richmond were 2 peaters
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Greatest Dynasty of the 21st century - Lions vs Cats vs Hawks vs Tigers
- Thread starter Rasha
- Start date
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SSSSSS
Brownlow Medallist
- Apr 18, 2011
- 22,272
- 51,571
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
- Other Teams
- Six decades of domination
That's right. I guess they can join us as honourary members.
Geelong can go back to their own board.
As a Collingwood supporter I totally understand you thinking like that. For pies fans it’s just about making finals and grand finals whether you win them or not.
Participation is all you need to be satisfied.
For other teams like hawthorn and Richmond, it’s about winning grand finals. Each to their own I suppose.
- Banned
- #1,131
Which is highly embarrassing on Leigh’s part. Two 90 minute flights didn’t cost Brisbane 7 goals one week later
AFL Period Finals Stats 1990-2019 (Haven't checked for accuracy)
Damn West Coast make the finals a lot without capitalising.
| Team | Seasons played | Finals series appearances | Most recent appearance | Premierships won* |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Adelaide | 29 | 15 | 2017 | 2 |
| Brisbane Bears | 7 | 2 | 1996 | 0 |
| Brisbane Lions | 23 | 9 | 2019 | 3 |
| Carlton | 30 | 11 | 2013 | 1 |
| Collingwood | 30 | 15 | 2019 | 2 |
| Essendon | 30 | 17 | 2019 | 2 |
| Fitzroy Lions | 7 | 0 | - | 0 |
| Fremantle | 25 | 7 | 2015 | 0 |
| Geelong | 30 | 21 | 2019 | 3 |
| Gold Coast | 9 | 0 | - | 0 |
| Greater Western Sydney | 8 | 4 | 2019 | 0 |
| Hawthorn | 30 | 18 | 2018 | 5 |
| Melbourne | 30 | 10 | 2018 | 0 |
| North Melbourne | 30 | 16 | 2016 | 2 |
| Port Adelaide | 23 | 10 | 2017 | 1 |
| Richmond | 30 | 8 | 2019 | 2 |
| St Kilda | 30 | 11 | 2011 | 0 |
| Sydney | 30 | 20 | 2018 | 2 |
| West Coast | 30 | 23 | 2019 | 4 |
| Western Bulldogs | 30 | 14 | 2019 | 1 |
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WC have a 1 in 6 strike rate, only 3 others have a better conversion rate when including clubs that haven't won a flag during that period.
Yeah that's a good point. I hadn't looked at it closely and was drawn to the great conversion rates of the Hawks and Richmond.
“Sneaks ahead”
That is a shocking take.
Hawthorn won 4 flags and three of the teams they beat also won flags - Geelong, Sydney and West Coast.
Geelong won 3 flags and one of their opponents won a flag - Collingwood.
Brisbane won 3 flags and one of their opponents won a flag - Essendon
Richmond won three flags and none of their opponents have won anything.
If Hawthorns opponents in Grand finals were so weak how did they win 5 premierships of their own? Logically it makes zero sense.
The disrespect to Hawthorn is astounding. By every measure Hawthorn are at least equal or better than Brisbane and Geelong. Scoring average, winning margins, premierships, etc.
The fact Hawthorn beat Geelong at their absolute peak puts them ahead of Geelong.
I know it hurts but you need to come to terms with this.
All three of Brisbane Geelong and Hawthorn are exceptional football teams but for to dismiss Hawthorn as “slightly ahead” of Richmond is laughable.
And for Richmond supporters who want to be part of this your scoring average is pathetic, your winning margins are pathetic and your grand final opponents were worse than pathetic - including Geelong.
This is an odd way of looking at things“Sneaks ahead”
That is a shocking take.
Hawthorn won 4 flags and three of the teams they beat also won flags - Geelong, Sydney and West Coast.
Geelong won 3 flags and one of their opponents won a flag - Collingwood.
Brisbane won 3 flags and one of their opponents won a flag - Essendon
So Hawthorn beat 2015 West Coast, which makes Hawthorn awesome cos West Coast eventually won a flag in 2018
Well in 2009, and 2010, and 2011 Geelong beat Hawthorn who won flags in 2013-2015.
