Review Grand Final, 2023 - Collingwood vs. Brisbane Lions

[Tom14]

I'll stand by that the worst experiences I've ever had at games in Melbourne have been from North & Doggies fans.

Not sure how/why, maybe it's just been coincidences but never had any issues at games featuring bigger clubs.

Of course this is only my personal experience and the idiots i've encountered are not a reflection of an entire fanbase.

Tigers fans for me. I rag on umpires as much as the next person but the level of vitriol was genuinely shocking.

 

[Rouge 9917]

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I have bolded the defenders, but in terms of marks, competition wide this season:

Harris Andrews is ranked 6th in the competition with an average of 7.8 marks per game
Ryan Lester is ranked 29th with an average of 6.3 marks per game
Joe Daniher and Dayne Zorko are equal 47th with an average of 5.9 marks per game
Hipwood, Payne and Rich are equal 78th with an average of 5.4 marks per game
Coleman and Gunston are equal 101st with an average of 5.2 marks per game
Dunkley and Joyce are equal 117th with an average of 5 marks per game
McCluggage is equal 159th with an average of 4.7 marks per game
Starcevich is ranked 182nd with an average of 4.5 marks per game
Neale is ranked 219th with an average of 4.2 marks per game
Wilmot is ranked equal 237th with an average of 4.1 marks per game
McKenna is ranked equal 289th with an average of 3.7 marks per game
Gardiner is ranked equal 401st with an average of 3 marks per game

Lester's sensational numbers, competition wide are a reflection of the strength of his marking game and his willingness to run and make himself available as an avenue when exiting our defensive 50. His strength in the air and sure hands have been a feature of the season and see him well placed to continue to hold down a key role in defense.

before payne injured his ankle against swans his form was outstanding even though his primary role is 1v1 on the best KPF. Lester was out marked by bobby hill in the GF

 

[Section 5]

First post since returning from Melbourne as i wanted to watch the replay.
The Lions made it to the GF being one game more than any time since 2004.
GF are hard to get to, and harder to actually win one.
The boys and coaches would be devastated and be replaying a lot of what ifs over and over in their minds for some time.
100,024 is the biggest crowd the Brisbane Lions have played in front of ever. The biggest this season being 45,458 v Blues at Marvel
The 2002 Pies GF attendance of 91,817 being the previous record.
The Pies are used to these large crowds, not so much our boys, so that may have played a part.

This is no in-depth review of the GF.
I think the Pies played better than us on the day, but we were not at our best.
The GF is all about how the team and players play in that final day of the year.
Have they got something left or are they a bit gassed coming into the final game of the year.

The Pies appeared to handle the pressure a bit better than us and played right up to when each quarter siren sounded.

After watching the replay, it just looked like the Pies were meant to get that win.
Our rushed kicks out of defense appeared to fall into Pies hands about 60% of the time.
The Pies rushed kicks out of their defense fell into the Lions hands about 50% of the time.
No official stat on this just my observations. This is just a good/bad luck situation that did not fall our way.
This was one contributing factor to why the I50's were won by the Pies 57 to 43.

The Pies found a loose player regularly just outside and just inside their forward 50 far too easily.
The Lions on the other hand struggled to place kicks to our advantage in that same zone.
This resulted in the Pies taking 12 marks inside 50, quite a few uncontested, to the Lions lowly 5.
On top of that the Pies nailed quite a few crunch goals outside 50. A few after the siren sounded.

Quite a few other things appeared to slightly fall in the Pies favour. Thats just how things work out sometimes.

No player assessments as i don't think that is helpful after a close GF loss.
The Lions players tried their best to get the win, it was just not our destiny in 2023.
Now for that dreaded 6 months offseason.

 

[Brizzys Squizzy]

I mean ignoring the fact that I still think McCluggage is better on the outside, you need more than 3 inside mids, that’s how rotations work…

WTF are you on about rotations was my point we have 5 or 6 who rotate through, you want him in middle more often so how to do it and also replace Rayner role if goes into the middle. Ashcroft back mid season who's a pure mid ,neale pure mid dunkley pure mid Clugg despite you ignoring the fact is now 75% mid and plays his best footy in middle Bailey pinch hits through the middle Rayner pinch hits , Dev has been through there aswell( maybe N/A next season). My point is Rayner needs to be more consistent with the role given to him. Until he can do that can't be trusted to take more of a pure mids minutes away.

