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Review Grand Final, 2023 - Collingwood vs. Brisbane Lions

Who were your five best players against Collingwood?


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It’s not linear, but it is sequential. Once acquired, a set of skills or understandings enable students to then apply their knowledge in ways that lead to deeper or more complex understandings or performance. It is why schools spend so much time working on Developmental Rubrics.

The issue with Cam Rayner, is that he appears to be able to perform at a certain standard, which would indicate a certain level of development, but he struggles to consolidate at that level. He certainly struggles when it comes to applying the skills he has acquired in ways that indicate further development and capacity. This is why his average disposal numbers have stagnated at around 11.5 - 12.5 disposals a game. It is clear that Rayner knows how to get the ball, but he can’t take that to the next level by getting more of it consistently. This is connected with his level of fitness, running capacity and ability to operate at a heightened level for more than short bursts. These are areas that could be addressed through training, especially pre-season training, but it appears they haven’t been.

To make matters more frustrating, not only does Cam Rayner, after six seasons appear to have plateaued in terms of sequential improvement, often he goes backwards. This is what happened in the Grand Final and it has happened in other big games. For example, in our Round 18 loss to Melbourne at the MCG this year, Rayner had 8 disposals for the game:
3 in the First Quarter
0 in the Second Quarter
3 in the Third Quarter
2 in the Fourth Quarter
In this game, in many others, and in the Grand Final, Rayner demonstrates a distinct lack of capacity, because the idea that he is sequentially building his skills is completely unsupported by the evidence.
If it were just the odd game you wouldn’t worry, because people have bad days, but this is an established pattern.

So after six years the Cam Rayner ‘Excuse Loop’ keeps spinning and we find new ways to excuse erratic form and costly failures to perform. Sadly, we also do so in a ‘consequence free zone’ for Cam. As I said in another post, we will be having the same conversation for the next however many years, unless someone in the football department actually tries a new approach. David Parkin was one of the great coaches of the modern era and he would have sorted this issue out long ago. After Rayner’s complete non performance in the Grand Final, Parkin would have subjected Rayner to the MOTHER OF ALL PRESEASONS, which is exactly what Fagan needs to do.
Lol.

I don't want to knock Cam again because he's a great guy and just learning about life.

But that was a fantastic post 3KZ. We've mollycoddled him too much . That I know. Throwing him in the back half at the end of quarters ,well we didn't think they'd do it again after the first quarter schemozzle but we're stubborn aren't we.

I'm half with Nunez in that he will learn and get better but some tough love is required. He has the intestinal aptitude which he showed in his dedication to recovery from the ACL.
 
Lol.

I don't want to knock Cam again because he's a great guy and just learning about life.

But that was a fantastic post 3KZ. We've mollycoddled him too much . That I know. Throwing him in the back half at the end of quarters ,well we didn't think they'd do it again after the first quarter schemozzle but we're stubborn aren't we.

I'm half with Nunez in that he will learn and get better but some tough love is required. He has the intestinal aptitude which he showed in his dedication to recovery from the ACL.
Seriously, you are old enough to remember, but imagine how Parkin would have managed him.
 
Seriously, you are old enough to remember, but imagine how Parkin would have managed him.

It is 2023 3KZ and the standards are significantly higher now. All players are fit now and the impacts of a big off season won’t be as immediate as the 80’s when footy was played at the standard of a modern QAFL game.

The Broadbeach Cats would go through undefeated if you transferred them to the 80’s.
 

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Rewatched the game which was difficult but necessary as there were sone players I hardly noticed.

Collingwood had a much more even effort from its midfield and ultimately that got them over the line. There have been some excellent posts on this thread that have identified many areas of improvement.

Ultimately to get better it comes down to 1%’ers. Oleg Markov ended up at Collingwood because of a relationship with Fly. Total sliding doors moment. Was he any good on Saturday? He did his job.

The whole finals series was relatively close and the top 8 hotly contested. The AFL goal is to have everyone win 11 games and sort it out on % - they get closer every year to getting what they want. The gaps between each side are now so small.

So to take/make the jump we obviously need growth from within but those 1% are now crucial - I reckon we are entering the moneyball era - we need to ensure we have enough space for any 1% that catch our eye
 
It is 2023 3KZ and the standards are significantly higher now. All players are fit now and the impacts of a big off season won’t be as immediate as the 80’s when footy was played at the standard of a modern QAFL game.

