Has Hawthorn taken the mantle of big 4 and kicked out Richmond

[smasha]

Hawthorn: Massive crowds, big profits, on field success

Richmond: Coaching and football department problems, Directors mouthing off when they shouldn't. Director sacked. Facilities one of the bottom 4, Finances, just hanging in there, sponsorship lost, and no on field success since the early 1980's.

Maybe the Hawks are now one of the big four and Richmond a middle of the road club and falling?

I think you have a tinge of green in your eyes.

Sound like the media.

They have a Tiger chip on their shoulders too.

 

[smasha]

Alot has changed since 1921. Alot has changed since 1991. No point comparing the Essendon of pre 1991 to the Essendon of 2008. Essendon have leaped well past Richmond and are clearly Victorias second best drawing club. You would be very hard pressed to present a relevant argument based on the last 20 years to support your theory that Richmond are close to Essendon. And don't just point to your poor on field form as the throw away argument, it does not stack up. Richmond only drew 42,000 Vs Geelong in a big game for both clubs, that, along with the Brisbane crowd just prior, proved my point.

A Richmond bloke got you out of that hole Essendon fans.

 

[smasha]

We cop it left right and centre from the media,fans continually give us crap but we are still here fighting like Tigers!


EAT EM ALIVE!

 

[Messenger]

10k would be a great number for the Tassie hawks to get through the gate!

Sold out.

 

[gaelictiogar]

If there are actually any facts to support it I would suggest that the gap between 3 and 4 is far bigger than the gap b/w 4 and the next 2 or 3.

One fact you can look at right now though is memberships.
Tiges have just broken their record and are still miles behind.
Hawks and Cats have had some crap years during the Tigers very long period of crapness and still had better m'ship figures.

The idea that there is some kind of gap between a big three and then richmond is based on what exactly?

I have been looking at attendances 1921 to 1950, the first 30 years we have figures for. Now bear in mind all the comments there has ALWAYS been a Big 3 plus Richmond:

In those 30 seasons Richmond at Punt Rd. were No. 1 best supported home team 10 times, in the top two 18 times, Top 3 24 times. Richmond were one of the top 3 80% of the time and proving that successful Tiger teams were outdrawing everyone long before we moved to the MCG.

Recently we have been number 2 as recently as 2006 and prior to that 1999. We have been top three 6 of the past 10 years.


Argument aside where is the historical sense in ruling out that record?

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

We cop it left right and centre from the media,fans continually give us crap but we are still here fighting like Tigers!


EAT EM ALIVE!

Sorry smasha, but it's been a long time since any of us witnessed any fight from the Tigers.

 

[garygee]

I always find it funny when people get upset over how many supporters their team has or hasn't got and see it as a sleight when someone suggests their support is waning etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if Richmond support is waning. Most people make their support decision as kids and not many change.
Kids support teams for approximately four main reasons:
Hereditary,
They like the colours/Mascot,
They like a player
Team success

The hereditary/family support will often fail (kids change teams) if the team is unsuccessful. Richmond have been pretty unsuccessful for a long time. I can see quite a few kids tiring of supporting a team that is mostly losing/never wins a flag. Kids like everyone else like winners.

Richmond win on the Mascot. An image of strength and ferocity. Bet it wins way more kids over than, say, a swan (sorry Sydney)

The Hero factor, Richmond have Richo but that's about it. Back in the late sixties/early seventies I can remember Francis Bourke, Royce Hart, Kevin Sheedy, Kevin Bartlet and etc. Richmond have not had a team with a bunch of Champions for a long time.

Team success. Given the lack of success over the last 20+ years it's not surprising to see waning support. People, especially kids, like winners.

If you compare (objectively) the same influences against against Hawthorn and their success over the last 20+ years that could easily explain a swing in supporter numbers.

That's my theory anyway.

 

[dave_27]

Recently we have been number 2 as recently as 2006 and prior to that 1999. We have been top three 6 of the past 10 years.

Top 2 of what?

Certainly wasnt attendances.

Like the past 25 years the tiggies were behind Essendon and Collingwood in 2006.