 

[3KZ is Football]

before payne injured his ankle against swans his form was outstanding even though his primary role is 1v1 on the best KPF. Lester was out marked by bobby hill in the GF

So was Starcevich. In any given season players are going to be out marked. It doesn’t really mean much.

 

[luthor]

So was Starcevich. In any given season players are going to be out marked. It doesn’t really mean much.

Your Lester bias is getting a bit tiresome.

Hill made Lester look silly at least twice.

That means a lot in a GF

 

[martinson]

Your Lester bias is getting a bit tiresome.

Hill made Lester look silly at least twice.

That means a lot in a GF

To be fair though Luthor in what universe would anyone have Lester on Hill ?

Worst match up of all time.

Hill was the danger player as was flagged on here 3 or 4 times and we just didn't put enough work into it.

They waltzed it forward too easily which really helped Hill but we didn't seem to have a plan. Well maybe we did but I couldn't see what it was.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Your Lester bias is getting a bit tiresome.

Hill made Lester look silly at least twice.

That means a lot in a GF

But have you seen how many marks Lester took this year?

 

[martinson]

Just on Lester why anyone is having a go at him has me a bit confused.

He wasn't that bad. Others were way worse.

 

[BRAB]

But have you seen how many marks Lester took this year?

Please back up your argument with a poorly cropped screenshot of the AFL phone app or it is invalid.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Please back up your argument with a poorly cropped screenshot of the AFL phone app or it is invalid.

Can you bold the words I need to pay attention to?

 

[briztoon]

Just on Lester why anyone is having a go at him has me a bit confused.

He wasn't that bad. Others were way worse.

It’s not that Lester was bad.

It’s more that Collingwood exploited a lot of our players weaknesses.

They put a lot of work in to negating quite a few of our players, and looked to exploit mismatches when ever they could.


Whereas, from 8000km away, it looked like we focused on one matchup, Dunkley on De Goey, and we exploited one mismatch, when Daniher had a much shorter defender on him at one moment of the game.

It just appears that Fagan was out coached on multiple levels.

 

[3KZ is Football]

It’s not that Lester was bad.

It’s more that Collingwood exploited a lot of our players weaknesses.

They put a lot of work in to negating quite a few of our players, and looked to exploit mismatches when ever they could.


Whereas, from 8000km away, it looked like we focused on one matchup, Dunkley on De Goey, and we exploited one mismatch, when Daniher had a much shorter defender on him at one moment of the game.

It just appears that Fagan was out coached on multiple levels.

Absolutely.

 

[KissKiss]

It’s not that Lester was bad.

It’s more that Collingwood exploited a lot of our players weaknesses.

They put a lot of work in to negating quite a few of our players, and looked to exploit mismatches when ever they could.


Whereas, from 8000km away, it looked like we focused on one matchup, Dunkley on De Goey, and we exploited one mismatch, when Daniher had a much shorter defender on him at one moment of the game.

It just appears that Fagan was out coached on multiple levels.

I dont disagree Collingwood were incredibly well drilled and look to have put a lot of planning and learning after the loses to us through the year.

Also Lester wasn't bad, I'm never that upset by the last defender who gets caught out by a mismatch out the back. The error more likely happened up field and then the last guy is often the one desperately trying to switch over to cover a player they shouldn't have had to.

Lester has been a great revival this year and done us all proud. As one who has been advocating for him as a perfect sub candidate for at least 2 to 3 years I'm happy to see him go beyond that. But I also see we do need to be planning for life beyond Lester as a player sooner or later

 

[Nathan Barley]

It’s not that Lester was bad.

It’s more that Collingwood exploited a lot of our players weaknesses.

They put a lot of work in to negating quite a few of our players, and looked to exploit mismatches when ever they could.


Whereas, from 8000km away, it looked like we focused on one matchup, Dunkley on De Goey, and we exploited one mismatch, when Daniher had a much shorter defender on him at one moment of the game.

It just appears that Fagan was out coached on multiple levels.

They just played better. Reading far too much into it

if they were going to negate players they wouldn’t have let Kiddy have 21 first half touches

You just seem to keep coming up with different reasons why Collingwood were better than us

 

[briztoon]

They just played better. Reading far too much into it

if they were going to negate players they wouldn’t have let Kiddy have 21 first half touches

You just seem to keep coming up with different reasons why Collingwood were better than us

What, there can’t be many different reasons why Collingwood were better than us?