There's nothing unique about being grand final opponent. If you win the flag you technically beat everybody else that year
It depends how you measure these things
The problem is the team who beat Geelong in 2008 only had 6 players left over in 2015
As a club Hawthorn probably wins this. No one's had an equivalent 8 or 10 year period as Hawthorn under Clarkson considering the 4th flag
But it's not the same thing as Geelong having a core group who were awesome over 5 years, with 14 of the 2007 GF players still there in 2011. With 6 or 7 of the top 10 in the B&F the same in 2007 as 2011
Both great achievements Hawthorn and Geelong but it's comparing apples and oranges. One was a great team for 5 years. The other is a club who won a flag, dropped away, made upgrades and changes, then returned to contender status, made more upgrades, eventually winning a 3 peat
Silverware and accolades aside purely the best performance eye test wise was the Geelong side maybe I was too young to appreciate how good the Lions were but It's Geelong for me.
This Melbourne side has the potential to be good as good as that Geelong side, time will tell.
This Melbourne side has the potential to be good as good as that Geelong side, time will tell.
Jackington
Back Flank Battler
The levels of salt here are actually quite incredible.
To dismiss Richmond as an outfit like that when you’re mad about the same thing being done to Hawthorn.
You might notice (if you’d actually read the thread) we’re not taking the 2008 flag into account, because the prompt says “Hawthorn 2013-2015” and not “Hawthorn 2008-2015”
Go cry about it somewhere else, it’s frankly embarrassing.
It's a table I remembered seeing a couple of years ago and found it again. I didn't create it. Nothing meant by not including the last 2 years. You should be able to copy, paste and edit it to add the last 2 if you want.
- Jul 13, 2015
- 38,667
- 43,840
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
Tell me the outlier in the below;
Ave score/ave score against/ave winning margin
127.6/97/30.6
127.9/86.3/41.7
128.1/89.1/39
102.2//83.5/18.8
Note: 2020 was not included as the numbers are skewed massively against Richmond due to CoVid shortened games.
It is not salt. It is facts.
September is where it matters right? Go do another exercise and just include the 4 teams September finals appearance over their flag years for avg score/avg score against/avg winning margin.
- Nov 22, 2014
- 1,052
- 1,619
- AFL Club
- Geelong
- Other Teams
- Liverpool
Weird. Why did you include 2016 Hawks but not 2011? The latter was far superior.
If you're going to include 2016 Hawks, I'd include Geelong 2012-13 too. 2012 was an elimination final loss, but 2013 was a kick away from the GF (similar to Hawks 2011).
- Nov 22, 2014
- 1,052
- 1,619
- AFL Club
- Geelong
- Other Teams
- Liverpool
Quality of GF opponents in winning years (one factor in judging these teams overall):
1 (Poor), 2 (Average), 3 (Good), 4 (Very Good), 5 (Brilliant)
Brisbane (average GF opponent ranking: 2.83)
01 Essendon (1st, 17-5, 134.5%) - 4.5 Very Good-Brilliant. Minor premiers (equal win-loss to Brisbane) and strong % following all-time great 21-1 minor premiership, GF winning season in 2000. Only won one flag 1999-2001 but arguably the best team of all-time in 2000.
02 Collingwood (4th, 13-9, 109.7%) - 1.5 Poor-average. Scraped into the top four with a record that would barely make the finals in 2022. Had a fantastic finals campaign, knocking off to-be 3x minor premiers (2002-04) Port Adelaide. Led by all-time great player Nathan Buckley, but quality fell away quickly after that. Performed admirably in a close grand final in the wet.
03 Collingwood (2nd, 15-7, 121.6%) - 2.5 Average-Good. Second place with a solid, if unspectacular, win-loss and %. Back-to-back GFs against great Brisbane team. Knocked off fantastic Brisbane (QF) and Port Adelaide (PF) sides on way to GF before performing much more poorly in GF than previous year.
Geelong (average GF opponent ranking: 3.67)
07 Port Adelaide (2nd, 15-7, 113.5%) - 1 Poor. Solid win-loss but average % to finish in second place. Record GF losing margin is partly due to the strength of the winner but also the relative weakness of the loser. This team finished 13th in 2008 and was a mix of declining 2002-04 Port Adelaide side (great side) and upcoming generation of players.
09 St. Kilda (1st, 20-2, 155.7%) - 5 Brilliant. Probably the best team to not win a premiership ever. Unbelievable 20-2 season (and looked like genuinely a chance of going 22-0) with extremely strong %. Backed it up with GF appearance against similarly dominant Collingwood (10-11) side, which famously ended in a draw. You can't go much closer to winning a flag than that. Brilliant defensive team, fantastic spine and very well drilled team with plenty of effective role players.