 

[gopies1981]

I accept partly what you say Dave and clearly Essendon have come on in leaps and bounds. Richmond's support is impossible to guage. Fact is no one knows what a couple of years of success would do for Richmond in the medium term. Our history is one of peaks and troughs. Dyer's team and the Tiger train teams of the 1970s were massively supported and that is where the legend of the huge noisy Tiger Army comes from. it is based on remembered reality. Whereas our long periods of failure in the 1950s and early 60s and since 1982 have seen us fall back.

We have huge plusses to help us. We have a massively attractive brand image with the world's most beautiful animal, an attractive jumper ( as you do ). a sense of "realness" with our past in Working class east Melbourne etc. Those will help once we finally get anywhere.

Sorry Gaelictiogar But Richmonds Supporter Base even When Winning is Not even Close to Essendon's. Collingwood is Clearly No.1, Essendon is Clearly at No.2 and Carlton is Clearly at No.3.

Richmond's Supporter base is bacically the same as Hawthorn, Geelong and St.Kilda when winning. Richmond to there Home games when winning would average 30-35,000 supporter's. Carlton would average 35-40,000 when winning, Essendon would average 40-45,000 when Winning and Collingwood would average 45-50,000 when Winning.

the 3 small melbourne based clubs Melbourne, North Melbourne and Western Bulldogs would average 20-25,000 fans when winning.

 

[aussieicon91]

I'd like to agree with the tosh factor..
Anyway if there is anything its a big 3. Richmond dont come near the other 3. They are medium along with Cats Hawks and maybe Saints when they are up and running.

Couldn't be anymore correct.

 

[dave10]

I accept partly what you say Dave and clearly Essendon have come on in leaps and bounds. Richmond's support is impossible to guage. Fact is no one knows what a couple of years of success would do for Richmond in the medium term. Our history is one of peaks and troughs. Dyer's team and the Tiger train teams of the 1970s were massively supported and that is where the legend of the huge noisy Tiger Army comes from. it is based on remembered reality. Whereas our long periods of failure in the 1950s and early 60s and since 1982 have seen us fall back.

We have huge plusses to help us. We have a massively attractive brand image with the world's most beautiful animal, an attractive jumper ( as you do ). a sense of "realness" with our past in Working class east Melbourne etc. Those will help once we finally get anywhere.

I don'g argue with any of this post Gaelictioagar.. All true. However, where we beg to differ is that Richmonds past and present are not enough to convince me that Richmond is only a resurgence away from matching Essendon for attendances.

Essendon is second only to Collingwood in drawing power in Melbourne, unfortunately playing games at Telstra Dome takes away our capacity to realistically challenge Collingwood as the best supported club in Victoria. Still, Essendon will draw 1,045,000 to its 22 games in 2008, a strong result given the club has never REALLY challenged in 2008. eg, if Essendon beat the Eagles today, Essendon V Adelaide at the Dome next Saturday afternoon would have drawn upwards of 45,000. As it turns out, 35 - 37,000 will turn up given fine weather. That's the difference of form on attendances - from a one game only perspective.

You may well say the same for Richmond this week V Hawthorn which is valid. However, my point is that if Richmond won in Adelaide today, 65,000 would have turned up to the G for a proposed Richmond V Hawthorn blockbuster next weekend. On the other hand, if Essendon beat West Coast and played Hawthorn at the MCG next weekend (in Richmonds shoes), I believe 70 - 75,000 would turn up... I think all facts on crowds indicate this would be the reality and thus the difference in pulling power of the respective Big 4 clubs.

 

[dave10]

Sorry Gaelictiogar But Richmonds Supporter Base even When Winning is Not even Close to Essendon's. Collingwood is Clearly No.1, Essendon is Clearly at No.2 and Carlton is Clearly at No.3.

Richmond's Supporter base is bacically the same as Hawthorn, Geelong and St.Kilda when winning. Richmond to there Home games when winning would average 30-35,000 supporter's. Carlton would average 35-40,000 when winning, Essendon would average 40-45,000 when Winning and Collingwood would average 45-50,000 when Winning.

the 3 small melbourne based clubs Melbourne, North Melbourne and Western Bulldogs would average 20-25,000 fans when winning.