The Broadbeach Cats would go through undefeated if you transferred them to the 80’s.
ROFLMAO
 
There are plastic screw in studs, they don’t only come in metal. But they’re longer and much more stable than the s**t made-for-soccer moulded stuff that doesn’t provide you any more traction than an old pair of thongs.
I realise that. I played in them mostly. And they were far harder to run decent distances in than moulded. I would take moulded any day of the week (unless that day had been pissing down).
 
My two cents from Saturday:

Great effort from our guys to get so close. To be honest in general play they looked better, especially through the midfield. Still I’m devastated in that I feel we let one slip.

Outside of manning up Hill, we defended well. Elliot and Mihocek and Ginnivan didn’t get near it, so credit to the defensive unit as a whole.

We looked good again when we ran the ball from half back. Resulted in a number of easy goals over the back.

I don’t understand the Rayner carry on tbh. He had a very poor game and is inconsistent but he showed earlier in the finals he’s a match winner. Part of it is on the coaches to find his best spot and back him in.

Daniher was unbelievable again, and is completely carrying the forward line. Some of Baileys goals and general play were brilliant and like Rayner, the biggest thing for him is to become more consistent. His best is near unstoppable. McLuggage (great last 3 quarters) and Coleman (great first half), played well for large parts too.

Ashcroft will be a big in late next season and you know he’ll do everything right to get back at full fitness. Dev would be a huge loss as he brings the intense defensive pressure a number of our others guys lack. His skills are nowhere near as bad as some make out either.

Negatives: He might be a great club man, but Berry had an absolute howler. The 2 cheap 50s, conceding the opening goal with a nothing high tap and numerous turnovers costing goals. Add in that he can’t tackle with his bung shoulders. I’m sorry but he’s not AFL standard and I have been saying this for a while. Hipwood was poor but at least provided a contest down the line on a number of occasions.

Lester and Starcevich lowered their colours to Hill. Lester has had a brilliant season, but does get exposed on faster opponents. Lyons was still getting shown up defensively from the late centre clearances. Three pies were running to goal when De Goey got that late one. For the sub I would have subbed Berry (not Ah Chee) and moved Ah Chee to the wing.

All in all a great season, but with the hot weather and more exposure to those type of conditions I feel this GF was one we’ve let slip.
 
So fascinating listening to Fly Mcrae on AFL 360 tonight. The comment that really got in my head was the game the Pies against the Saints at Adelaide oval when the Pies won but Fly commented to the players that we should have lost. Mainly because we should have wasted time in certain circumstances but we played on quickly or done things quickly where we should have taken 40 seconds off the clock at certain times but should have been a free kick to the saints in a ruck dual with 0.1 seconds left. Fly's comment was we should not be playing this last 40 seconds , we should have taken time off the clock. This is something i hope we try and nail down as this happened with us in the first quarter. Need to rewatch our game again as have not got myself to watch again but we seemed to play on way to quickly late in that first quarter in our back pocket. Such a great listen he was.
 
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I realise that. I played in them mostly. And they were far harder to run decent distances in than moulded. I would take moulded any day of the week (unless that day had been pissing down).
I think most of the slips occurred on the painted logos - I reckon the number of players that used screw ins on Saturday was zero
 
So fascinating listening to Fly Macrae on AFL 360 tonight. The comment that really got in my head was the game the Pies against the Saints at Adelaide oval when the Pies won but Fly commented to the players that we should have lost. Mainly because we should have wasted time in certain circumstances but we played on quickly or done things quickly where we should have taken 40 seconds off the clock at certain times but should have been a free kick to the saints in a ruck dual with 0.1 seconds left. Fly's comment was we should not be playing this last 40 seconds , we should have taken time off the clock. This is something i hope we try and nail down as this happened with us in the first quarter. Need to rewatch our game again as have not got myself to watch again but we seemed to play on way to quickly late in that first quarter in our back pocket. Such a great listen he was.


Yep great insight from Fly on AFL360. These comments also from his press conference really resonated with me, especially his comment about the last 4 minutes.

“You lose a prelim final by a point and you have to get better. Competition has already improved. We had to bring more depth into our list”.

“Games come down to moments…little things win big games - that’s been our story”.


I know last year everyone thought it was a bit of a fluke (winning all the close games) … we’re pretty good at these clutch moments,” McRae smiled.