11 Collingwood (1st, 20-2, 167.7%) - 5 Brilliant. Brilliant consecutive minor-premiership winning team that won flag in 2010 with another very strong record (17-4-1, 141.7%). Only lost three games all year (including finals), all to the eventual premiers. Still one of, if not the best % of all-time (?) and this included a 96-point dead rubber loss to Geelong in final round of H+A season (must have been close to 180% prior to that). One of the strongest H+A side not to win premiership (alongside 08 Cats and 09 Saints) in that year. Played in what I maintain is the highest quality GF (from both teams) in AFL history in wet conditions, with Geelong only pulling away in the final quarter. Deserves a rating of 6 out of 5.
Hawthorn (average GF opponent ranking: 3.5)
08 Geelong (1st, 21-1, 161.8%) - 5 Brilliant. Undeniably one of the best H+A seasons of all-time, coming off similar dominance in 2007, and backed up in 2009, and this Geelong team still holds all-time H+A winning records across 25, 50, 100 games (to my knowledge). Looked destined for back-to-back after comfortably winning against solid St. Kilda and Western Bulldogs teams but came unstuck at the final hurdle against very strong Hawthorn team which would later peak from 2011-2015.
13 Fremantle (3rd, 16-5-1, 134.1%) - 3 Good. Very solid team, with many of the hallmarks of the great Ross Lyon St. Kilda team mentioned above. Very similar % and win-loss to Hawthorn (1st, 19-3, 135.7%) and Geelong (2nd, 18-4, 135.6%), but much more defensively focused than those teams. All these teams were closer than one might expect, and can be seen in close PF/GF wins for Hawthorn. This Fremantle team would be rated 3.5 out of 5 but a poor quality GF (from both teams) marks them down.
14 Sydney (1st, 17-5, 142.9%) - 3.5 Good-Very Good. Very strong H+A side, similar to eventual premiers Hawthorn (2nd, 17-5, 140.8%), which culminated in a battle of opposing styles (Hawthorn - more attacking, Sydney - more defensive). Sydney were also highly convincing in QF (Fremantle) and PF (North Melbourne) wins. Repeat of fantastic 2012 GF, but this one ended up more similar to 2007 with an undeniably fantastic side on GF day demolishing an insipid Sydney. This side would have been comfortably rated 4 had they turned up more convincingly on GF day.
15 West Coast (2nd, 16-5-1, 148.2%) - 2.5 Average-Good. Performed very strongly in H+A season and comfortably beat eventual premiers Hawthorn in home QF (96-64). Like 2014 Sydney, perhaps unlucky to play a GF away when finishing above their opponent in H+A. Hawthorn were the better team % wise though (3rd, 16-6, 158.4%) and were able to brutally dispatch opponents when they needed too. Hawthorn comfortably accounted for this West Coast team in the GF (again a mixture of a dominant performance by the winner and a disappointing performance by the loser) and similarly to Swans 2014, this marks this West Coast team down.
Richmond (average GF opponent ranking: 2)
17 Adelaide (1st, 15-6-1, 136.0%) - 2 Average. Despite the ridicule that has followed this team in the years following their disastrous GF loss (power stance, pre-season camp, missing finals every year subsequently), this was actually a fairly strong H+A season (much better % than Geelong/Richmond in 2nd and 3rd with around 118%, but very similar win/loss record across top four). Did the job convincingly in home QF (GWS) and PF (Geelong) but were terrible on the biggest stage against a rampant Tigers team that peaked at the right time and started their era of dominance.
19 GWS (6th, 13-9, 115.4%) - 1 Poor. Honestly a deplorable team to make the GF and a Geelong-Richmond or Collingwood-Richmond GF would have been more fitting (the Geelong-Richmond PF was a competitive game before Richmond pulled away late in the game). Didn't make the top four, poor % and despite rousing wins in EF, SF and PF over Bulldogs, Brisbane and Collingwood, the despicable GF performance (arguably worse than Port Adelaide 2007 with GWS scoring 25 points) showed how far off the best they were.
20 Geelong (4th, 12-5*, 136.8%) - 3 Good. Hard to judge how strong/weak this team was as this was a COVID-affected season and 1st/2nd (Port Adelaide/Brisbane) benefitted from more home games than Geelong and Richmond (3rd, 12-4-1, 129.9%). Had the best % in the H+A season, and performed strongly away from Victoria in dominant finals wins over Collingwood (SF) and Brisbane (PF) after poor showing against Port Adelaide (QF loss). Performed easily the best of Richmond's GF opponents on the day and was well on top in the first half but couldn't translate dominance on the scoreboard. Richmond was too strong in the second half, and pulled away in final quarter with Dustin Martin having one of the greatest individual performances in AFL history.
