non performance in the Grand Final, Parkin would have subjected Rayner to the MOTHER OF ALL PRESEASONS, which is exactly what Fagan needs to do.

Lol.

I don't want to knock Cam again because he's a great guy and just learning about life.

But that was a fantastic post 3KZ. We've mollycoddled him too much . That I know. Throwing him in the back half at the end of quarters ,well we didn't think they'd do it again after the first quarter schemozzle but we're stubborn aren't we.

I'm half with Nunez in that he will learn and get better but some tough love is required. He has the intestinal aptitude which he showed in his dedication to recovery from the ACL.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Lol.

I don't want to knock Cam again because he's a great guy and just learning about life.

But that was a fantastic post 3KZ. We've mollycoddled him too much . That I know. Throwing him in the back half at the end of quarters ,well we didn't think they'd do it again after the first quarter schemozzle but we're stubborn aren't we.

I'm half with Nunez in that he will learn and get better but some tough love is required. He has the intestinal aptitude which he showed in his dedication to recovery from the ACL.

Seriously, you are old enough to remember, but imagine how Parkin would have managed him.

 

[martinson]

Seriously, you are old enough to remember, but imagine how Parkin would have managed him.

I suppose it's a different era now and were dealing with a different Gen.

But yeah. It would have been a love to be a fly on the wall end of year review.

 

[BRAB]

Seriously, you are old enough to remember, but imagine how Parkin would have managed him.

It is 2023 3KZ and the standards are significantly higher now. All players are fit now and the impacts of a big off season won’t be as immediate as the 80’s when footy was played at the standard of a modern QAFL game.

The Broadbeach Cats would go through undefeated if you transferred them to the 80’s.

 

[western royboy]

Rewatched the game which was difficult but necessary as there were sone players I hardly noticed.

Collingwood had a much more even effort from its midfield and ultimately that got them over the line. There have been some excellent posts on this thread that have identified many areas of improvement.

Ultimately to get better it comes down to 1%’ers. Oleg Markov

37

Oleg Markov

Age

28

Ht

188cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.1

3star

K

8.4

3star

HB

4.8

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.4

3star

MG

228.8

4star

No current season stats available

D

15.4

4star

K

11.2

4star

HB

4.2

4star

M

6.0

5star

T

2.0

4star

MG

295.2

5star

ended up at Collingwood because of a relationship with Fly. Total sliding doors moment. Was he any good on Saturday? He did his job.

The whole finals series was relatively close and the top 8 hotly contested. The AFL goal is to have everyone win 11 games and sort it out on % - they get closer every year to getting what they want. The gaps between each side are now so small.

So to take/make the jump we obviously need growth from within but those 1% are now crucial - I reckon we are entering the moneyball era - we need to ensure we have enough space for any 1% that catch our eye

 

[Mr Ripper]

It is 2023 3KZ and the standards are significantly higher now. All players are fit now and the impacts of a big off season won’t be as immediate as the 80’s when footy was played at the standard of a modern QAFL game.

The Broadbeach Cats would go through undefeated if you transferred them to the 80’s.

ROFLMAO

 

[The Flying Belgian]

There are plastic screw in studs, they don’t only come in metal. But they’re longer and much more stable than the s**t made-for-soccer moulded stuff that doesn’t provide you any more traction than an old pair of thongs.

I realise that. I played in them mostly. And they were far harder to run decent distances in than moulded. I would take moulded any day of the week (unless that day had been pissing down).

 

[Chezz]

My two cents from Saturday:

Great effort from our guys to get so close. To be honest in general play they looked better, especially through the midfield. Still I’m devastated in that I feel we let one slip.

Outside of manning up Hill, we defended well. Elliot and Mihocek and Ginnivan didn’t get near it, so credit to the defensive unit as a whole.

We looked good again when we ran the ball from half back. Resulted in a number of easy goals over the back.

I don’t understand the Rayner carry on tbh. He had a very poor game and is inconsistent but he showed earlier in the finals he’s a match winner. Part of it is on the coaches to find his best spot and back him in.

Daniher was unbelievable again, and is completely carrying the forward line. Some of Baileys goals and general play were brilliant and like Rayner, the biggest thing for him is to become more consistent. His best is near unstoppable. McLuggage (great last 3 quarters) and Coleman (great first half), played well for large parts too.

Ashcroft will be a big in late next season and you know he’ll do everything right to get back at full fitness. Dev would be a huge loss as he brings the intense defensive pressure a number of our others guys lack. His skills are nowhere near as bad as some make out either.

Negatives: He might be a great club man, but Berry had an absolute howler. The 2 cheap 50s, conceding the opening goal with a nothing high tap and numerous turnovers costing goals. Add in that he can’t tackle with his bung shoulders. I’m sorry but he’s not AFL standard and I have been saying this for a while. Hipwood was poor but at least provided a contest down the line on a number of occasions.

Lester and Starcevich lowered their colours to Hill. Lester has had a brilliant season, but does get exposed on faster opponents. Lyons was still getting shown up defensively from the late centre clearances. Three pies were running to goal when De Goey got that late one. For the sub I would have subbed Berry (not Ah Chee) and moved Ah Chee to the wing.

All in all a great season, but with the hot weather and more exposure to those type of conditions I feel this GF was one we’ve let slip.

 

[Paul Mac]

So fascinating listening to Fly Mcrae on AFL 360 tonight. The comment that really got in my head was the game the Pies against the Saints at Adelaide oval when the Pies won but Fly commented to the players that we should have lost. Mainly because we should have wasted time in certain circumstances but we played on quickly or done things quickly where we should have taken 40 seconds off the clock at certain times but should have been a free kick to the saints in a ruck dual with 0.1 seconds left. Fly's comment was we should not be playing this last 40 seconds , we should have taken time off the clock. This is something i hope we try and nail down as this happened with us in the first quarter. Need to rewatch our game again as have not got myself to watch again but we seemed to play on way to quickly late in that first quarter in our back pocket. Such a great listen he was.

 

[BuntonRules]

Seriously, you are old enough to remember, but imagine how Parkin would have managed him.

Give him to Robert Walls.

 

[western royboy]

I realise that. I played in them mostly. And they were far harder to run decent distances in than moulded. I would take moulded any day of the week (unless that day had been pissing down).

I think most of the slips occurred on the painted logos - I reckon the number of players that used screw ins on Saturday was zero

 

[LionKing]

So fascinating listening to Fly Macrae on AFL 360 tonight. The comment that really got in my head was the game the Pies against the Saints at Adelaide oval when the Pies won but Fly commented to the players that we should have lost. Mainly because we should have wasted time in certain circumstances but we played on quickly or done things quickly where we should have taken 40 seconds off the clock at certain times but should have been a free kick to the saints in a ruck dual with 0.1 seconds left. Fly's comment was we should not be playing this last 40 seconds , we should have taken time off the clock. This is something i hope we try and nail down as this happened with us in the first quarter. Need to rewatch our game again as have not got myself to watch again but we seemed to play on way to quickly late in that first quarter in our back pocket. Such a great listen he was.

Yep great insight from Fly on AFL360. These comments also from his press conference really resonated with me, especially his comment about the last 4 minutes.

“You lose a prelim final by a point and you have to get better. Competition has already improved. We had to bring more depth into our list”.

“Games come down to moments…little things win big games - that’s been our story”.

“I know last year everyone thought it was a bit of a fluke (winning all the close games) … we’re pretty good at these clutch moments,” McRae smiled.

“We’ve got such belief in that last four minutes that no one’s scoring – not us or the opposition”.