We’ve got such belief in that last four minutes that no one’s scoring – not us or the opposition”.
 
It is 2023 3KZ and the standards are significantly higher now. All players are fit now and the impacts of a big off season won’t be as immediate as the 80’s when footy was played at the standard of a modern QAFL game.

The Broadbeach Cats would go through undefeated if you transferred them to the 80’s.
Don’t fool yourself. Players were fit in the 1980’s. The 1986 pre-season that Parkin put Fitzroy through was a gruelling one and it paid off. Watch more games from that era and then you can talk from a position of knowledge.
 
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Good for you. I think Lester offers more in terms of rebound and intercept marking. Lester was second, behind Harris Andrews, for intercept marking this season. A valuable contribution that Gardiner will not be able to match in 2024.
I believe Lester’s ball use is better and he’s a smarter player as well.

But as a one on one defender, able to play on talls and smalls, actually defending, Gardiner is streets ahead.
 
I believe Lester’s ball use is better and he’s a smarter player as well.

But as a one on one defender, able to play on talls and smalls, actually defending, Gardiner is streets ahead.
Intercept marking? Lester ranked second this year behind Andrews. Any value in that?
 
It is 2023 3KZ and the standards are significantly higher now. All players are fit now and the impacts of a big off season won’t be as immediate as the 80’s when footy was played at the standard of a modern QAFL game.

The Broadbeach Cats would go through undefeated if you transferred them to the 80’s.
Fitness is relative I guess.

There’s certainly players at many clubs who aren’t AFL fit.
 
Don’t fool yourself. Players were fit in the 1980’s. The 1986 pre-season that Parkin put Fitzroy through was a gruelling one and it paid off. Watch more games from that era and then you can talk from a position of knowledge.

80’s football was good for the time but we’ve gone so far beyond it 3KZ. 40 years of sports science doesn’t care about your feelings.
 
Intercept marking? Lester ranked second this year behind Andrews. Any value in that?
There is.

A lot of time Lester was the free third man to come across in front of Andrews and his opponent to take the intercept mark.

We rotated Andrews and Lester in that role depending on match up, and where the ball was coming in from.

It was always either Andrews or Lester as the spare tall defender to intercept.

Our second defender, either Payne, or Gardiner when Payne went out injured had a lock down role. It wasn’t their role to come across as a third man.
 

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Don’t fool yourself. Players were fit in the 1980’s. The 1986 pre-season that Parkin put Fitzroy through was a gruelling one and it paid off. Watch more games from that era and then you can talk from a position of knowledge.

Go back earlier - try a full day scaffolding, or running bins, and then train. Fit as f***.
 
Go back earlier - try a full day scaffolding, or running bins, and then train. Fit as f***.
Absolutely . Many of the guys from the '80's and '90's were super fit.

I remember walking along the beach track near Black Rock in the early '90's in the middle of January and it felt like a freight train had whooshed pass me , going at serious speed. It was Robert Harvey.

The good teams of that era would absolutely smash anyone that wasn't AFL level these days. That's without the modern training.

It's a totally different game now a tactical ,territory and fitness battle. Not the same physical punishment tolerance required but certainly the same hardness. But they're not any better. It wouldn't take the good teams of any era long to adjust. Sure you'd have to get rid of some who just wouldn't reach the standard.

Ben Hogan would still win majors , Bradman would still be the best batsman and Bunton would still win Brownlows.
 
Intercept marking? Lester ranked second this year behind Andrews. Any value in that?
No, he didn't. Ranked equal fourth in intercept marking with Starcevich behind Harris, Jack and Keidean when looking at total marks or fourth (could call it third considering the low number of games Joyce played) in average intercept marks behind Harris, Jack and Joyce.
 
Despite the loss enjoyed the game and weekend in Melbourne. We’re not too far off and will start pretty strong next year. As much as I enjoyed the experience of going to the game I don’t think I’ll go back to a GF in the future. I like sitting in comfort - upper tier, centre wing, undercover. Paying $500 a ticket to sit in the pocket at ground level with fans jumping up blocking my view doesn’t seem worth it. I’m just glad I wasn’t at the sunny end of the ground. Next year I’ll watch from a pub somewhere local.
 
Sorry my mistake, second behind Harris Andrews for “Total Intercepts,” because he is also fantastic at reading the ball on the deck.
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Review Grand Final, 2023 - Collingwood vs. Brisbane Lions


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