1 (Poor), 2 (Average), 3 (Good), 4 (Very Good), 5 (Brilliant)
Brisbane (average GF opponent ranking: 2.83)
01 Essendon (1st, 17-5, 134.5%) - 4.5 Very Good-Brilliant. Minor premiers (equal win-loss to Brisbane) and strong % following all-time great 21-1 minor premiership, GF winning season in 2000. Only won one flag 1999-2001 but arguably the best team of all-time in 2000.
02 Collingwood (4th, 13-9, 109.7%) - 1.5 Poor-average. Scraped into the top four with a record that would barely make the finals in 2022. Had a fantastic finals campaign, knocking off to-be 3x minor premiers (2002-04) Port Adelaide. Led by all-time great player Nathan Buckley, but quality fell away quickly after that. Performed admirably in a close grand final in the wet.
03 Collingwood (2nd, 15-7, 121.6%) - 2.5 Average-Good. Second place with a solid, if unspectacular, win-loss and %. Back-to-back GFs against great Brisbane team. Knocked off fantastic Brisbane (QF) and Port Adelaide (PF) sides on way to GF before performing much more poorly in GF than previous year.
Geelong (average GF opponent ranking: 3.67)
07 Port Adelaide (2nd, 15-7, 113.5%) - 1 Poor. Solid win-loss but average % to finish in second place. Record GF losing margin is partly due to the strength of the winner but also the relative weakness of the loser. This team finished 13th in 2008 and was a mix of declining 2002-04 Port Adelaide side (great side) and upcoming generation of players.
09 St. Kilda (1st, 20-2, 155.7%) - 5 Brilliant. Probably the best team to not win a premiership ever. Unbelievable 20-2 season (and looked like genuinely a chance of going 22-0) with extremely strong %. Backed it up with GF appearance against similarly dominant Collingwood (10-11) side, which famously ended in a draw. You can't go much closer to winning a flag than that. Brilliant defensive team, fantastic spine and very well drilled team with plenty of effective role players.
11 Collingwood (1st, 20-2, 167.7%) - 5 Brilliant. Brilliant consecutive minor-premiership winning team that won flag in 2010 with another very strong record (17-4-1, 141.7%). Only lost three games all year (including finals), all to the eventual premiers. Still one of, if not the best % of all-time (?) and this included a 96-point dead rubber loss to Geelong in final round of H+A season (must have been close to 180% prior to that). One of the strongest H+A side not to win premiership (alongside 08 Cats and 09 Saints) in that year. Played in what I maintain is the highest quality GF (from both teams) in AFL history in wet conditions, with Geelong only pulling away in the final quarter. Deserves a rating of 6 out of 5.
Hawthorn (average GF opponent ranking: 3.5)
08 Geelong (1st, 21-1, 161.8%) - 5 Brilliant. Undeniably one of the best H+A seasons of all-time, coming off similar dominance in 2007, and backed up in 2009, and this Geelong team still holds all-time H+A winning records across 25, 50, 100 games (to my knowledge). Looked destined for back-to-back after comfortably winning against solid St. Kilda and Western Bulldogs teams but came unstuck at the final hurdle against very strong Hawthorn team which would later peak from 2011-2015.
13 Fremantle (3rd, 16-5-1, 134.1%) - 3 Good. Very solid team, with many of the hallmarks of the great Ross Lyon St. Kilda team mentioned above. Very similar % and win-loss to Hawthorn (1st, 19-3, 135.7%) and Geelong (2nd, 18-4, 135.6%), but much more defensively focused than those teams. All these teams were closer than one might expect, and can be seen in close PF/GF wins for Hawthorn. This Fremantle team would be rated 3.5 out of 5 but a poor quality GF (from both teams) marks them down.
14 Sydney (1st, 17-5, 142.9%) - 3.5 Good-Very Good. Very strong H+A side, similar to eventual premiers Hawthorn (2nd, 17-5, 140.8%), which culminated in a battle of opposing styles (Hawthorn - more attacking, Sydney - more defensive). Sydney were also highly convincing in QF (Fremantle) and PF (North Melbourne) wins. Repeat of fantastic 2012 GF, but this one ended up more similar to 2007 with an undeniably fantastic side on GF day demolishing an insipid Sydney. This side would have been comfortably rated 4 had they turned up more convincingly on GF day.
15 West Coast (2nd, 16-5-1, 148.2%) - 2.5 Average-Good. Performed very strongly in H+A season and comfortably beat eventual premiers Hawthorn in home QF (96-64). Like 2014 Sydney, perhaps unlucky to play a GF away when finishing above their opponent in H+A. Hawthorn were the better team % wise though (3rd, 16-6, 158.4%) and were able to brutally dispatch opponents when they needed too. Hawthorn comfortably accounted for this West Coast team in the GF (again a mixture of a dominant performance by the winner and a disappointing performance by the loser) and similarly to Swans 2014, this marks this West Coast team down.