There are many posters on here who have provided brief and extensive explanations and analysis of why Collingwood were better than us.

Similarly, there’s been plenty of media articles and discussion about Collingwood beating us.

There are reasons why “they just played better than us”.

As Mighty Lions mentioned in one of his posts, we weren’t ready for their “move forward at all costs” style of play.

 

[Mighty Lions]

They put a lot of work in to negating quite a few of our players, and looked to exploit mismatches when ever they could.


Whereas, from 8000km away, it looked like we focused on one matchup, Dunkley on De Goey, and we exploited one mismatch, when Daniher had a much shorter defender on him at one moment of the game.

It just appears that Fagan was out coached on multiple levels.

For the first time one of your posts gave me a laugh.

 

[Nathan Barley]

What, there can’t be many different reasons why Collingwood were better than us?

There are many posters on here who have provided brief and extensive explanations and analysis of why Collingwood were better than us.

Similarly, there’s been plenty of media articles and discussion about Collingwood beating us.

There are reasons why “they just played better than us”.

As Mighty Lions mentioned in one of his posts, we weren’t ready for their “move forward at all costs” style of play.

We were the other 2 times we played them this year

 

[twhowler]

What perplexed me about Hill was the space we gave him even in the third quarter. At one point collingwood were streaming forward and nobody was within 40m of him. After 4 goals in the first half. I know it's old fashioned for a total lockdown but at least someone should have had a leg-rope on him

There was a point deep in the third where collingwood were on a fast-break and somehow had 2 players in heaps of space. looked a certain goal and would have put us 2 goals down. the kick somehow went straight to starcevich. we looked totally done then but to be fair improved in the last quarter

 

[martinson]

What perplexed me about Hill was the space we gave him even in the third quarter. At one point collingwood were streaming forward and nobody was within 40m of him. After 4 goals in the first half. I know it's old fashioned for a total lockdown but at least someone should have had a leg-rope on him

There was a point deep in the third where collingwood were on a fast-break and somehow had 2 players in heaps of space. looked a certain goal and would have put us 2 goals down. the kick somehow went straight to starcevich. we looked totally done then but to be fair improved in the last quarter

I always thought Wilmot was the obvious matchup for Hill. And everyone could see Hill was on from the start.

 

[AllHart]

Last Friday's Grand Final Parade featuring the Brisbane players:

 

[twhowler]

Let's say a close loss can be up to 15 points.

And let's use examples of teams that have not won a flag in the recent years before such a close loss

And limit to this century

Pies 2002 - 9 point loss. 2003 - Grand final
Eagles 2005 - 4 point loss - 2006 - premiership
Saints 2009 - 12 point loss (6 points when siren sounded) - 2010 grand final (draw then loss)
Hawks 2012 (they did win in 2008 but a lot of new players in this side) - 10 point loss - 2013 premiership
Dockers 2013 - lost by 15 points - 2014 finished 4th, then went out in straight sets
Swans 2016 (they had won four years earlier) - 2017 6th, went out in semi final
Collingwood 2018 - lost by 5 points - 2019 finished 4th, lost prelim by 1 point

So no disasters there.

The worst result swans but plenty of those players had flags

Freo still made top 4

My other POSITIVE - Daniher was broken when he came to the lions. Is now on 69 games for us, could be father son eligible by 2025!

 

[royboys4eva]

Reflecting on the GF. In the first half Coleman and Zorko hit a couple kicks into the corridor and we looked on. It was almost identical to the Richmond game at the MCG last year. Coleman was on fire and every time he got his hands on the ball we looked dangerous. He has such great vision and has the kicking skills to back it up.

Unfortunately like that Richmond game - the corridor movement stopped in second half in the GF and Coleman struggles to have the same influence. We still had some nice ball movement but it was more out wide. Collingwood kept going through the middle and seemed better at getting that extra number thought the middle. They picked off some dangerous kicks and some they executed and some the didn't. But, they were prepared to continue taking the corridor. I feel sometimes we go back into a defensive mode and too much down the line.

I hope in the off season we work on kick in's a bit more. When we take a bit more risk with our kick in's and ball movement we look so dangerous. We have to learn if we make an error not to go into a our shell.

With Kiddy - McKenna - Wilmot we have the talent and kicking ability to take teams on.

 

[Cyclops]

May I post in your forum?