Gopies1981, I actually think you are pretty close to the mark on this one... Where have you been the last week or so?? At least Essendon can boast about our financially superiority and strength Vs the rest in Victoria without any shadow of doubt... At least that's something!

 

[Eleftherios]

In the past when Hawthorn were down and out, they were basically forgotten, invisible, "under the radar". No one including a good chunk of their own supporters gave a toss about them.
However, when Richmond are down and out, we are still talked about.
Whether it is positive or we are bagged, it dosn't matter. People still think and talk about us. Hey even Hawthorn supporters cannot stop talking about us on bigfooty.
I think Hawthorn supporters may be slightly insecure and envious of Richmond because they know that no matter how much success they have on the field, they are still just "Hawthorn" and no one cares.

 

[gopies1981]

Gopies1981, I actually think you are pretty close to the mark on this one... Where have you been the last week or so?? At least Essendon can boast about our financially superiority and strength Vs the rest in Victoria without any shadow of doubt... At least that's something!

I've been taking some timeout from bigfooty!

 

[Dont be a lemon]

When West Coast, Freo, Adelaide or Brisbane (even Port) manage to get more than 70,000 at a home and away game at the G then they can claim they are one of the BIG four clubs.

Of course West Coast and Adelaide aren't going to get 70,000 at the MCG, they're based in different states.

The profit and funds that some of these interstate clubs speak of would be non existent if they had to compete with 7 other clubs in the one state.

What the ****? That's like saying "The Mets would be bigger than the Boston Red Sox if they didn't have to share New York with the Yankees". It's probably true, but it doesn't change the fact:

Red Sox > Mets

West Coast and Adelaide > Richmond and in some ways Carlton and Essendon

Collingwood, Essendon, Carlton and Richmond

I consider them the Victorian Big 4.

If we are talking about the whole of Australia it is simply neglectful to act like West Coast and Adelaide aren't in the Big 4 in terms of fan base and money.

 

[dave10]

I've been taking some timeout from bigfooty!

As you do...!

 

[Jumpin' Jimmy]

In the past when Hawthorn were down and out, they were basically forgotten, invisible, "under the radar". No one including a good chunk of their own supporters gave a toss about them.
However, when Richmond are down and out, we are still talked about.
Whether it is positive or we are bagged, it dosn't matter. People still think and talk about us. Hey even Hawthorn supporters cannot stop talking about us on bigfooty.
I think Hawthorn supporters may be slightly insecure and envious of Richmond because they know that no matter how much success they have on the field, they are still just "Hawthorn" and no one cares.

Hence their retreat to Antarctica

 

[gaelictiogar]

Richmond have been best supported home club 31 times and no not all were at the G. Dyer's team was the biggest crowd puller in footy. Hart's team were the biggest crowd puller in footy. The fact that we were the biggest home draw when doing well with Dyer et al shows that the late 60s resurgence would have seen us challenge Collingwood whether in Punt road or not just as we had before.These are demonstrable facts.

Yes we do struggle now vis a vis Essendon and Collingwood but history shows that when we fire we fire big time. We really shouldn't exist at all as a club with the carry on since 1982. SOS, constant disaster and infighting and yet against that background we were the second best supported home draw in the league as recently as 2006. We were a bigger home draw than the Pies as recently as 1999. That gentlemen against the backdrop of soap opera at tigerland is a sporting phenomenon as most fair minded people would agree.

 

[smasha]

Just give us some success and then we will see who's king of the jungle!

EAT EM ALIVE!

 

[gaelictiogar]

Just give us some success and then we will see who's king of the jungle!

EAT EM ALIVE!

Who knows what will happen if and when we ever fire. All that can be said with accuracy is that from the 20s to the 40s and from the late 60s to early 80s - the two periods of our sustained success - we equalled collingwood and outdid everyone else as a home draw. In the years from 1921 to 1950 at Punt road were top supported team 10 times and top two 18 times and everyone knows that in the 70s we were the first to average 50,000 to homers.

As I say who knows but all historical evidence says a Richmond regularly finalling will be huge.