Richmond (average GF opponent ranking: 2)
17 Adelaide (1st, 15-6-1, 136.0%) - 2 Average. Despite the ridicule that has followed this team in the years following their disastrous GF loss (power stance, pre-season camp, missing finals every year subsequently), this was actually a fairly strong H+A season (much better % than Geelong/Richmond in 2nd and 3rd with around 118%, but very similar win/loss record across top four). Did the job convincingly in home QF (GWS) and PF (Geelong) but were terrible on the biggest stage against a rampant Tigers team that peaked at the right time and started their era of dominance.
19 GWS (6th, 13-9, 115.4%) - 1 Poor. Honestly a deplorable team to make the GF and a Geelong-Richmond or Collingwood-Richmond GF would have been more fitting (the Geelong-Richmond PF was a competitive game before Richmond pulled away late in the game). Didn't make the top four, poor % and despite rousing wins in EF, SF and PF over Bulldogs, Brisbane and Collingwood, the despicable GF performance (arguably worse than Port Adelaide 2007 with GWS scoring 25 points) showed how far off the best they were.
20 Geelong (4th, 12-5*, 136.8%) - 3 Good. Hard to judge how strong/weak this team was as this was a COVID-affected season and 1st/2nd (Port Adelaide/Brisbane) benefitted from more home games than Geelong and Richmond (3rd, 12-4-1, 129.9%). Had the best % in the H+A season, and performed strongly away from Victoria in dominant finals wins over Collingwood (SF) and Brisbane (PF) after poor showing against Port Adelaide (QF loss). Performed easily the best of Richmond's GF opponents on the day and was well on top in the first half but couldn't translate dominance on the scoreboard. Richmond was too strong in the second half, and pulled away in final quarter with Dustin Martin having one of the greatest individual performances in AFL history.
you are correct, my mistake.
I'm not interested in getting into the shitfights. I'll just say I rate Brisbane as the 'best' simply because, in my opinion, they were the most complete team out of them all.
They had great forwards, great mids, and great backs. They had fantastic talls and smalls. They had inside grunt and physicality, and outside run and flair. They had mental strength, and shown by them winnings 3 GFs away from home, including in 2003 doing it the hard way. And they seemed to balance the sometimes-tricky act of having a load of individual champions with also playing well as a united team.
On paper, you could look at the Cats' KPFs of their era (Mooney, Nathan Ablett, a still-green Hawkins), or maybe Hawthorn's KPDs at times, and see that as a possible "weakness". There wasn't much like that you could say about Brisbane....
They had great forwards, great mids, and great backs. They had fantastic talls and smalls. They had inside grunt and physicality, and outside run and flair. They had mental strength, and shown by them winnings 3 GFs away from home, including in 2003 doing it the hard way. And they seemed to balance the sometimes-tricky act of having a load of individual champions with also playing well as a united team.
On paper, you could look at the Cats' KPFs of their era (Mooney, Nathan Ablett, a still-green Hawkins), or maybe Hawthorn's KPDs at times, and see that as a possible "weakness". There wasn't much like that you could say about Brisbane....
2012
9 players from 2008
Guerra was still on list but didnt make the GF team. Played in 2013 and was in the 2008 GF team
2013
9 players from the 2008 GF team
+ 1 from the 2008 list (Baily)
2014
7 players from 2008 GF team played for hawthorn
+ 1 from 2008 list didnt play (sewell)
1 played for Sydney (Franklin)
+ another 2 from the 2008 list played for sydney (Kennedy + McGlynn)
2015
6 players from 2008 team
Hawks 2009 side was hobbled by injury and early retirements of key pillars of the team
- Croad our best and biggest bodied defender couldnt run 100% again after the 08 GF leaving a gaping hole in defense aged 28.
- Robbie Campbell our number 1 ruckman had an injury plagued season and retired in his prime at the end of the year due to his knee aged 27.
These early retirements to key pillars in the hawthorn lineup was a big reason for the slump imo.
Once these 2 holes were filled ie hale recruitment /bailey developing and brian lake recruitment the hawks were back to being a dominant team.
That's the best analysis i've seen. It's splitting hairs essentially, but Geelong at their absolute peak was the best team i've ever seen, 2000 Bombers included. Probably should have won 4 out of 5, and maybe even 5 in a row. All great sides though.