Great season from the Lions, arguably the best side and definitely the most skilled.

A few points occur:

VicBias: is real and its in the scheduling. Be nice if you got a home grand final, or a neutral one, or if you got to play on the GF venue more than 3 times in a season. VicBias to me isn't cheating umps (though they favour the home side, and guess where it was played?), its the fact more than half the clubs are in one state (so Vics get more political clout) and in other states politicians get to buy home games for their clubs: SA bought a home round, Vic clubs have locked in home grand finals and its wrong. We won't talk about Sydney or GWS because I have opinions that border defamation.

Forwards. Your beautifully drilled small forwards cut us to pieces. From very few chances they kicked a defensible score. Joey D made Moore look silly, no one does that. Both looked to be limping so no excuses, it was a hell of a game. Close to Norm. Win Fagan.

Rucks. Big O got (mostly fairly) biffed and blocked so it was loose ball at the bounces. Win McRae.

Mids. Four of our mids (Daics Pendles Crisp and Mitchell-I think there's 40 games of finals experience in there) played their best game of the year, and De Goey couldn't be held all day and they all scored goals except Mitchell. Win McRae

Defence. Our defence made almost no mistakes, and got hammered, 10 or 11 goals conceded. Your defence held our forwards to 5 goals, four of those coming from silver service delivery to Hill when our mids were on top. Win Fagan.

Fitness. We scored 9 of our goals in time-on, and ran over you in the last despite going a man down in the first. Win our fitness bloke.

The only area where we destroyed you was fitness. Your defence coped with our forward line rotation which has some of the weirdest blokes to match up on (Elliot the 178cm CHF, Mihocek the 191 cm goal sneak, Frampton nailed to the goal line and glued to Harris-Andrews' waist) and one or two of them was going to get loose (Hill 4.2 and McCreery 0.3 in the event).

I think both coaches had strengths shown on the day: we haven't played "bash it forward" for weeks, we spread scientifically vs Giants and Dees, in fact vs Giants we almost played Melbourne style. Fagan had a plan for that, not perfect but he correctly identified De Goey as the game breaker and put your best stopper on him. He got his goals and his significant touches within 4 minutes of the siren.

The future: I hope we can keep this level of footy up, and if we do we will meet again. I don't see a lot of decline for you and plenty of improvement, been a fan of Ashcroft since his juniors (OK I was a sportsman's lunch at Docklands and he happened to be playing, amazing kid) and Fletcher too, FMD.

I always thought Daicos would get a flag, some players have that aura. Lachie Neale

9

Lachie Neale

Age

31

Ht

177cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

27.0

5star

K

11.5

4star

HB

15.5

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

3.7

5star

CL

5.9

5star

D

28.3

5star

K

13.9

5star

HB

14.4

5star

M

4.6

4star

T

4.0

5star

CL

5.9

5star

D

12.0

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

7.4

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

1.0

3star

CL

0.4

3star

is one I have a strong conviction will raise a cup.

If and when you do win it all, it will count for more than almost anyone elses. Its harder to win from outside Victoria, and Brisbane has very little political clout (unlike Eagles and Crows): that adds up to you flags being worth more than ours.

Hope that changes, its supposed to be AFL not VFL plus.

 

[SpecialBruce]

Let's say a close loss can be up to 15 points.

And let's use examples of teams that have not won a flag in the recent years before such a close loss

And limit to this century

Pies 2002 - 9 point loss. 2003 - Grand final
Eagles 2005 - 4 point loss - 2006 - premiership
Saints 2009 - 12 point loss (6 points when siren sounded) - 2010 grand final (draw then loss)
Hawks 2012 (they did win in 2008 but a lot of new players in this side) - 10 point loss - 2013 premiership
Dockers 2013 - lost by 15 points - 2014 finished 4th, then went out in straight sets
Swans 2016 (they had won four years earlier) - 2017 6th, went out in semi final
Collingwood 2018 - lost by 5 points - 2019 finished 4th, lost prelim by 1 point

So no disasters there.

The worst result swans but plenty of those players had flags

Freo still made top 4

My other POSITIVE - Daniher was broken when he came to the lions. Is now on 69 games for us, could be father son eligible by 2025!

100% on Daniher. He is a massive positive. I liked that we got him. I liked him in his first year. He frustrated the hell out of me and I then didn't like him. I then liked him again this year and even more now.

Hopefully he has at least 5 more years left minimum.