 

[Hawkk]

Its difficult to get a grip on hawthorns trend support in Melbourne for inter staters since for some strange reason Freo, Port, the Crows, the lions and WCE usually get shunted off to tassie to play beore a man and a dog or in freo and ports case a man a dog and a few thousand empty seats.

No mention of Sydney?

2007 - 48398
2008 - 49527 (both greater then all Vic clubs bar Collingwood and Essendon)

FWIW, Hawthorn-Brisbane last year drew 39007 in the wet (8000 more then the best ever Richmond-Brisbane) and drew a capacity crowd on Saturday

The biggest Hawthorn-Fremantle game (39,937, only behind Essendon and Collingwood as the biggest crowd to an away Fremantle game) is a lazy 15,000 greater then the biggest ever Richmond-Fremantle crowd, admittedly it was Dunstall's farwell game. Since then we've played them twice (both at the Dome, in games the President has urged fans not to turn up in so the club wouldn't need to write a cheque to the Carlton Football Club on the back of the AFL switching venues)

 

[Hawkk]

Be interesting to see how many they get down there in Tassie this week end.

19,929 (sell out)

The second biggest ever crowd in Tasmania.

Just 10,200 less then the pathetic crowd for the 3rd vs. 5th encounter at the TD yesterday between the minnows...

In the past when Hawthorn were down and out, they were basically forgotten, invisible, "under the radar". No one including a good chunk of their own supporters gave a toss about them.
However, when Richmond are down and out, we are still talked about.
Whether it is positive or we are bagged, it dosn't matter. People still think and talk about us. Hey even Hawthorn supporters cannot stop talking about us on bigfooty.
I think Hawthorn supporters may be slightly insecure and envious of Richmond because they know that no matter how much success they have on the field, they are still just "Hawthorn" and no one cares.

Really?

Which explains why Hawthorn has always had a larger membership then Richmond (bar 2006) and had one of the highest take up in Bigfooty memberships during 2004 and 2005?

 

[Hawkk]

Your argument about Richmonds equality to Essendon is similar in substance to Hawthorn supporters claims that Hawthorn is as big as Richmond. Richmond are a well supported club, but they do not, and will not draw as well as Essendon - pound for pound, similar ladder positions - Essendon are infront.

Really, based on?

Essendon have more members, draw more people to Melbourne based games always and always feature higher up in the supporter polls.

Richmond in comparison to Hawthorn do not

The idea that there is some kind of gap between a big three and then richmond is based on what exactly?

I have been looking at attendances 1921 to 1950, the first 30 years we have figures for. Now bear in mind all the comments there has ALWAYS been a Big 3 plus Richmond:

In those 30 seasons Richmond at Punt Rd. were No. 1 best supported home team 10 times, in the top two 18 times, Top 3 24 times. Richmond were one of the top 3 80% of the time and proving that successful Tiger teams were outdrawing everyone long before we moved to the MCG.

Recently we have been number 2 as recently as 2006 and prior to that 1999. We have been top three 6 of the past 10 years.


Argument aside where is the historical sense in ruling out that record?

Yet Hawthorn - a non 'Big 4' club, has drawn more people on average to their Melbourne based games then the Big 4 Tigers ever have, surely that in itself questions whether or not a sizable gap between the clubs still exists in the 21st century?

 

[Mervyn Beasley]

So.
Any conclusions or answers to the original question yet?

 

[Hawkk]

Who knows what will happen if and when we ever fire. All that can be said with accuracy is that from the 20s to the 40s and from the late 60s to early 80s - the two periods of our sustained success - we equalled collingwood and outdid everyone else as a home draw.

So how many times have Richmond drawn 40,000+ against non Victorian clubs - where the opposition fans don't heavily inflate your numbers?

In the years from 1921 to 1950 at Punt road were top supported team 10 times and top two 18 times and everyone knows that in the 70s we were the first to average 50,000 to homers.

As I say who knows but all historical evidence says a Richmond regularly finalling will be huge.

...your home crowds today are 5,000 smaller then they were 25-30 years ago (Richmond being the only club to have a decline over this period) what does that say?